Theists: Answer me this

N

Norsefire

Salam Shalom Salom
Registered Senior Member
Although I myself have my own reason as to why I do not think God is comparable to something like the tooth fairy, I want actual theists to try to explain

Explain to me why God and the tooth fairy are not the same thing. After all, they both have zero evidence:shrug:
 
Hmm because leaving money for a tooth is not equivalent to a universe that displays order and causality.
 
When it comes to results, the tooth fairy is ALWAYS a hit, while gods are hit and miss, mostly miss.
 
Norsefire,

Nobody is obligated to do your work for you; by that, of course, I mean that it's silly to create a thread and demand people to persuade you to their side. You seem to flip-flop vehemently on a handful of issues, especially on the topic of God. Why don't you put aside some time to independently study the topic, and then put your new ideas to test by debating people who disagree with you? It's a fool's errand to demand, for example, theists and atheists argue their side in hopes of convincing you. My advice for you would be to pick a side and, until something drastic happens, stick with it.


Kadark
 
Kadark said:
Norsefire,

Nobody is obligated to do your work for you; by that, of course, I mean that it's silly to create a thread and demand people to persuade you to their side. You seem to flip-flop vehemently on a handful of issues, especially on the topic of God. Why don't you put aside some time to independently study the topic, and then put your new ideas to test by debating people who disagree with you? It's a fool's errand to demand, for example, theists and atheists argue their side in hopes of convincing you. My advice for you would be to pick a side and, until something drastic happens, stick with it.


Kadark
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I don't flip flop on any issue. Being an agnostic simply provides me with a unique viewpoint; I understand both the atheist and theist argument, and I simply want to see their opinion and justification of that opinion.

Therefore, are you saying you are unable to explain to me why the tooth fairy and God are not the same?
 
Norsefire said:
I don't flip flop on any issue. Being an agnostic simply provides me with a unique viewpoint; I understand both the atheist and theist argument, and I simply want to see their opinion and justification of that opinion.
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You went from being a Muslim, to being an agnostic, to being somewhat of a borderline atheist. Does that sound like flip-flopping? You tell me. Essentially, what I'm trying to tell you is that you'll never find a comfortable answer to your queries unless you find your own explanations. Other people will simply offer you their views, drenched in bias; it's much more rewarding to put the extra effort in and find out which side suits your views.

Therefore, are you saying you are unable to explain to me why the tooth fairy and God are not the same?
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I think Sam's answer was succinct, meaning there is no purpose for me to elaborate. Besides, the premise of the comparison is flawed, meaning further discussion on the matter is futile.


Kadark
 
Norsefire said:
Explain to me why God and the tooth fairy are not the same thing. After all, they both have zero evidence
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I would not consider myself a theist, but I shall answer your question -

The tooth fairy is not declared to have created the Universe.
The tooth fairy is not declared to be the maintainer of the Universe.
The tooth fairy is not declared to be the one to whom to turn in order to make one's life meaningful.
The tooth fairy is not declared to be the being than whom no greater or no better being can be conceived.

But God is declared to be all that, and more.
 
The tooth fairy is not declared to have created the Universe.
The tooth fairy is not declared to be the maintainer of the Universe.
The tooth fairy is not declared to be the one to whom to turn in order to make one's life meaningful.
The tooth fairy is not declared to be the being than whom no greater or no better being can be conceived.
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This is actually neither here nor there to the reason for comparison. If we're simply looking at personal properties then of course they're different - but we're not looking at individual properties.
 
Kadark said:
You went from being a Muslim, to being an agnostic, to being somewhat of a borderline atheist. Does that sound like flip-flopping? You tell me. Essentially, what I'm trying to tell you is that you'll never find a comfortable answer to your queries unless you find your own explanations. Other people will simply offer you their views, drenched in bias; it's much more rewarding to put the extra effort in and find out which side suits your views.
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Actually after a Muslim I became a Christian for a short while, and then an agnostic. I am most certainly am not an atheist.

It's a rather interesting question that you ask. On the one hand, I feel compelled to be a theist because it is my heritage and because I really genuinly want to believe in Good and God and heaven.
On the other hand, my logical side knows that there is just no reason to believe these things. I just can't believe in God, even if I try (which I did). I still respect religion and I think it is interesting......but to me, it's no more than literature.






