What happens after nirvana, liberation, perfection?

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by VitalOne, Apr 1, 2007.

  1. fadeaway humper that way lies madness Registered Senior Member

    Boy, you guys are brainy. Or sober. I can't quite decide which is worse.

    Also, if by "nirvana" you mean "poop", as I suspect: Both liberation and perfection.

    You are welcome.
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  3. nameless Registered Senior Member

    Of no more 'value' than their opinion of the nature of liberation.
    Are you asking me a 'personal' question, somewhere, here?

    Of course. Inquire as you like.

    I have no truck with your 'definition'.
    Classic 'definition' is an experiential 'understanding'/experience of the One.. 'Enlightenment/liberation' is a state of 'grace', 'innocence', 'born again' (regained state of 'innocence'), 'enlightenment', One with Tao, 'Dharma', 'Void'.. all the metaphors.. 'no person' to experience the One.. blah.. you just gotta be Here..
    'It' just is non transferrable on an internet post, or otherwise! Just gotta pay the dues.
    I can answer your questions with words, and whether they fall off the monitor onto the floor, or you reverse engineer this wisdom into a liquor that you can sip and enjoy, or throw them back into my face like beavers flinging feces into the sun, or whatever.. makes no real difference..

    People 'seek' liberation from their unhappiness, whatever the 'cause'. People that 'seek liberation', seek liberation from 'ignorance', from 'delusion'. It is 'delusion/ignorance' (false ego) that 'attaches' to the pain of existence (which, ultimately, is nothing more than a 'memory program') thereby causing 'unhappiness', which is what one really is trying to escape. Pain is just another tray on the buffet of human feelings. No different than joy, sad, grief, etc..

    All these 'feelings' are co-arising with/within the phenomenon of a 'living human being'. While there is life, there is evidence of these 'feelings' With the cessation of what appears as 'life', all 'signs of life, including 'feelings' disappear with that appearance of life.
    All evidence is that 'pain', a 'feeling', dies along with the biological organs that biologically 'give rise' to those 'feelings'. Feelings are no more than 'feelings', biologically produced in the hypothalamus.. short chain proteins.. peptides..
    No living brain=no living hypothalamus=no living peptides=no 'feelings'=no 'pain'=no endurance of pain=no 'suffering after 'death'.
    So there!
    And if you still do not understand this simple point that I am making, you really don't want to understand (even though you are under no obligation to accept), or are nursing a 'belief virus' that will not allow 'conflicting info' into it's area of infestation..

    Well, there you go and there you are! heheh

    We can discuss this elsewhere/elsewhen as I 'see things a bit differently', which is where much, if not all, of this 'value' seems to lie..
    If there is 'thought', there is your evidence of 'mind'.
    The 'thought' is a 'lie', not 'real', and the 'concept of mind' is equally unreal illusion. Not 'mind', but 'memory'. Apparent continuity of 'memory' is imagined as 'thought'. It isn't, but it is the source of all delusion and unhappiness. Liberation frees you from this delusion.

    *Flips all pages to end of book and displays the punchline*
    Who are 'you'?
    You are existence. If you draw and accept some arbitrary notion of 'seperation', perhaps you can imagine that, seperated from all existence, now (your true nature) you can be a 'galaxy'. Sweet, the 'perspective' of a galaxy! The patience! The drama! A few more false and arbitrary 'definitions/contextual definitions/boundaries' and you can be a planet, or a tree, or .. little and afraid and isolated us, trembling in the severe shadows created by our 'creation of things' with the 'belief virus taking us deeper and deeper into the deluision that we tearfully and pridefully tout as 'reality'!
    No, that 'body' is not all to 'you', but that 'liberating' experience/understanding has to 'arise' from within. Otherwise, it is just intellectual detritus, meaningless until 'actualized' as experience, and THEN! all this bullshit seems to take on some sort ****Woah!!*** effect!
    And it is a case of, I knew it all along! (go figure) Just came to 'Consciousness' Now!

    No 'how'.
    It 'happens'!
    We do.
    It is.
    What is, is. Etc..
    All appearance of 'liberation' happens within the appearance of 'life', in which, there is, inherently, the appearance of 'pain/suffering'. The nice thing about still riding that wheel, is that whatever pain that you experience, will (appear to) pass, and give way to a new ride for a few moments... And the wheel keeps turning.. (which is why one is wisely advised to not attach to that wheel of Maya/illusion).

    I'm not sure what terms you are unfamiliar with.
    Some moments of that which we perceive as 'life' are perceived in a 'linear fashion', one 'following' the next. That is a 'trick' of the mind/memory.
    Rob't Anton Wilson likes to say that;
    "The universe is a (simultaneous) non-simultaneously apprehended event." (Linear, temporally perceived)
    Communal in that society collaborates in what is accepted as 'reality' or not within that society.. More communally accepted delusion. Non acceptance of the societal delusions has consequences for the authentic/honest 'indivi-dual'..
    I hope that helps..

