What God Wants

[ggazoo]

I'm trying to bring in a bit of a fresh perspective to things around here so bare with me.

I just finished reading a very enlightening book entitled "What God Wants" by Neale Donald Walsch. While trying to do his book justice here would be a disservice, I wanted to pass along some of his (not just his) ideas and see what everyone thought.

There are many examples of what many people feel is "What God Wants":

Marriage
Remain abstinent until wedlock. Once married, the wife must be obedient to the husband, and the man is the head of the house. This is what God Wants.

Homosexuality
Any sexual activities between a man and a man or a woman and a woman is unatrural. Partake in these and go to Hell. This is what God Wants.

Money
Society discourages wealth: "Money is the root of all evil". So, do something nobel, and get little or no monetary reward. This is what God Wants.

Free Will
People have been told that if they do not do what God asks of them, then they'll burn for it for all of eternity. This is what God Wants.

Suffering
God has been hurt by the weakness and wickedness of humanity, and in order to set things straight, people must suffer, believing that they will be rewarded in the afterlife. This is what God Wants.

These are just a few examples of what major religions around the world have taught humanity. Mr. Walsch offers a very refreshing and eye opening view as to exactly what God wants:



Nothing.



Nadda, zip, zlich. Think about it: Why would an omnipotent, omniscient being like God want anything? The best reason to believe in God is that we don't need Him. He made us capable enough to get along just fine without Him. That's the beauty of it.

The very notion of God not wanting anything opens up a whole new way wave of questions:

Why would God make human beings responsible for getting what He wants? Would you make your children responsible for your happiness?

Why would God want us to surrender to Him, worship Him, and pay homage to Him... only to be sent to Hell for all of eternity if we don't? Why would God punish us so horribly for our confusion and weakness?

Why would God ask others to kill in His name?

Take this site. Are infidels destined to Hell because they speak their mind?

We are told to fear God, thus convincing ourselves that being unhappy is what makes us happy. Why? Why would God want us to fear Him? Fear and guilt are the only enemies of humanity.

And here's a biggie: What would happen if all the religions in the world finally realized that God wanted nothing? Everyone thinks that they have God on their side. This is why people fly airplanes into buildings shouting "Allah is great!", while others drop bombs on innocent people paid for by money that's imprinted with "In God We Trust". We have world leaders doing things according to their own beliefs as to what they think what God wants.

Look at the problems of the world today. We say that all of our problems are either political or economic, but they're not. They're spiritual. We have a major spiritual problem in the world right now. If there is only One God under many varied religions, then we have to realize that we are all part of a larger group called humanity. Why did we just shake our heads at the people massacred in Dafur by other people, but rush to the aid of thousands in Indonesia when the Tsunami hit? Were we guilty as a human race and wanted to turn our heads at Darfur? It makes sense since we rushed to Indonesia, which was a natural disaster (not intentionally caused by mankind). People claim that they want Oneness with God and other people, but we can't experience that if we deny it; hence the "Separation Theology" that religions have taught.

Religions have taught that humanity's imperfections have caused them to be separate from God. That we must live a good life, and follow a book of rules in order to find our way back home to the 'promised land'. God wants humans to be separate from Him and work their way back "home" (to Heaven, as it where). Is this want God wants? No.

Most of the major religions will say that there is only one God. There are many religions who say that even attempting this train of thought that "God Wants Nothing" is blashemy, but it's not.

The problem is that society refuses to tolerate any new ideas on faith - or even question it for that matter. No new thought is allowed. If humanity had taken that train of thought, then virtually no progress in science, technology or medicine would have been made in the past 300 years or so. We're trying to build a 21st century reality with 1st century thinking.

You can't take the Bible literally. It there's to provide historical context within larger, timeless messages. If we try to apply our history to today, we'll most likely repeat it.

For example, I mentioned homosexuality. About 8 years ago, a young man by the name of Matthew Shepard was beaten to death in Wyoming. Reverend Fred Phelps went out of his way to visit the young man's funeral and yell "God hates fags!" And, if that wasn't enough, He went as far as to produce a monument in the young man's name that read:

"Matthew Shepard entered Hell on October 12, 1998, at age 21 in defiance of God's warning"

Disgusting. That is the ultimate proof of what God does NOT want.

