The possibility of making consciousness!

[C C]

I don't know their atomic weights but there are a total of 4 different known blood oxygen carriers!

Aside from chlorocruorin, there's a remote possibility of Spock's blood being grounded in vanadium chromagen. Which can potentially appear greenish when it's low-oxygenated. But despite the presence, there's actually little to no support for vanabins being used for oxygen transport in ascidian and tunicate circulatory systems. Thus, even less applicable to Vulcans or half-Vulcans (the latter an impossible combination without the intervention of bio-engineering substituting for a conventional fertilization process).

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Minor correction. Should read : copper (used to make blue blood cells) Haemocyanin.

excellent ground work for a conspiracy theory
alien blue bloods ruling class lived on earth for centurys controlling human civilization
this is why royal and leader groups are called blue-blood because originally they were all aliens with blue blood

 

[RainbowSingularity]

iron
copper
& hematology

big problem with the usa medical system is all actions are profit driven

if a doctor suggests a test & the patient cant afford it
...
then what ?

in theory a doctor sends a patient FOR a test
the doctor does not ask the patient if they feel like a test

THAT is a complete break down of the entire system of medicine

corrupted entirely by profit

usa propaganda global press broad casts
"usa does not negotiate with terrorist, does not pay ransoms does not negotiate"
"no dead or living soldiers will be left over seas"

but all medical is money 1st

so vaccines and drugs to save babies lifes are ridiculously expensive

...
because why
how much does that person worth
money ?
i dont understand the question when you dont tell me what i want

ahhh morals
you mean religion or politics ?

good at business bad at people ... if that were so then no such thing as trade war or trade deficit

no one needs copper
or do they ?

let me run 10k worth of medical tests on you
unles you cant get approved for the lending to pay for it
in which case
lets just wait and see what happens, here take some partly funded low cost pain killers instead

patient choice is consciousness
unles they cant afford to pay
in which case its just the cold hard world of how politics cant be controlled
and why free market capitalism needs more power

... "because" [points at slum dog baby eating poo]
https://highfivedad.com/how-to-make-money-as-a-kid/

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't disagree with that, but that is not what you posted.
It is not the copper that makes red blood cells , it is the iron (hemoglobin) that makes the blood cells red, not the copper.

What I posted is " copper (used to make red blood cells)".

Read here:
"Copper helps to form hemoglobin. It’s needed to make red blood cells."
https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/ency...rm hemoglobin,absorb iron from the intestines.

So
1] Yes, it is what I posted, and
2] I said nothing about "what makes red blood cells red"; I said "it helps make red blood cells".

Correction still unwarranted. Digression also unwarranted.

 

[Write4U]

Digression also unwarranted.

I believe it is very much related to neuron and brain function, both good and bad. Copper toxicity is not to be trifled with.

From your link:

Long-term high copper levels can lead to liver disease (cirrhosis). Wilson disease, a rare genetic issue, causes copper to build up quickly in your body. It builds up in your liver, blood, brain, and other organs. This causes cirrhosis and brain damage. You’ll need to take chelating (detoxifying) agents to get rid of the excess copper.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?contenttypeid=19&contentid=copper#

 

[Beaconator]

What I posted is " copper (used to make red blood cells)".

Read here:
"Copper helps to form hemoglobin. It’s needed to make red blood cells."
https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?contenttypeid=19&contentid=copper#:~:text=Copper helps to form hemoglobin,absorb iron from the intestines.

So
1] Yes, it is what I posted, and
2] I said nothing about "what makes red blood cells red"; I said "it helps make red blood cells".

Correction still unwarranted. Digression also unwarranted.

Are red blood cells necessary for consciousness? I see no evidence for that. If they are vital to the brain I would believe you

 

[DaveC426913]

I believe it is very much related to neuron and brain function, both good and bad. Copper toxicity is not to be trifled with.

Whether or not you have anything to add, your erroneous attempt at correcting statements that were already correct is simply argumentative and destructive to the thread.

 

[DaveC426913]

Are red blood cells necessary for consciousness? I see no evidence for that. If they are vital to the brain I would believe you

They definitely are.

No red blood cells going to the brain = no oxygen going to the brain = brain death = no consciousness.

 

[Write4U]

They definitely are.
No red blood cells going to the brain = no oxygen going to the brain = brain death = no consciousness.

