Using sewage sludge to fertilize crops

[billvon]

Because I have no $$$. And that is the bottom line for most people. About the the single mother earning minimum wage, you haven't got a clue, have you? Prius? Leaf? She's barely making the health insurance payments and sure as hell can't get a car loan!

Well, if she can't afford a car, she's not going to be burning much gas anyway. (Cheapest regular car - $13,000, Versa. Cheapest EV after incentives - $15,000, iMev.)

But that single mother isn't going to be buying a new car anyway. She's going to be buying used - and nowadays hybrids, pluggables and pure electrics are available used.

There is a lot of promising activity, yes. But it's too random, too late and not directed at the people who most need it.

Well, now you are talking about two different things. People who are needy and deserving, and reducing oil usage and environmental impact. And those often aren't the same - keeping that mother of two on the bus is a better choice for the environment, but she might not see it that way.

 

[Jeeves]

... that single mother isn't going to be buying a new car anyway.

Of course not. That's why the public transit needs to be clean, cheap and efficient. Right now, she's having to pay hefty fares for a cramped, uncomfortable 2-hour commute, dropping off her children at daycare or school en route.
https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/as-u.s.-transit-fares-increase-europe-starts-to-make-it-free.
The more poor people you have, and the harder it is to get around without a car, the longer all those old guzzlers and smokers will stay on the roads, all over the world. As long as they do, the oil companies are in business. As long as military vehicles use diesel; as long as airplanes keep flying, they'll be in business. That's why transportation strategy needs to be co-ordinated with other efforts - like cutting down everybody's traveling time by instituting day-care and hot lunch programs in work-places and schools for example. Community gardens, retrofitting of homes for heating and cooling, water purification, local energy and food production. And a huge reduction of waste.
Capitalism thrives on waste. That's why it has been left too late.
The solution would require media communication and government intervention and employer co-operation. And some funding - but in the long term, such programs would save a lot of money, as well as inconvenience.

 

[iceaura]

And hydrogen fuel cell cars. And methane cars, which can be powered from biogas. And E85 cars.

The hydrogen and methane cars are not on the market. The E85 cars are mostly very high buck, and run on fossil fuel in the US (ethanol in the US is made industrially from corn, basically a fossil fuel).

But that single mother isn't going to be buying a new car anyway. She's going to be buying used - and nowadays hybrids, pluggables and pure electrics are available used.

She can't afford a cheap car. She certainly can't afford a used hybrid or electric car - those are expensive, require charging at home, can't be fixed by her neighbor, etc.

 

[billvon]

The hydrogen and methane cars are not on the market.

The hydrogen Mirai is on the market and has been for over a year. The Honda Civic GX (methane) has been on the market since 1998.

The E85 cars are mostly very high buck

There are almost 20 million flex-fuel cars on the road in the US. There are also a very large number of people who have purchased E85 cars and don't even know it. (In 2005, 68% of drivers of flex-fuel cars were not aware that they had purchased that option.) They are the same price as regular cars, and car manufacturers are required to sell a certain number of them. Thus they get sold as regular cars. So far I have ended up in E85 rental cars three times. No notice, they're just regular vehicles in the company's pool of cars.

and run on fossil fuel in the US (ethanol in the US is made industrially from corn, basically a fossil fuel).

Well, by that standard, solar, wind and geothermal are also basically fossil fuels.

She can't afford a cheap car. She certainly can't afford a used hybrid or electric car - those are expensive, require charging at home, can't be fixed by her neighbor, etc.

Like I said, if she can't afford even a cheap car, then no problem; she's not burning any gas.

 

[billvon]

The more poor people you have, and the harder it is to get around without a car, the longer all those old guzzlers and smokers will stay on the roads, all over the world. As long as they do, the oil companies are in business. As long as military vehicles use diesel; as long as airplanes keep flying, they'll be in business.

And as long as we need plastics, medicines, food and water, the oil companies will stay in business. That's fine. The goal is not to put anyone out of business - the goal is to reduce our need for fossil fuels until we get to the point where the environment can handle the load we are putting on it.