But here's an example of some open thinking, coming from none other than the pope. In 1999, he describe Hell as not a literal place of fiery torture, but as a situation where someone may find themselves separated from God. He said "fire" was metaphorical. Are there people in Hell though? That's something we can't know.

Now one of the weaker responses that I expect on this particular site is (and I'll say it now to save you the trouble): "God wants nothing, because God does not exist". However, that logic is faulty. The 2 basic questions of Theology are:

1. Who and what is God?
2. What does God want, and why?

Proposed answers:

1. God is life and everything in life. Life is the Alpha and the Omega, the All in All. There is nothing that IS that It is not. If this is not the definition of God, then what is?

2. God wants nothing because God has, and is, everything that God could possible want.

This is a site that argues about the existence of God, among others things, as it should. But the human brain hasn't developed to the point where we can truly understand God.

Moses. Confucius. Siddhartha Gautama (Budda). Jesus of Nazareth. Migammed. Patanjai. Baha'u'llah. Jala al-Din Rumi, Paramahansa Yoganda, Joseph Smith These are all Messengers from God. But many of us has been told that only one of these is the right one. Choose the "wrong" one, and you'll go to Hell.

So which one is it? It's all of them. Words do their best job by falling away:

God is being what God is.
God is being what God?
God is being what?
God is being.
God is.
God.

Like I said, it's hard to explain everything that I mentioned without reading the book, but here's hoping that it is cause for an open and unbiased discussion.

Thoughts?

 

[KennyJC]

I agree with almost all of this post, and wish the theists of this world would follow those kind of teachings. But...

Now one of the weaker responses that I expect on this particular site is (and I'll say it now to save you the trouble): "God wants nothing, because God does not exist". However, that logic is faulty. The 2 basic questions of Theology are:

1. Who and what is God?
2. What does God want, and why?

Proposed answers:

1. God is life and everything in life. Life is the Alpha and the omega, the All in All. There is nothing that IS that It is not. If this not the the definition of God, then what is?

2. God wants nothing because God has, and is, everything that God could possible want.

Semantics. Still pressuming the existence of something without evidence and without knowing what it is. By all accounts it is nothingess.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

I agree with a lot of what you say ggzoo. God is not the big daddio.

I believe our origin and destination - our home - is God, that is why I wish to get there. This might require letting go the pursuit of mundane goals and attachments, to "seek first the kingdom of heaven". It is I who will make certain decisions as the way to draw closer to God is revealed, it's not God who wants things from me.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Humans want a God...so they make one...what God wants is illogical. This just about sums it up:

Gods are made by fools like me
But only God can make a tree,
And only fools like me, you see
Can make a God that makes a tree.

 

[Prince_James]

Crom laughs at your sensible pluralism!

 

[lightgigantic]

ggazoo

These are just a few examples of what major religions around the world have taught humanity. Mr. Walsch offers a very refreshing and eye opening view as to exactly what God wants:

Nothing.

Then why would god bother to offer directions in the form of scripture? And if you argue that scripture is a concoction where did you arrive at the concept of God?

Nadda, zip, zlich. Think about it: Why would an omnipotent, omniscient being like God want anything?

He doesn't want anything - out of magnaniminity he desires our welfare though.

The best reason to believe in God is that we don't need Him. He made us capable enough to get along just fine without Him. That's the beauty of it.

Then we seem to be doing a fine job of messing up things in our god given independence

The very notion of God not wanting anything opens up a whole new way wave of questions:

Much like the fresh inspiration a highway bandit feels when he receives the news that the king and his law enforcement agencies are in chaos

Why would God make human beings responsible for getting what He wants? Would you make your children responsible for your happiness?

God doesn't want anything from us - but then parents often give their children lots of advice and counsel how to live in this world and be successful

Why would God want us to surrender to Him, worship Him, and pay homage to Him... only to be sent to Hell for all of eternity if we don't? Why would God punish us so horribly for our confusion and weakness?

The point is that in the absence of being submissive to god we become submissive to inferior things which lead us to situations of regret - even in this world there are many places you don't want to go and ways how to get there

Why would God ask others to kill in His name?

Generally god asks us that we control our senses and teaches us how to keep our pants on - if we cannot obey that simple request it is unlikely we will be instructed in anything higher

Take this site. Are infidels destined to Hell because they speak their mind?