That completely depends on the species. Not all blood cells are red
For a human, blue, green, or violet blood cells would be very unhealthy. OTOH for an octopus red blood cells would be very unhealthy, and octopus and squid also possess conscious brains.

That is why we have terms to identify red blood, haemoglobin or iron based red blood cells, using iron atoms as the oxygen carrier and blue blood hemocyanin or copper based blue blood cells, using copper as the oxygen carrier.. All you do is confuse the issue by generalizing.

Not all blood is red and to identify blood as always consisting of red blood cells is incorrect.

In red blood copper is a trace element and has no utility as an oxygen carrier. In blue blood iron is a trace element and has no utility as an oxygen carrier. Both are specifically identified as causal to the color of the blood cells.

If I said zinc is used to make red blood cells I'd be wrong.

Trace metals and hemoglobin metabolism
A D Garnica

Abstract

Hemoglobin is composed of two pairs of globin chains to which are attached four iron-containing metalloporphyrins. Factors regulating hemoglobin synthesis include the availability of iron and the presence of heme. Heme production occurs by enzymatic synthesis and includes a step mediated by aminolevulinic acid dehydrase, which is zinc-dependent and, thus, susceptible to the toxic effects of other metals. The intake of iron, copper, zinc, cobalt, manganese, cadmium or lead may affect hemoglobin levels by an influence on availability of iron or heme.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7018368/

When you talk about blood, just say blood. To always identify blood as red blood is wrong.

 

[DaveC426913]

eneralizing.

Not all blood is red and to identify blood as always consisting of red blood cells is incorrect.

Good thing nobody said that then!

 

[DaveC426913]

OP's first conjecture: "No conscious animal uses any element above iron to sustain their being."

This is false. All we need do is provide a single example of any conscious animal that uses any element above iron and the statement is falsified. (In fact, there are many.)

Humans use copper. In fact, they use it to help make red blood cells. So conjecture 1 is false.

Second conjecture: "Are red blood cells necessary for consciousness?"

There are plenty of animals that have other means of getting oxygen to their brains, (though there is some debate to be had as what whether they qualify as conscious). But, inasmuch as we are referring to creatures that have red blood cells, the answer is yes. Creatures with red blood cells need them because that's how oxygen is transported to the brain.

 

[exchemist]

OP's first conjecture: "No conscious animal uses any element above iron to sustain their being."

This is false. All we need do is provide a single example of any conscious animal that uses any element above iron and the statement is falsified. (In fact, there are many.)

Humans use copper. In fact, they use it to help make red blood cells. So conjecture 1 is false.

Second conjecture: "Are red blood cells necessary for consciousness?"

There are plenty of animals that have other means of getting oxygen to their brains, (though there is some debate to be had as what whether they qualify as conscious). But, inasmuch as we are referring to creatures that have red blood cells, the answer is yes. Creatures with red blood cells need them because that's how oxygen is transported to the brain.

Yes this is just Write4U's brain damage showing again.

Being Dutch, he mistranslated your English, thinking "makes red blood cells" = "makes blood cells red" and then, when his error is pointed out, he argues all kinds of shit rather than admitting he misconstrued what you said. He's a jerk.

 

[Write4U]

Good thing nobody said that then!

Copper does not make red blood cells. Zinc, cobalt, manganese, cadmium or lead do not make red blood cells .

Only iron makes red blood cells when iron atoms carry the oxygen.

Yes this is just Write4U's brain damage showing again.

And you are just showing your intractable desire to utter ad hominem once again....

 

[DaveC426913]

Copper does not make red blood cells. Zinc, cobalt, manganese, cadmium or lead do not make red blood cells .

Good thing nobody said that either. Fer cryin' out loud - are you just trolling??

Only iron makes red blood cells when iron atoms carry the oxygen.

As stated, this is not true. For someone who tries to correct others' posts so much, you are pretty sloppy with your own.

And you are just showing your intractable desire to utter ad hominem once again....

Look, nobody's coming looking for you. You're your own worst enemy.
You are so quick to try to find errors in others, you don't bother to read what's written.

You've wasted a half dozen posts 1] claiming to correct things that, in fact, didn't need correcting at all, and 2] claiming you're correcting something when in fact, you're simply adding information without negating the thing you claim to be correcting.

This is trivially obvious to everyone reading; it damages your credibility and makes you look like a fool. Every time you complain about ad homs, remember: you don't have to act like this; you choose to.

