Trees are NOT alive.

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John99 said:
You are not willing to learn.

Take a person in a coma. They are living BUT they are not alive. If the creature cannot move, cannot think, cannot make decisions THEN the creature is not alive.
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Your analogies are Logical Fallacies. A person in a Coma is alive, perhaps they have machines keeping them alive perhaps they are breathing themselves, it doesn't matter if they can not move or can not think, it's only in death are they absent of sentient life.

A tree can die just like a human can, a good example is Dutch Elm disease which killed a lot of Elms in the UK. Also if you take away Food sources, Water or a stable environment you can kill trees and plants in general.

For them to Die means they must of been alive to begin with. Yes they are "Alive" as they go through Seasonal changes like people go through mood swings (obviously taking longer) and during those periods can signify reproduction (Fruit/Berries) or preparation for dealing with low levels of sunshine and frost/winter (Autumn/Fall, when the leaves fall to the ground). Obviously if the conditions for a tree are right it will grow far more than if they are wrong which also signifies it's Alive.
 
What about consciousness?

When a tree dies is it equal to a human death? Not only to another human but isnt it just different. When a pet dies is it different than when a plant dies.

We can rationalize the reasons why but it just is that way.
 
Enmos said:
Defend your position.
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This topic. I mean really! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Talk about rotten molars!

http://msp138.photobucket.com/albums/q250/miss-serious/methmouth1.jpg

[edited by stryder]
If the picture is too grotesque and people moan about it there are two options removal or turning it into a link. Obviously it can be horrible following a link when you don't know what to expect, at least however you don't have to follow it twice, unlike an embedded image in the thread.
[/ end edit]
 
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John99 said:
Yep.
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So why not just say at the outset, "By 'alive' I mean my own special definition that I made up, and which no other person on the planet uses or has ever used before me, to wit: 'sentient and/or motile'"?

The point seems to have been to engender confusion, which would seem to suggest that you are a troll, or at least that you are trolling in this case. One wonders whether you even use such a peculiar definition in everyday life, or if you only use it here, to start long arguments over semantics.
 
Pandaemoni said:
So why not just say at the outset, "By 'alive' I mean my own special definition that I made up, and which no other person on the planet uses or has ever used before me, to wit: 'sentient and/or motile'"?

The point seems to have been to engender confusion, which would seem to suggest that you are a troll, or at least that you are trolling in this case. One wonders whether you even use such a peculiar definition in everyday life, or if you only use it here, to start long arguments over semantics.
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I am not making anything up. If i see a limitation i should address it.
 
greenberg said:
This topic. I mean really! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Talk about rotten molars!
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So we should just leave John wallowing in his ignorance ?
I mean come on, this is something a five year old knows.
Also, could you pleas remove that disgusting picture from my thread ? :)
 
Enmos: this is something a five year old knows.

Maybe you learned something today then. And Greenberg does not impress me at all, he is trying to ruin the thread.
 
John99 said:
What about consciousness?

When a tree dies is it equal to a human death? Not only to another human but isnt it just different. When a pet dies is it different than when a plant dies.

We can rationalize the reasons why but it just is that way.
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But it's not that way in an objective sense. It seems that way to us because we have developed to bond to other humans and to pets in a way that we do not to plants. If you were to die, your death would be no more important to my dogs than the death of my houseplants. In fact, it would be less important to them, because they like chewing on the houseplants.

If we ever meet intelligent life from another world, they might well value the lives of the plants more than they do ours. Animals exist as parasites, feeling on plants and on one another, whereas the life of most plants does not require them to kill. A rational and objective observer might conclude that makes them superior if that observer views "killing" as a bad thing.

It is that we are evolved to value human life more than animal life, and animal life more than plant life, it is not that human life *is* in a fundamental sense, more important than animals, or animal life than plant life.
 
It is that we are evolved to value human life more than animal life, and animal life more than plant life, it is not that human life *is* in a fundamental sense, more important than animals, or animal life than plant life.
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That is an opinion. I think it is a distortion of reality though.
 
Enmos said:
So we should just leave John wallowing in his ignorance ?
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No, but I think a different strategy would be necessary to successfully turn someone's mind around.

Direct confrontation is precarious and often backfires, causing more damage than benefit as each party is then often even more cemented in their position.

Instead, a strategy of gradual concessions can lead a long way (ie. you first find out what you have in common with the other person, set the terms for discussion, and then take incremental steps from there). This strategy, however, requires a lot of general communication and discussion skills, dedication, knowledge of how things truly are, and a sincere concern for the other person's welfare.
Without that, there is ... just the usual battle of wills over the internet, a terribly pathetic thing. Which is why there are discussion forums!
;)
 
greenberg said:
No, but I think a different strategy would be necessary to successfully turn someone's mind around.

Direct confrontation is precarious and often backfires, causing more damage than benefit as each party is then often even more cemented in their position.

Instead, a strategy of gradual concessions can lead a long way (ie. you first find out what you have in common with the other person, set the terms for discussion, and then take incremental steps from there). This strategy, however, requires a lot of general communication and discussion skills, dedication, knowledge of how things truly are, and a sincere concern for the other person's welfare.
Without that, there is ... just the usual battle of wills over the internet, a terribly pathetic thing. Which is why there are discussion forums!
;)
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When are you running your next course ?
 
greenberg said:
No, but I think a different strategy would be necessary to successfully turn someone's mind around.

Direct confrontation is precarious and often backfires, causing more damage than benefit as each party is then often even more cemented in their position.

Instead, a strategy of gradual concessions can lead a long way (ie. you first find out what you have in common with the other person, set the terms for discussion, and then take incremental steps from there). This strategy, however, requires a lot of general communication and discussion skills, dedication, knowledge of how things truly are, and a sincere concern for the other person's welfare.
Without that, there is ... just the usual battle of wills over the internet, a terribly pathetic thing. Which is why there are discussion forums!
;)
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I tried it another way before I made this thread. It occurred to me that only facts and a multitude of others disagreeing with him would make him see his error.
I guess I was wrong..

To be honest I was quite shocked when I found out he was dead serious about it.. I can still hardly believe he's holding on to it too :shrug:

Edit: Read this entire thread and see how many questions and posted information about trees he just ignores.
 
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