Generally one goes to hell by activities and one's activities are shaped by one's mind -

We are told to fear God, thus convincing ourselves that being unhappy is what makes us happy. Why? Why would God want us to fear Him? Fear and guilt are the only enemies of humanity.

obedience is the first stage of love - fear and guilt are natural responses to improper behaviour - for instance if I posted images of you having sex with your mother (assuming you performed such an act) on the net how would you feel?

And here's a biggie: What would happen if all the religions in the world finally realized that God wanted nothing?

Then I guess they would just focus on what they want (which is what many people do in the name of religion anyway) and cause more problems in the world.

Everyone thinks that they have God on their side. This is why people fly airplanes into buildings shouting "Allah is great!", while others drop bombs on innocent people paid for by money that's imprinted with "In God We Trust". We have world leaders doing things according to their own beliefs as to what they think what God wants.

I guess it indicates that people in general have no idea what god wants - the responsibility falls on the shoulders of religious leaders (ie it raises the question who is a qualified or unqualified religious leader)

Look at the problems of the world today. We say that all of our problems are either political or economic, but they're not. They're spiritual. We have a major spiritual problem in the world right now. If there is only One God under many varied religions, then we have to realize that we are all part of a larger group called humanity. Why did we just shake our heads at the people massacred in Dafur by other people, but rush to the aid of thousands in Indonesia when the Tsunami hit?

Therefore it behooves us to properly understand what god wants and not labour under the illusion that the universe has no teleological significance (ie come under the influence of the bodily concept of life and laugh at the enemy turned in to another pile of "haa - haa")

Were we guilty as a human race and wanted to turn our heads at Darfur? It makes sense since we rushed to Indonesia, which was a natural disaster (not intentionally caused by mankind). People claim that they want Oneness with God and other people, but we can't experience that if we deny it; hence the "Separation Theology" that religions have taught.

I am not sure how you would go from this point to unifying the world - since according to these statements it is very difficult to perceive th eunifyng picture of god, and it would be expected that people would just fill the vacuum with their own material desires

Religions have taught that humanity's imperfections have caused them to be separate from God. That we must live a good life, and follow a book of rules in order to find our way back home to the 'promised land'. God wants humans to be separate from Him and work their way back "home" (to Heaven, as it where). Is this want God wants? No.

Its what we want - if we were not seperated from god there would be no more opportunity for us to act like a buffoon - which s the special opporunity that the material world grants

Most of the major religions will say that there is only one God. There are many religions who say that even attempting this train of thought that "God Wants Nothing" is blashemy, but it's not.

Its virtually identical with atheism (just see the hearty approval from the staunch atheists your thread has awoken) - By saying god wants nothing it is just like saying there is no god, therefore I can do whatever the hell I want - It doesn't address the issue of reactions to our activities, that are visible even in this world, what to speak of the next

The problem is that society refuses to tolerate any new ideas on faith - or even question it for that matter. No new thought is allowed. If humanity had taken that train of thought, then virtually no progress in science, technology or medicine would have been made in the past 300 years or so. We're trying to build a 21st century reality with 1st century thinking.

On the contrary there is heaps of discussion in theism - that aside, I don't know why you make that statement coming from a secular state.

You can't take the Bible literally. It there's to provide historical context within larger, timeless messages. If we try to apply our history to today, we'll most likely repeat it.

So you are trying to say that you have no qualification to understand scripture?

For example, I mentioned homosexuality. About 8 years ago, a young man by the name of Matthew Shepard was beaten to death in Wyoming. Reverend Fred Phelps went out of his way to visit the young man's funeral and yell "God hates fags!" And, if that wasn't enough, He went as far as to produce a monument in the young man's name that read:

"Matthew Shepard entered Hell on October 12, 1998, at age 21 in defiance of God's warning"

Disgusting. That is the ultimate proof of what God does NOT want.

So just to unpack this argument - once there was a priest in america, perhaps of the fanatical variety that is not too well steeped in philosophy, displayed inappropriate behaviour at the funeral of a homosexual - this indicates (I'm not sure what) that all priests exhibit inappropriate behaviour or that there are no boundaries for the proper and improper applicationof the sexual act ????