Read twice, think hard, post once.

 

[Write4U]

Good thing nobody said that either. Fer cryin' out loud - are you just trolling??

No, I was ready to drop it. I had made my point.

Then exchemist had come in and gratuitously offer another one of his ad hominems. He is the troll, not I.

It would have been gracious of you if you had acknowledged the distinction between what causes red blood and what causes other blood colors. I provided sufficient evidence that copper is not responsible for the production of red blood cells. I have not accused you of being stupid or mentally deranged.

But I am beginning to suspect exchemist is.

 

[DaveC426913]

No, I was ready to drop it. I had made my point.

You made it wrong. I pointed that out. You doubled down on being wrong.
You are not the injured party here; you are the instigator.

Then exchemist had come in and gratuitously offer another one of his ad hominems.

Then stop acting like it.

It would have been gracious of you if you had acknowledged the distinction between what causes red blood and what causes other blood colors.

It would have been gracious of you to not try to correct me (since I was correct) with something that was incorrect. You are the instigator here.

I provided sufficient evidence that copper is not responsible for the production of red blood cells.

Google hit #1: "Copper helps to form hemoglobin. It's needed to make red blood cells."

Wiki:
"Copper is involved in the formation of red blood cells..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_in_health

You are wrong.
Still.
Again.


This is why people are questioning your faculties. You post wrong stuff, and when it's pointed out, you double down with more wrong stuff. At some point, with a long history of this happening over and over again, we justifiably start to wonder if there's a root cause. It's exhausting. And it's damaging to the quality of the forum.


This is done. Continuation of this damaging sidetrack will be reported for trolling.

 

[billvon]

Copper does not make red blood cells. Zinc, cobalt, manganese, cadmium or lead do not make red blood cells .
Only iron makes red blood cells when iron atoms carry the oxygen.

Copper is one of many things needed to make red blood cells.

"Copper is a soft, reddish-orange metal. It’s an essential trace element. It’s being studied to see how it helps the body. Copper may treat some types of anemia that don’t respond to iron. Wilson disease and Menkes (kinky hair) disease are related to not being able to use copper.

Copper levels are highest in the liver and brain. Copper is also found in the kidneys, pancreas, and heart. Estrogen increases the amount of copper in your body. For this reason, copper levels are highest during pregnancy.

Copper helps to form hemoglobin. It’s needed to make red blood cells. It’s also needed for the energy production cycle of cells."

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/the-possibility-of-making-consciousness.164398/page-2

 

[Write4U]

Copper helps to form hemoglobin. It’s needed to make red blood cells. It’s also needed for the energy production cycle of cells."

Copper is needed for making blood cells. It is not responsible for the redness of hemoglobin.
Iron is needed for making blood cells. It is not responsible for the blueness of hemocyanin.

In Animal Kingdom, Blood Comes in a Rainbow of Colors
Blood isn't always red—evolution has given rise to a variety of hues.

The blue comes from a copper-rich protein called hemocyanin, which carries oxygen from the lungs to the bloodstream and then to the cells of the octopus's body.

Hemoglobin, an iron-containing protein found in the blood of other animals—including humans—serves the same oxygen-transporting function but turns blood red. Mar 12, 2015

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...od-antarctica-octopus-animals-science-colors#

Why are we wasting time on this? The way this was originally posited could have been misleading to a person not familiar with what makes hemoglobin red or what makes hemocyanin blue. I merely brought this to the attention of other readers.

 

[Beaconator]

Aside from chlorocruorin, there's a remote possibility of Spock's blood being grounded in vanadium chromagen. Which can potentially appear greenish when it's low-oxygenated. But despite the presence, there's actually little to no support for vanabins being used for oxygen transport in ascidian and tunicate circulatory systems. Thus, even less applicable to Vulcans or half-Vulcans (the latter an impossible combination without the intervention of bio-engineering substituting for a conventional fertilization process).

Glad to know fireflys are the only living creature that actually need phosphorus.

 

[Beaconator]

Yes this is just Write4U's brain damage showing again.

Being Dutch, he mistranslated your English, thinking "makes red blood cells" = "makes blood cells red" and then, when his error is pointed out, he argues all kinds of shit rather than admitting he misconstrued what you said. He's a jerk.

Fresh tendrils. Soundgarden