That's why transportation strategy needs to be co-ordinated with other efforts - like cutting down everybody's traveling time by instituting day-care and hot lunch programs in work-places and schools for example. Community gardens, retrofitting of homes for heating and cooling, water purification, local energy and food production.

Sure. And those gardens will need fertilizer. And those daycare programs will require more money, which means less money for the mother of two who is working two jobs. (Perhaps she could take a third?)

For every problem out there, there is a solution that is simple, elegant - and wrong. All the above have been tried with varying degrees of success. None have had the effect of ending dependence on oil; indeed, in some cases, the amount of fossil fuels used has increased.

 

[Jeeves]

And as long as we need plastics, medicines, food and water, the oil companies will stay in business. That's fine. The goal is not to put anyone out of business - the goal is to reduce our need for fossil fuels until we get to the point where the environment can handle the load we are putting on it.

That was an okay goal fifty years ago. We don't have time to phase out fossil fuel, and the environment can't take what we're putting in it and on it now, and it's not diminishing; it's increasing, with a billion more middle-class wannabes buying more disposable garbage every year. There is nothing fine about this.

Sure. And those gardens will need fertilizer.

Which we produce aplenty, every day. Compost, too.

And those daycare programs will require more money,

Why? Money doesn't look after children - people do.

the mother of two who is working two jobs. (Perhaps she could take a third?)

From whom? There are too many people with no jobs at all.

For every problem out there, there is a solution that is simple, elegant - and wrong. All the above have been tried with varying degrees of success. None have had the effect of ending dependence on oil; indeed, in some cases, the amount of fossil fuels used has increased.

Of course. that's why we're doomed.

 

[billvon]

That was an okay goal fifty years ago. We don't have time to phase out fossil fuel

Agreed - and we never will.

and the environment can't take what we're putting in it

Right now that's true. Which is why we have to reduce our use of fossil fuels (specifically the higher-carbon varieties.)

and on it now, and it's not diminishing; it's increasing, with a billion more middle-class wannabes buying more disposable garbage every year. There is nothing fine about this.

Agreed. My "fine" comment was that we need oil, will for centuries, and we have companies that can provide it. THAT is fine.

Why? Money doesn't look after children - people do.

Yes. And those people need money. The people looking after the children in the daycare centers have their own problems - kids, getting to work, rent etc. They can't work for free.

Of course. that's why we're doomed.

Then why bother recycling or doing all that other stuff?

 

[iceaura]

The hydrogen Mirai is on the market and has been for over a year. The Honda Civic GX (methane) has been on the market since 1998.

The Mirai cannot be fueled outside of a few counties more than 1500 miles from my garage, or purchased from the lot of any dealer in my State. The Honda Civic has canceled its CNG option, and never sold to anyone but fleets anyway - no one else could keep them fueled. Our mom here has no access to them, and very few people do.

" - - (ethanol in the US is made industrially from corn, basically a fossil fuel)."
Well, by that standard, solar, wind and geothermal are also basically fossil fuels.

No, those fuel sources produce much larger amounts of power than would be available from the fossil fuel they use in production. There's a net gain. There is comparatively little - often no - net gain from ethanol produced in the US from corn.

There are almost 20 million flex-fuel cars on the road in the US. There are also a very large number of people who have purchased E85 cars and don't even know it. (In 2005, 68% of drivers of flex-fuel cars were not aware that they had purchased that option.) They are the same price as regular cars, and car manufacturers are required to sell a certain number of them.

High buck regular cars. And E85 is heavily fossil fuel.

Like I said, if she can't afford even a cheap car, then no problem; she's not burning any gas.

What she might be able to afford is a used gas guzzler. And that's what she will be buying, if the buses and trains don't run in her town.

All the above have been tried with varying degrees of success.

Not really. Demos, pilots, inefficient experiments - nothing like the government subsidies to the oil companies, or the infrastructure devoted to extra and auxiliary gas cars.

