The truth is that empiricists are in ignorance.

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Here is an excerpt/summary from substance and shadow

Charles M. Vest, as the president of the Massachussets Institute of Technology, compiled a tiny sampling of the many things empirical science is ignorant of. A few points from his list:

science does not know how we learn and remember, nor how we think and communicate, nor how the brain stores information, nor what the relationship between language and thought is. Science does not know how living cells interact with nonliving matter. It does not know what the origin of the universe is, nor how old the universe is, nor what the universe is made of, nor what the ultimate fate of the universe will be.


Empiricists only truthfully speak of what they believe they perceive and thus what they believe they know. They are not in any position to be judgemental about other beliefs for instance, the belief in God and the survival of the soul beyond death. Yet perplexingly, famous empiricists are wont to publicly declare, as did A.J. Ayer in an address at London's Conway Hall, that the deity does not exist and there is no world to come.

I conclude with a question to which I do not know the answer. How far should our judgment of the worth of a person's life be affected by the fact that we take it to be based upon an illusion? Let us take the example of a nun, belonging to a strict order, leading a life of austerity, but serene in the performance of her devotions, confident that she is loved by her deity, and that she is destined for a blissful future in the world to come. ... The question is whether it matters that the deity in whose love she rejoices does not exist and that there is no world to come. I am inclined to say that it does matter.


The question that matters for an empiricist does not pertain to the belief of a nun. It pertains to his own belief that sense-data is the only truth. How can that be empirically proven?

In this connection, a term that crops up in recent philosophical writings is reflexivity. It comes from the Latin reflectare, to bend back. To reflexively criticize an opponent means that the critic's argument bends back to refute his own position:

Sawing off the branch one is sitting on is not generally regarded as good practice in human life, and such damaging reflexivity must always be seen as a warning that something is going wrong with our reasoning. (Roger Trigg)


For an empiricist to argue that God and the soul exist only as subjective beliefs is reflexive, for the empiricist is sunk in his own subjective belief that sense data is knowledge. Reflexivity rears its head whenever someone who believes that sense data is all we can know won't admit his belief is not knowledge. For example, how can the sceptic who says “We can't know the truth” know that his statement is the truth? In recent times, an attempt by empiricists to deal with the problem of reflexivity has resulted in statements like this:

At no stage are we able to prove that what we now know is true, and it is always possible that it will turn out to be false. Indeed, it is an elementary fact about the intellectual history of mankind that most of what has been known at one time or another has eventually turned out to be not the case. So it is a profound mistake to try to do what scientists and philosophers have almost always tried to do, namely prove the truth of a theory, or justify our belief in a theory, since this is to attempt the logically impossible.


That sums up the view of the philosopher Karl Popper, who argued that science cannot verify anything. It is only able to falsify, to disprove claims of knowledge. A truly scientific statement is one that gives a high degree of information and is subjectable to rigorous attempts to disprove it. As long as it passes the tests, it may be called knowledge, although it can never be absolutely true. Sooner or later, as testing methods advance, the statement will be proved false.

Now, science cannot test a believer's claim that God exists. Therefore science will never prove that God is false. But neither will a believer be able to prove that God is true, for according to Popper there is no way to prove any truth. So while God may exist in some way, He does not exist scientifically, hence science need not be bothered. The strategy of ignoring God statements and other dogmas as nonscience, instead of attacking them as nonsense, spares science from reflexively becoming a dogma itself.

At least, that was Popper's hope.

There is one problem, though. If Popper's theory is checked against his definition of scientific knowledge, it must be deemed unscientific. Falsifiability fails as science because of the very paradox of self-reference it was supposed to be immune to. There is no way the theory of falsifiability can test itself!

How do we know that sense data is the truth?

To rephrase the question, how do we know that what the world seems to us to be, is what the world really is?

We won't find the answer in a report on what the world seems to us to be. And a report that tells us with complete certainty that there is no truth beyond what the world seems to us to be is a report about what is outside the range of our senses. Such a report cannot be empirically true, for it does not correspond to perception.


;)
 
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Most people are in ignorance. That is why Buddha used the Sanskrit word "vedana" (normally means feelings) as a synonym of suffering. But originally the word "vedana" means knowledge.
This is very significant, "vedana" means both "suffering" and "knowledge".

So karmic feelings (Samsara), suffering, and knowledge are intimately related...

