if a person is not liberated, what value is their expression on the nature of life after liberation?
Of no more 'value' than their opinion of the nature of liberation.
Are you asking me a 'personal' question, somewhere, here?
Of course. Inquire as you like.
and how does that define or qualify one for determining the nature of existence after liberation (assuming that you are working with the definition of liberation as that state that id liberated from pain/suffering ... otherwise what is it liberating us from?)
I have no truck with your 'definition'.
Classic 'definition' is an experiential 'understanding'/experience of the One.. 'Enlightenment/liberation' is a state of 'grace', 'innocence', 'born again' (regained state of 'innocence'), 'enlightenment', One with Tao, 'Dharma', 'Void'.. all the metaphors.. 'no person' to experience the One.. blah.. you just gotta be Here..
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'It' just is non transferrable on an internet post, or otherwise! Just gotta pay the dues.
I can answer your questions with words, and whether they fall off the monitor onto the floor, or you reverse engineer this wisdom into a liquor that you can sip and enjoy, or throw them back into my face like beavers flinging feces into the sun, or whatever.. makes no real difference..
I don't see any problem with your definition of suffering ... my inquiry was more into the liberation side of things, particularly in regards to your statement that the end of life is the end of suffering
People 'seek' liberation from their unhappiness, whatever the 'cause'. People that 'seek liberation', seek liberation from 'ignorance', from 'delusion'. It is 'delusion/ignorance' (false ego) that 'attaches' to the pain of existence (which, ultimately, is nothing more than a 'memory program') thereby causing 'unhappiness', which is what one really is trying to escape. Pain is just another tray on the buffet of human feelings. No different than joy, sad, grief, etc..
All these 'feelings' are co-arising with/within the phenomenon of a 'living human being'. While there is life, there is evidence of these 'feelings' With the cessation of what appears as 'life', all 'signs of life, including 'feelings' disappear with that appearance of life.
All evidence is that 'pain', a 'feeling', dies along with the biological organs that biologically 'give rise' to those 'feelings'. Feelings are no more than 'feelings', biologically produced in the hypothalamus.. short chain proteins.. peptides..
No living brain=no living hypothalamus=no living peptides=no 'feelings'=no 'pain'=no endurance of pain=no 'suffering after 'death'.
So there!
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And if you still do not understand this simple point that I am making, you really don't want to understand (even though you are under no obligation to accept), or are nursing a 'belief virus' that will not allow 'conflicting info' into it's area of infestation..
once again, no problem with your definition of suffering/pain
Well, there you go and there you are! heheh
there remains no evidence for many things, like for instance that entity we call "the mind" is not evidenced (by empiricism - I assume that is what you mean by the word "evidence") either - but perhaps this is all a bit off topic
We can discuss this elsewhere/elsewhen as I 'see things a bit differently', which is where much, if not all, of this 'value' seems to lie..
If there is 'thought', there is your evidence of 'mind'.
The 'thought' is a 'lie', not 'real', and the 'concept of mind' is equally unreal illusion. Not 'mind', but 'memory'. Apparent continuity of 'memory' is imagined as 'thought'. It isn't, but it is the source of all delusion and unhappiness. Liberation frees you from this delusion.
since the thread deals specifically with the question of what happens after liberation, which assumes this body is not all in all to existence
*Flips all pages to end of book and displays the punchline*
Who are 'you'?
You are existence. If you draw and accept some arbitrary notion of 'seperation', perhaps you can imagine that, seperated from all existence, now (your true nature) you can be a 'galaxy'. Sweet, the 'perspective' of a galaxy! The patience! The drama! A few more false and arbitrary 'definitions/contextual definitions/boundaries' and you can be a planet, or a tree, or .. little and afraid and isolated us, trembling in the severe shadows created by our 'creation of things' with the 'belief virus taking us deeper and deeper into the deluision that we tearfully and pridefully tout as 'reality'!
No, that 'body' is not all to 'you', but that 'liberating' experience/understanding has to 'arise' from within. Otherwise, it is just intellectual detritus, meaningless until 'actualized' as experience, and THEN! all this bullshit seems to take on some sort ****Woah!!*** effect!
And it is a case of, I knew it all along! (go figure) Just came to 'Consciousness' Now!
how can there be experience of liberation in the presence of suffering?
No 'how'.
It 'happens'!
We do.
It is.
What is, is. Etc..
All appearance of 'liberation' happens within the appearance of 'life', in which, there is, inherently, the appearance of 'pain/suffering'. The nice thing about still riding that wheel, is that whatever pain that you experience, will (appear to) pass, and give way to a new ride for a few moments... And the wheel keeps turning.. (which is why one is wisely advised to not attach to that wheel of Maya/illusion).
I think you have to clear up what the linear communal illusion of life is
K.
I'm not sure what terms you are unfamiliar with.
Some moments of that which we perceive as 'life' are perceived in a 'linear fashion', one 'following' the next. That is a 'trick' of the mind/memory.
Rob't Anton Wilson likes to say that;
"The universe is a (simultaneous) non-simultaneously apprehended event." (Linear, temporally perceived)
Communal in that society collaborates in what is accepted as 'reality' or not within that society.. More communally accepted delusion. Non acceptance of the societal delusions has consequences for the authentic/honest 'indivi-dual'..
I hope that helps..
I don't doubt that - but the question is are your experiences valid enough to determine the nature of life after liberation while your experiences involve suffering/pain?
I have thoroughly answered your question. The problem is that you must crack the 'code', find the key!
'Code' is all that can be offered here, at best... Metaphor..
The nature of the 'answer' is that besides pointing out that the initial question is in error, goes on to point out that 'liberation' frees one from the false concepts of the mind. One of those 'false concepts' is the notion of 'time' (your 'before and after'). Thus, there is no 'after' liberation/enlightenment/Oneness...
if that consciousness involves pain/suffering, how can it be liberated?
Consciousness Is. It 'involves' nothing. It is false ego that is 'liberated', like a bullet to the brain! Without the obscurant dust of false ego all over the mirror of our perceptions, vision clears, vessel empties of 'false self' and can flow with 'Consciousness'. Like to experience the 'Consciousness' of a galaxy? Experience the Consciousness of a 'tree'? A universe?
'Consciousness' is One
It is called the 'Ground of all Existence', by, of all folks, Quantum Theory! And, of course, millennia of mystics who have paid their dues to 'see'...