Kadark
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The What?:p

SnakeLord said:
This is actually neither here nor there to the reason for comparison. If we're simply looking at personal properties then of course they're different - but we're not looking at individual properties.
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Perhaps, but as I said I have my own reason as to why I believe God and the tooth fairy are simply not on the same level. No matter which way you look at it, God is a far more complex concept than the tooth fairy.

Scientifically, they can both be looked at in the same way, and that way is that both have no evidence.

However, logically, God, in being used as an explanation, deals with things we Humans know to be true: the power of intelligence and intent.
 
No matter which way you look at it, God is a far more complex concept than the tooth fairy.
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Well, that is what happens when an idea is entertained for the breadth of human existence. gods were quite simple but have over time evolved into more complex claims - as they have had to as science has caught up. Of course it all ends up as the most simplistic concept imaginable: it can do anything, knows everything, completely immaterial and beyond our understanding. It is inevitable of course that it would end up like this given that it is the only safe realm it can occupy. Everything else it once was has been mercilessly snatched away from it. No sitting on mountains, no controlling the weather etc.

However, this is still beyond the comparison - which is simply a matter of complete and total lack of evidence of the existence of typically invisible entities.

However, logically, God, in being used as an explanation, deals with things we Humans know to be true: the power of intelligence and intent.
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gods do not deal with anything - they merely serve to dismiss the question.

Regards,
 
SnakeLord said:
Well, that is what happens when an idea is entertained for the breadth of human existence. gods were quite simple but have over time evolved into more complex claims - as they have had to as science has caught up. Of course it all ends up as the most simplistic concept imaginable: it can do anything, knows everything, completely immaterial and beyond our understanding. It is inevitable of course that it would end up like this given that it is the only safe realm it can occupy. Everything else it once was has been mercilessly snatched away from it. No sitting on mountains, no controlling the weather etc.
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That is because nature does these things. I really hope you understand that by God, I do not mean a being who controls the universe, only a "being" or "intelligence" that created the universe. It is quite obvious the universe has its own set of natural laws in place. The question is, where did they come from?

However, this is still beyond the comparison - which is simply a matter of complete and total lack of evidence of the existence of typically invisible entities.
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And as I said, in this way they are comparable. The concepts, however, logically, are not.


gods do not deal with anything - they merely serve to dismiss the question.

Regards,
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Gods deal with origins.
 
No observed effects of the tooth fairy and the tooth fairy isn't necessary, however we do observe the effects of the First Cause and the First Cause is philosophically neccessary.
 
I really hope you understand that by God, I do not mean a being who controls the universe, only a "being" or "intelligence" that created the universe.
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As it stands, there's very little to work with. Out of interest though, what created that "being" or "intelligence"?

Gods deal with origins.
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Not at all. We can get into this in further depth if needs be.
 
SnakeLord said:
As it stands, there's very little to work with. Out of interest though, what created that "being" or "intelligence"?
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Anything regarding the beginning of the universe is very little to work with. However we can logically assume that either

A) The universe came to be on it's own (naturally)
B) The universe was created (caused to be)

Do you see any other possibilities?

Simply questioning the origin of this being solves nothing, though, because I could question the origin of anything and make it illogical.


Not at all. We can get into this in further depth if needs be.
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How do they not?
 
Do you see any other possibilities?
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Perhaps not, (do note I am just a fallible human).

How do they not?
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Such assertion only leads to problems. If one postulates that an entity created it, the problem arises in what created that entity. If one then asserts that such entity is eternal, the problem arises with how it could ever get to 'now' to create a universe. If one asserts that this being resides 'outside of time', the problem concerning something being atemporal arises - and this list just goes on and on.

Now, one could claim that all these same problems are true of the natural universe but then why add something to it that doesn't even begin to solve them? All that's happened is you have some questions and you've lumped something at the front of them that doesn't answer any of those questions. It is truly pointless - indeed it only makes the issue vastly more confusing. Occam would come into play here and for good reason.

Regards,
 
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