 

[timojin]

That was an okay goal fifty years ago. We don't have time to phase out fossil fuel, and the environment can't take what we're putting in it and on it now, and it's not diminishing; it's increasing, with a billion more middle-class wannabes buying more disposable garbage every year. There is nothing fine about this.
Which we produce aplenty, every day. Compost, too.

Why? Money doesn't look after children - people do.

From whom? There are too many people with no jobs at all.

Of course. that's why we're doomed.

 

[timojin]

One thing we can star with by eliminating robots , then reduce automation
We are doomed when we think we are doomed and let our arms drop.
////////////
Lets stop building suburbs and consuming unnecessary land with highways , instead paving land with black top let the earth absorb water from the rain to refill aquifers .
I was working in the 1970 there was an estimate the fossil fuel was going to run of by 2050 . Windmills , solar energy were only novelty. Fusion was supposedly our trump card ( so far only talk for several decades )Water was good from the faucets , now we need to package every pint of drinking water

 

[Jeeves]

Agreed - and we never will.
Yes. And those people need money.

Nobody needs money! It's a totally artificial, arbitrary medium of exchange, pegged to nothing tangible. It causes a worldful of trouble and strife. If We couldn't outgrow and replace it by the second millennium, it'll be too late. .... ooops, overslept

Then why bother recycling or doing all that other stuff?

Old habits. Started when there was still hope and can't seem to find motivation to become a wastrel.

 

[billvon]

The Mirai cannot be fueled outside of a few counties more than 1500 miles from my garage, or purchased from the lot of any dealer in my State. The Honda Civic has canceled its CNG option, and never sold to anyone but fleets anyway - no one else could keep them fueled. Our mom here has no access to them, and very few people do.

This is the familiar "but I NEED a big truck to drive to work!" argument, followed by a list of all the reasons any other vehicle is completely impractical.

Yes, no one vehicle will work for everyone. But these vehicles are available now, and will be part of the solution.

No, those fuel sources produce much larger amounts of power than would be available from the fossil fuel they use in production. There's a net gain. There is comparatively little - often no - net gain from ethanol produced in the US from corn.

Agreed. So use Brazilian ethanol, which has a much higher EROEI.

High buck regular cars.

The Dodge Dart is available in an E85 version and is less than $16K.

What she might be able to afford is a used gas guzzler.

She is going to buy the cheapest car she can. If that's a gas guzzler because that's all that's available, then that is what she will buy. If that's a ten year old Leaf, then that's what she will buy. That's why there is value in getting those cars out there - because in ten years they will be the cheap cars she can afford.

 

[billvon]

Nobody needs money! It's a totally artificial, arbitrary medium of exchange, pegged to nothing tangible.

It is pegged to food, and rent, and salaries.

However, if you prefer, call it "labor hour vouchers" or "food quantity index units" or "employment indicator markers" or anything else you like. People need them to live.

Old habits. Started when there was still hope and can't seem to find motivation to become a wastrel.

Well, if you enjoy it . . . .

 

[iceaura]

Agreed. So use Brazilian ethanol, which has a much higher EROEI

There are many nice possibilities for the distant future, and we all hope for the best. Meanwhile - - -

The Dodge Dart is available in an E85 version and is less than $16K.

I'm not sure the current economic situation faced by the lower end of the US economy has quite penetrated, here.

She is going to buy the cheapest car she can. If that's a gas guzzler because that's all that's available, then that is what she will buy. If that's a ten year old Leaf, then that's what she will buy. That's why there is value in getting those cars out there - because in ten years they will be the cheap cars she can afford.

So in ten years they will start to be on the market, if the repair and maintenance infrastructure has developed well enough. Not the methane, or hydrogen, or probably the electric (the expense of the battery, barring extraordinary advance, will keep them high end used) - just the fossil fuel heavy US ethanol burners, and the fossil fuel burning hybrids that have held up and proved repairable.

And in that ten years, that is going to be the major societal response to the fossil fuel problem?

 

[Jeeves]

It is pegged to food, and rent, and salaries.