Ate from the tree of knowledge ring any bells?
 
The empiricist's dilemma regarding evidence for God or the soul is that the empiricists cannot tell anyone what is an example of empirical evidence that would indicate that God or the soul exists...yet the empiricists foolishly says "see there's no evidence, so that must mean there is no soul or God, even though I can't tell you what would be evidence of the soul or God, and even though absence of evidence when there shouldn't be evidence present doesn't indicate anything, the reason I don't believe is because there is no evidence"
 
Vitalone,

yet the empiricists foolishly says "see there's no evidence, so that must mean there is no soul or God,
Don't be such an idiot - they say no such thing.

Surely you have read enough here to have seen the frequently repeated phrase - absence of evidence is not proof of absence. Please pay attention.
 
Vitalone,

Don't be such an idiot - they say no such thing.

Surely you have read enough here to have seen the frequently repeated phrase - absence of evidence is not proof of absence. Please pay attention.

Yes they do , you should tell that yourself, atheists and materialists (empiricists) say "there's no evidence, so God and the soul don't exist" ALL the time...you're the one being an idiot...I'm the one who has to frequently point out to them the argument from ignorance or that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence...
 
Vital,

I'm the one who has to frequently point out to them the argument from ignorance or that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence...
That's because its religious dogma.
 
The empiricist's dilemma regarding evidence for God or the soul is that the empiricists cannot tell anyone what is an example of empirical evidence that would indicate that God or the soul exists...yet the empiricists foolishly says "see there's no evidence, so that must mean there is no soul or God, even though I can't tell you what would be evidence of the soul or God, .....
Stop being dishonest. You started a thread on this and you were given answers but you ignored or discarded them. Are all of your arguments based on dishonesty and straw men VitalOne?
 
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Everything that has no evidence is true. Can anybody refute this?

And no we don't know for sure whether what we perceive is true but all we can do really is find out things using our senses.

You theists on the other hand just make something up and then claim that its true because it can't be refuted.
 
Vitalone,

Don't be such an idiot - they say no such thing.

Surely you have read enough here to have seen the frequently repeated phrase - absence of evidence is not proof of absence. Please pay attention.

He might be reffering to the assertion that repeated presence of claim over long periods of time and absence of evidence of said claim becomes evidence of absence (of the claim specifically).
 
So, the way I understand it is this:

Since there are things we don't yet know about the universe, and we can never hope to prove or disprove the existence of a god scientifically, the following must be true:

1) There is definitely a god, without doubt.

2) Theists (especially trained ones) with visions are truly percieving god and are above reproach.

3) Materialistic science is the worst, most feeble attempt to gain insight into the universe.

4) "Truth" is only to be found through introspection.

5) Subjective reality is better (truer), in every way, than "objective" reality.

6) In fact, there is probably no such thing as objective reality.

7) There is no honor or sense whatsoever in looking for empirical evidence or proof of things.

8) Everything science has ever said or done is an illusion and not worth it's weight in bat guano.

9) Theists should be trusted an consulted for consensus truth on the way things really are.

What other obvious points have I forgotten?
 
BTW, did I mention that I'm a convert now?

I'm no longer going to think or investigate another aspect of the universe outside my own philosophical ruminations as informed by the wisdom of the ancients, who clearly had tons more insights (true ones!) into reality than we ever could.

All of you non-believers... accept that you know nothing. Your materialistic study of the cosmos can only tell you one thing - you're missing God. Have you found Him in rocks? In stellar dust clouds? In the fossil record? No. And you will not. Reflect on your consciousness and allow the spiritual essence of the universe to shape it into what it is meant to be - a portal to God and the truth.

Asking me to "prove" or justify this in any way will only make me chuckle. "evidence" is of the very materialistic world that I'm suggesting you abandon! All you will ever need is in you (and the BG possibly). When the truth dawns on you, you will know it.

Peace.
 
The empiricist's dilemma regarding evidence for God or the soul is that the empiricists cannot tell anyone what is an example of empirical evidence that would indicate that God or the soul exists...yet the empiricists foolishly says "see there's no evidence, so that must mean there is no soul or God, even though I can't tell you what would be evidence of the soul or God, and even though absence of evidence when there shouldn't be evidence present doesn't indicate anything, the reason I don't believe is because there is no evidence"
Completely agree.
I find the same thing true of touchy subjects like ghosts/the after life.
The evidence required to prove any of these things is never really outlined, i suspect that there is no criteria or basic level of evidence available to prove these sorts of things to some empiricists. Theyre simply 'not true' by default.
Which is fine, but then that isnt really empiricism, thats being lead by your own sensiblities and naive realism, not the evidence itself.
 