    I have thoroughly answered your question. The problem is that you must crack the 'code', find the key!
    'Code' is all that can be offered here, at best... Metaphor..

    The nature of the 'answer' is that besides pointing out that the initial question is in error, goes on to point out that 'liberation' frees one from the false concepts of the mind. One of those 'false concepts' is the notion of 'time' (your 'before and after'). Thus, there is no 'after' liberation/enlightenment/Oneness...

    Consciousness Is. It 'involves' nothing. It is false ego that is 'liberated', like a bullet to the brain! Without the obscurant dust of false ego all over the mirror of our perceptions, vision clears, vessel empties of 'false self' and can flow with 'Consciousness'. Like to experience the 'Consciousness' of a galaxy? Experience the Consciousness of a 'tree'? A universe?
    'Consciousness' is One
    It is called the 'Ground of all Existence', by, of all folks, Quantum Theory! And, of course, millennia of mystics who have paid their dues to 'see'...
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  5. nameless Registered Senior Member

    Originally Posted by lightgigantic
    if a person is not liberated, what value is their expression on the nature of life after liberation?

    Of course, for an intelligent reply, you would have to define 'value' and thus, 'to whom'?
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  7. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    all things are not equal - its not so much a personal question, at least not at this moment, but one for deeming logic - if a person has attained a state of liberation, their opinions regarding life after liberation are more valid than the opinions of one who is yet to approach a liberated state - kind of like a person who has actually learnt to and flown an airplane has more valid experiences to relate on the topic of flying airlplanes than a person who has never flown an airplane
    its not such a complex issue
    if a person is liberated they are liberated from suffering and if a person is suffering they are not liberated p in otherwords liberation involves a very clear idea of what one is seeking liberation from

    otherwise there would be no way to determine whether this gentleman is liberated or not

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    ignorance is the cause of pain and suffering

    BG 5.21: Such a liberated person is not attracted to material sense pleasure but is always in trance, enjoying the pleasure within. In this way the self-realized person enjoys unlimited happiness, for he concentrates on the Supreme.

    pain an suffering ends with liberation, yet life continues
    there is some vague indication on the movements of the conceptualized self (that is which part of the brain corresponds to which feelings) yet there is no empirical evidence for the nature of the self as context (the entity who has a sense of " I am") - in other words you are not indicating life but merely the chemical counterparts that life utilizes - at the very least no scientist can take short chain proteins and turn them into conscious life

    once again - there is no scientific evidence for the constituent material elements of actual consciousness, so without even having to dally into issues of transcendence or spirituality, it seems that you are the one working with a belief virus

    bu that thought can not be reduced to a material representation - you may say that chemical x works in a certain way on the consciousness to produce emotional state y, but even if you have truck loads of chemical x you can not produce emotional state y unless you have consciousness (and since we can not synthesize consciousness, where does that leave us?)

    perhaps until the FBI kicks down your door
    thats ok, but it boils down to what one ultimately identifies one's consciousness with - and once again its not necessarily so complicated - if one identifies with matter (even if somehow you think you are a galaxy) it is illusion since all matter, including galaxies, perish - liberation involves one's consciousness identifying with transcendence, which basically boils down to two options - does a liberated person identify their consciousness with the notion of being the supreme consciousness of existence or do they identify themselves as a conscious separated part and parcel of the supreme consciousness - answering this will largely answer whether there are any activities after liberation

    all pain is experienced to be temporary and it is no grand achievement to have such experiences
    so if the ultimate underlying foundation of existence is illusion, how do you propose that one gets free from it, without simply adopting an illusory path (after all, anton wilson could simply be facilitating another aspect of illusion by propagating yet another societal delusion)

    if one cannot see life past suffering, it is doubtful whether they have cracked the code
    so one is always liberated?
    This sounds like a very cheap definition of liberation if there is no point striving for liberation since one is already liberated yet one still experiences pain/suffering.

    I don't know if that answers the question, since the very foundation of pain/suffering is separation
  8. nameless Registered Senior Member

    So, according to your incessant point here, you are arguing with what I offer from your great fund of fantasy and imagination. All egoic. As 'liberation', etc.. is not within your experience, one would think that you would close the mouth and try to understand something a bit.. different. Where is your experience? None. You imagine that 'this' means 'that' with no personal experience, and argue (ego). Gotta be who you are though..
    But, I have said everything I have to here with the following, on the subject. If you have an intelligent, respectful, non-agendized or egoic question on a specific, I'll be happy to answer for your consideration, but I'm not feeling that there is anything you want to understand. You are already deep within your delusions and beliefs with no room for input. That is as it may be for the moment, perhaps another moment.

    Originally Posted by lightgigantic
    if a person is not liberated, what value is their expression on the nature of life after liberation?