But here's an example of some open thinking, coming from none other than the pope. In 1999, he describe Hell as not a literal place of fiery torture, but as a situation where someone may find themselves separated from God. He said "fire" was metaphorical. Are there people in Hell though? That's something we can't know.

How do you know that you can't know unless you are omniscient and can read into the future - in otherwords even just to hypothetically accept the existence of an omniscient god, is there any reason why he cannot bestow what is unknowable?

Now one of the weaker responses that I expect on this particular site is (and I'll say it now to save you the trouble): "God wants nothing, because God does not exist". However, that logic is faulty. The 2 basic questions of Theology are:

1. Who and what is God?
2. What does God want, and why?

Proposed answers:

1. God is life and everything in life. Life is the Alpha and the Omega, the All in All. There is nothing that IS that It is not. If this is not the definition of God, then what is?

In otherwords god doesn't exist outside of the parts - a fine way to say he doesn't exist - doesn't explain how life appeared though.

2. God wants nothing because God has, and is, everything that God could possible want.

This is a site that argues about the existence of God, among others things, as it should. But the human brain hasn't developed to the point where we can truly understand God.

God disagrees apparently, at least according to the testimonies of various saints and theological philosophers.

Moses. Confucius. Siddhartha Gautama (Budda). Jesus of Nazareth. Migammed. Patanjai. Baha'u'llah. Jala al-Din Rumi, Paramahansa Yoganda, Joseph Smith These are all Messengers from God. But many of us has been told that only one of these is the right one. Choose the "wrong" one, and you'll go to Hell.

So which one is it? It's all of them. Words do their best job by falling away:

So in otherwords if I present you with several medicines and I say if you don't take one of these brands, which all have similar properties but exist under different licensing agreements, you will get sick, suddenly you are bewildered. The point is that if you can understand the qualities by which an object exists you can dtermine its truthfulness or falsity - Do you think being a christan (or any other "denomination" ) is a process as simple as putting your backside on the seat of any building that has a signboard that says "church" out the front?

God is being what God is.

Unfortunately you have no idea what god is, particularly if you cannot determine his value system.

God is being what God?
God is being what?
God is being.
God is.
God.

So if someone asks you who you are and you say "I am what I am" is that a very intelligent response? Do you expect people to take you seriously?

Like I said, it's hard to explain everything that I mentioned without reading the book, but here's hoping that it is cause for an open and unbiased discussion.

Thoughts?

'nuff said

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

I'm trying to bring in a bit of a fresh perspective to things around here so bare with me.

I just finished reading a very enlightening book entitled "What God Wants" by Neale Donald Walsch. While trying to do his book justice here would be a disservice, I wanted to pass along some of his (not just his) ideas and see what everyone thought.

Thoughts?

God is misrepresented in religion however it is wrong to say he does not want something:

He wants us to improve

hence EVOLUTION

evolution of body

and mind and spirit

all things 'evolve' when we stop evolving are we perfect or on the brink of extinction ?

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Evolution is not about progress.

Don't use science for your religious agenda please.

 

[The Devil Inside]

as george carlin said many years ago:

maybe the whole purpose of humanity is to produce ridiculous amounts of plastic for the earth to use to create a new ecosystem.
look around you...everything is made of plastic. once enough plastic is accumulated, BAM! humanity gets wiped out by some asteroid, or disease, or whatever.



speculating on why we are here, even if it is completely random......that is a waste of time, as there are bajillions of potential "reasons".

 

[Sarkus]

From web

"Evolution is not progress. Populations simply adapt to their current surroundings. They do not necessarily become better in any absolute sense over time. A trait or strategy that is successful at one time may be unsuccessful at another."

This may be true of all other life forms but it is not true of humans, we have undoubtably improved over time.

Which form of man is more likely to survive any environment on the planet, todays man with all his intelligence or an earlier primitive form with limited and smaller brain?

LOL!
True, we are reasonably well adapted to living on this planet, in any number of differing environments.
Our adaptability gave us the edge over Neanderthals - as we could survive in environments where they struggled. This is evolution at work. Nothing more.

But is intelligence necessarily a good thing?
Afterall, we are now the only animal capable of destroying the entire planet.
And as for survivability, cockroaches are far better at it than we are.
And some species of animals have been around, unchanged, for millions of years.
Homo-sapiens might just as easily survive as a species if we were nowhere near as intelligent - and lived as rudimentary hunters / farmers.
Have we really "improved" as a species since then?