No. It is traded for food, rent, labour, etc. Its value is determined by a complex system of swaps and cons and deals and debts.
Any medium of exchange could be traded for food and work, and there are thriving non-currency-based economies. They are, perforce, small, because they have to operate below the dominant monetary system, but they are far more equitable. You'd never barter 1000 hours of your work for one hour of some blowhard who's never done it telling you how to do it - but that's exactly the relationship between productive worker and executive in a corporation.

However, if you prefer, call it "labor hour vouchers" or "food quantity index units" or "employment indicator markers"

Any of those would be fine, as long as they were logged by an honest computer program.

People need them to live..

No. People need air, water, food, shelter, sometimes help, sometimes company, a little fun. Put dollar values on these things and the whole system goes exactly where it's gone.

 

[billvon]

No. It is traded for food, rent, labour, etc.

Correct. And what people are willing to pay for such things pegs its value.

A $100 bill has no inherent value. It's just a piece of fancy paper. But it can be used to buy a 22 inch 1920x1080 monitor at Best Buy. Or 33 gallons of milk, or a night in a cheap hotel. Those things peg its value.

Any medium of exchange could be traded for food and work, and there are thriving non-currency-based economies.

Absolutely. It could be money or credit or bitcoins or avocados. Money is easier to carry than avocados.

They are, perforce, small, because they have to operate below the dominant monetary system, but they are far more equitable. You'd never barter 1000 hours of your work for one hour of some blowhard who's never done it telling you how to do it

Of course you would - if the result is that you get lots of hours of credit for those 1000 hours of work.

To put it another way, if your 1000 hours of labor dealing with the blowhard would end up paying for a car, and your other alternative was 1000 hours of labor working for a very nice guy who just told you to play video games all day, but those same 1000 hours would barely buy you a bicycle - you'd work for the blowhard.

No. People need air, water, food, shelter, sometimes help, sometimes company, a little fun. Put dollar values on these things and the whole system goes exactly where it's gone.

Yep. Capitalism is the worst economic system that's ever been tried - with the exception of every OTHER system that's ever been tried.

 

[billvon]

I'm not sure the current economic situation faced by the lower end of the US economy has quite penetrated, here.

And I am not sure you understand the relationship between the price of a new car and the price of a used car.

So in ten years they will start to be on the market, if the repair and maintenance infrastructure has developed well enough.

Well, five years for the Prius. The Honda GX in two years.

And in that ten years, that is going to be the major societal response to the fossil fuel problem?

No. That will just be one small part. Others will be the increase in solar and wind generation (displacing coal) increases in fuel economy for cars, aircraft, trains and industrial processes and increasingly stringent EPA rules.

 

[Jeeves]

[traded, not pegged] Correct. And what people are willing to pay for such things pegs its value.

People are willing.... Like they had a choice about what necessities cost! Jeebus! What fantasy island are you living on?

Of course you would - if the result is that you get lots of hours of credit for those 1000 hours of work.

No, you get the exact same amount of credit for 1000 hours [about four months] of sweating and going deaf at a machine that may take your arm off if you get tired and lean over too far as your boss gets for 1 hour of sipping Glenlivet and smoking a Havana with his feet on a 17th century rosewood desk in a corner office 17 floors above.
It's what you were willing to trade for.

 

[billvon]

People are willing.... Like they had a choice about what necessities cost!

Of course they do. Borden milk too expensive? Get the Safeway version. They might use rBST and thus be a bit cheaper. What? You don't like rBST? Then pay more and get the Horizon milk.

People have a choice.

No, you get the exact same amount of credit for 1000 hours [about four months] of sweating and going deaf at a machine that may take your arm off if you get tired and lean over too far as your boss gets for 1 hour of sipping Glenlivet and smoking a Havana with his feet on a 17th century rosewood desk in a corner office 17 floors above.

So your 1000 hours of hard work should be worth the same as some kid who plays video games for 1000 hours? (removing the boss-hate since it's irrelevant)

If that's the case, why wouldn't everyone just play video games for 1000 hours?

 

[Jeeves]

Lucky you, to live in a sludge-free world-view!