Ok but don't pretend that the problem with ghosts/afterlife/gods is the sceptics refusal to clearly outline the required evidence and not that the evidence presented is somewhere between weak and non-existent. That sounds like a dodge or an attempt to shift some burden of proof.

Were any great scientific discoveries held back because people refused to state the criteria for the evidence? (I am genuinely asking)
 
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Stop being dishonest. You started a thread on this and you were given answers but you ignored or discarded them. Are all of your arguments based on dishonesty and straw men VitalOne?
Yeah I started a thread on this, however no one could give me examples of empirical evidence....they could only give me things like "well if one day God came down and appeared to everyone at once, then I'd be convinced" or "if you revived an amputee's leg"...this is not empirical evidence of God nor a soul...try again ;)

I'm not being dishonest all..you clearly do not know what empirical evidence is...

Vital,

Wanna quote any of the seasoned skeptics here who say this?
Yeah, I can quote, your savior, Richard Dawkins:
"...because there is not a shred of evidence"
"...because there is no evidence and there never was any evidence"

Or how about you, yourself:
In the end, a god is a human created fantasy and no one can show otherwise.
ROFL!!!...what a hypocrite..

Thanks for proving my point, the atheist yet again re-confirms my supposed "strawman" arguments...ahahaha

Everything that has no evidence is true. Can anybody refute this?

And no we don't know for sure whether what we perceive is true but all we can do really is find out things using our senses.

You theists on the other hand just make something up and then claim that its true because it can't be refuted.
I never said this, your atheistic faith must be blinding you again, rather I stated that an absence of evidence when there shouldn't be evidence present doesn't indicate anything...great job, next time try to read my statements instead of giving me the typical atheistic response when anyone points out the argument from ignorance...."oh so you're saying no evidence means something is true...checkmate!!" no one's saying that, rather I'm saying just what I said, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.....
 
BTW, did I mention that I'm a convert now?

I'm no longer going to think or investigate another aspect of the universe outside my own philosophical ruminations as informed by the wisdom of the ancients, who clearly had tons more insights (true ones!) into reality than we ever could.

All of you non-believers... accept that you know nothing. Your materialistic study of the cosmos can only tell you one thing - you're missing God. Have you found Him in rocks? In stellar dust clouds? In the fossil record? No. And you will not. Reflect on your consciousness and allow the spiritual essence of the universe to shape it into what it is meant to be - a portal to God and the truth.

Asking me to "prove" or justify this in any way will only make me chuckle. "evidence" is of the very materialistic world that I'm suggesting you abandon! All you will ever need is in you (and the BG possibly). When the truth dawns on you, you will know it.

Peace.

ROFL...its the atheistic faith-based argument...where did you get that from? Rather LG is just stating that empiricism arrives to some degree of the truth, but not the actual, absolute truth...atheists really think that its the absolute truth, what a bunch of fools...

"We know that what the empirical evidence at the present time shows isn't the actual, absolute truth, and that its incomplete in many ways, but we'll only believe what the empirical evidence shows at the present time, even though we know its not the actual truth" - The Atheist

The foolish atheist admits that what they believe isn't the actual truth, but only sticks to that belief...they are rightly known as fools, knowing what they are believing to be false, yet sustaining the belief...
 
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VitalOne said:
The foolish atheist admits that what they believe isn't the actual truth, but only sticks to that belief...they are rightly known as fools, knowing what they are believing to be false, yet sustaining the belief...

So because atheists are not conceited in saying they do not have all the answers, they are fools? What is your solution to this? To invent baseless fantasy to fill the gaps, like you have? To be skeptical of something unproven is not a belief.

I think the foolish ones here are the people who make metaphysical claims and not understand the likelihood of them being false.

If I am wrong to be an atheist, then I am eager to be proven wrong. I am not arguing a position because I don't want there to be a god - rather, I am arguing against it because people can not go around making metaphysical claims based on their own imagination and expect to be respected for it.
 
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