    Of no more 'value' than their opinion of the nature of liberation.
    Are you asking me a 'personal' question, somewhere, here?

    all things are not equal - its not so much a personal question, at least not at this moment, but one for deeming logic - if a person has attained a state of liberation, their opinions regarding life after liberation are more valid than the opinions of one who is yet to approach a liberated state - kind of like a person who has actually learnt to and flown an airplane has more valid experiences to relate on the topic of flying airlplanes than a person who has never flown an airplane

    Your constant repetition of this 'point' has now become obvious to me (ok, I may be a bit slow..) that you are attempting to 'bait' me into some declaration of some 'authority' for the words that I offer, so that you can play some ego game.
    Anyone willing to 'accept' something solely on the so called 'authority' of someone elses thoughts, etc.. is, as far as I can see, a fool. An intelligent person that is capable of critical thought would never think of such a thing. You would have plenty social company, though, if acceptance of 'authority' is your thing.
    I will not play play into your game. That isn't why i'm here.
    You can dismiss these words as you like if/as they have no meaning to you. No problem.
    There is no argument here.
    Perhaps they will have meaning to someone else.
    Perhaps to you after a bit of 'life' experience.
    Perhaps not.
    There is no argument here.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2007
  9. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    its not quite so drastic - I think its quite straight forward - basically it boils down to determining whether liberation is a freedom or an involvement in pain and suffeing
    and a good beginning point for such an understanding would be the experiences of persons who are accredited with having attained liberation in books of knowledge
    my point exactly - if I am a fool suffering in the material world like everyone else, what is the point in me giving a personal opinion on the nature of liberation, or even worse, the nature of life after liberation
    and the question is whether one is a liberated or non-liberated person - just because I am not a brain surgeon doesn't mean that my opinions on brain surgery should be respected through out th e world

    would a person who is not liberated have an agenda in discussing the nature of life after liberation if they insisted in explaining it according to their own experiences?
    your argument is the ultimate in ego, since the only authority is your ego

  10. Grantywanty Registered Senior Member

    Nah. It's random speculation. And it has in fact been treated as mental wanking by the people who claim to be enlightened and whose words tend to come up in such discussions.
  11. nameless Registered Senior Member

    Of course, for an intelligent reply, you would have to define 'value' and thus, 'to whom'?

    To what do you refer when saying 'random speculation'? 'Unenlightened speculations' or all 'reports' regardless of 'personal experience'?
  12. nameless Registered Senior Member

    Bye the bye, is this what is commonly called an 'appeal to authority' fallacy?
  13. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    so in otherwords you think that there is no such thing as liberation - what premises do you base that conclusion on? (or are you more interested in stating your beliefs to the world or something like that?)
  14. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    would a discussion on the value of a person not acquainted with brain surgery discussing how to carry out brain surgery require clarification?

    Its really quite simply, if a person is not even close to liberation, what is the value of their personal views regarding life after liberation
  15. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

    There is no more after you reach nirvanic bliss. You become eternity. The physical body doesn't matter much then. After death it decomposes, like everything else.
  16. VitalOne Banned Banned

    So what happens after pairinirvana will forever remain unknown? All Gautama Buddha says is that its blissful...but what does that mean? He even says that you don't exist, nor not exist, nor neither exist nor not exist...what does that mean?

    "Just as the destination of a glowing fire
    struck with a [blacksmith's] iron hammer,
    gradually growing calm,
    is not known:

    Even so, there's no destination to describe
    for those who are rightly released
    — having crossed over the flood
    of sensuality's bond —
    for those who have attained
    unwavering bliss"
    - (Udana 8.10)

    Well I'll still strive for nirvana...nirvana is the end of all suffering...
    Last edited: May 1, 2007
  17. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

    The best things can’t be said because they are transcendent. The second best things are misunderstood because they are using objects of time and space to speak of transcendence. The third best thing is conversation.
  18. Zephyr Humans are ONE Registered Senior Member

    Under that theory, is there any difference between dying after Nirvana and dying without Nirvana?
  19. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

    Achieving the nirvana you die as a human being psychologically during the life of your body.
    Then after only the body dies.
    Without achieving nirvana during the life, upon physical death you die physically and psychologically.
  20. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    Nirvana is understanding your own truths about happiness and love.
  21. Gently Passing Registered Senior Member

    Foo Fighters?

    No, seriously though. Did these sages not re-enter the world to then alleviate the suffering of all beings, and hasten their movement toward Nirvana?

    I guess you reach it, then you figure "well, I left a whole lot of folks behind..."
  22. Rick Valued Senior Member

    Nirvana is other name for union with nirguna brahm, where you loose all context of being separate from the absolute truth or self or whatever you wanna call it. If you get the idea....

    lemme know if i am not clear. mail me @ ricky.nj@gmail.com

    Last edited: May 4, 2007
  23. Althaea Registered Member

    I have finally found a place that speaks my language!

    My first encounter with this site was today. I googled the question -"after Nirvana what then" and this site came up! I was delighted needless to say! I just love watching the wheel go round and round!
    At any rate - thank you - while I didn't find a succinct answer to my query I have formulated my own conclusion from all of the very worthy posts that had been generated.
    What a lovely list!!!!!

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