It might be that our intelligence is what causes our extinction!
That would hardly be an "improvement", would it.

 

[The Devil Inside]

Afterall, we are now the only animal capable of destroying the entire planet.

no we arent.
surface life, maybe.

 

[Zephyr]

Until we invent the right weapon, you mean. The Little Doctor could destroy planets (needless to say, it was used in space battles rather than against other countries...)

 

[Sarkus]

no we arent.
surface life, maybe.

Apologies - yes - surface life. I was being a touch "Armageddon" with the power of our weaponary.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

LOL!
True, we are reasonably well adapted to living on this planet, in any number of differing environments.
Our adaptability gave us the edge over Neanderthals - as we could survive in environments where they struggled. This is evolution at work. Nothing more.

But is intelligence necessarily a good thing?
Afterall, we are now the only animal capable of destroying the entire planet.
And as for survivability, cockroaches are far better at it than we are.
And some species of animals have been around, unchanged, for millions of years.
Homo-sapiens might just as easily survive as a species if we were nowhere near as intelligent - and lived as rudimentary hunters / farmers.
Have we really "improved" as a species since then?

It might be that our intelligence is what causes our extinction!
That would hardly be an "improvement", would it.

Maybe the nature of our behaviour will ensure the 'intelligent' passifists survive, while the less cerebal 'war' mongers die out. As they kill each other, the desire to kill will die with them.

 

[Oli]

Nah, we'll class the "intelligent pacifists" as collateral damage and take everyone...

 

[The Devil Inside]

Until we invent the right weapon, you mean. The Little Doctor could destroy planets (needless to say, it was used in space battles rather than against other countries...)

ive got a "little doctor"...but it cant destroy the planet.

i use it to destroy humanity, one chick at a time.

 

[The Devil Inside]

Until we invent the right weapon, you mean. The Little Doctor could destroy planets (needless to say, it was used in space battles rather than against other countries...)

the first three books of that series were the first "epic" scale stories i ever read. i have copies still in their packaging, for my children to read....as soon as my little doctor brings it about.

 

[The Devil Inside]

Apologies - yes - surface life. I was being a touch "Armageddon" with the power of our weaponary.

hey, dont apologize to me!!!

apologize to the tube worms and bacteria living in the earth's crust that you so insensetively disregard!!!!

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

LOL!
True, we are reasonably well adapted to living on this planet, in any number of differing environments.
Our adaptability gave us the edge over Neanderthals - as we could survive in environments where they struggled. This is evolution at work. Nothing more.

But is intelligence necessarily a good thing?
Afterall, we are now the only animal capable of destroying the entire planet.
And as for survivability, cockroaches are far better at it than we are.
And some species of animals have been around, unchanged, for millions of years.
Homo-sapiens might just as easily survive as a species if we were nowhere near as intelligent - and lived as rudimentary hunters / farmers.
Have we really "improved" as a species since then?

It might be that our intelligence is what causes our extinction!
That would hardly be an "improvement", would it.

On subject of what god wants and I reply - for us to 'improve' through 'evolution' of body, mind and spirit

"2. How can evolution produce complex organs like the eye?

In the process of natural selection, individuals in a population who are well-adapted to a particular set of environmental conditions have an advantage over those who are not so well adapted. These individuals pass their genes and advantageous traits to their offspring, giving the offspring the same advantages. Generation after generation, natural selection acts upon each structure within an organ like the eye, producing incremental improvements in the process. Each tiny change in a structure is dependent upon changes in all the other structures. In this way, individual parts of a system evolve in unison to be both structurally and functionally compatible. Eventually, over thousands and sometimes millions of years, the small improvements add up -- the simple, systematic process has produced an almost unfathomably complex organ. Recently, scientists have found clues to the evolutionary pasts of some of the most complex organs, helping to clarify how this process works. "


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat05.html#Q01

This would suggest evolution is about improvement in some regard, note the use of the word 'improvement' in this short extract.

 

[lightgigantic]

Scripture is the indication of what god wants - what other authority are you going to approach ? One's mind? (of course you can approach scripture with the view to fulfil what is in one's mind, but then that is kind of an issue of impaired hearing)