What makes a holy text holy?

wesmorris

wesmorris

Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N
Valued Senior Member
(pardon if I have posted this before, or if something close has been done, I must have missed it or forgotten)

To me, calling any text "holy" is traditionalism taken to the extreme. I suppose any number of adjectives can be validly pertinent to a text, but the term "holy" seems to entail a particular connotation that seems particularly unwise to me.

IMO, traditionalism is no excuse to elevate a text to such status as traditionalism alone is not an explanation. What other explanation is there?

I'd like to see a logical argument as to the basis for personally allowing any text to be considered holy. (meaning that sure other people may call it holy, but if you do, why)

Please present your case or point of discussion.
 
wesmorris said:
(pardon if I have posted this before, or if something close has been done, I must have missed it or forgotten)

To me, calling any text "holy" is traditionalism taken to the extreme. I suppose any number of adjectives can be validly pertinent to a text, but the term "holy" seems to entail a particular connotation that seems particularly unwise to me.

IMO, traditionalism is no excuse to elevate a text to such status as traditionalism alone is not an explanation. What other explanation is there?

I'd like to see a logical argument as to the basis for personally allowing any text to be considered holy. (meaning that sure other people may call it holy, but if you do, why)

Please present your case or point of discussion.
Click to expand...

I really understand your struggle and frustration in dealing with this specific point..But unfortunetly, you question have no concrete answer, you really have to make your own personal assessment and come up with your own conclusion on the matter. It's the equivalent of asking a person who is about to eat a fruit to proof to you that this fruit came from a specific tree that both of you can't seem to find.

I'll try to come up with better words to explain this, and in the meanwhile, enjoy the following joke:

A British Airways flight was going to Tehran from London. When it gets close to Tehran it starts having some kind of trouble. The pilot contacts the air tower at Tehran airport and asks for help:

"Tehran, this Captain Smith, British Airways flight 000, do you read me?"

"Flight 000, dis iz Tehran flight contorol, go ahead"

"Tehran, this is flight 000, we have a problem"

"Dis iz Tehran, vat kind of peroblem?"

"This is flight 000, we have lost power to our engines, please advise"

"Dis iz Tehran, I reed you, peleez check some sings for me, ok?"

"This is flight 000, go ahead"

"Dis iz Tehran, can you get emerzency pover to your enzines?"

"This is flight 000, negative, no power is available"

"Dis iz Tehran, can you peleez bering your altitutde to 20,000 feet?"

"This is flight 000, negative, our wing controls do not respond"

"Dis iz Tehran, can you peleez see if you can lover your veels?"

"This is flight 000, negative, landing gears are stuck"

"Dis iz Tehran, vould you pleeze repeet theez vords after me"

"This is flight 000, go ahead"

"Dis iz Tehran, repeet theez words peleez:

ASH'HADO ANNA LA ILAHA ELLALLAH VA ASH'HADO ANNA MOHAMMADAN RASUL ALLAH"
 
Wesmorris,
Another thing that may help you understand....Perhaps you can work delligently on your spare time to produce another holy book like the Quran....This challenge was given in the text of the Quran and I'm too smart or chicken to take up that challenge, maybe you're the man who will successfully challenge or tempt god....Go for it, Should we meet again in a year and see your progress, I would imagine that you can easily beat an illiterate man with no computers, internet, or library, who was hanging out all day long in a cave.

"Say: if all of mankind and the jinn were to gather together to produce the like of this Holy Book, they could not produce the like of it, even if they backed each other with help and support (17.88)."
 
Sorry, I forgot to mention....While you are retreating and writing the best book whatsoever for all humanity and letting us on all the secrets of creations, earth, galaxies, oceans, death, post life, marriage, divorce, kids, inheritance, wisdom, philosophy, ect.....Try not to stand in the rain outside without protection....You never know, you might catch a higher connection, or get struck by a lightening.
 
I'd put my money on wesmorris over the koran any day.

Wes - I know you asked an honest question, but do you really think you'll get anything more than "I'd like to see YOU write a holy book!"
 
fadingCaptain said:
I'd put my money on wesmorris over the koran any day.
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That's the spirit....That's what I'm talking about...Let's take some bets and establish some deadlines....Come on people, I want see some good action...Who knows, we might make history.

I vote that Wesmorris will not even attempt to write a holly book, and if he ends up attempting to write one, he will go insane shortly after starting.

And by the way, no ground rules, he can use all his computers, library, friends, literature research, peer review, ect.....He can also use all the technological advances and today's knowledge to explain to humanity the REAL TRUTH. I'm sure Wesmorris can beat the bedwin ignorant ancient Mohammed.
 
fadingCaptain said:
I'd put my money on wesmorris over the koran any day.

Wes - I know you asked an honest question, but do you really think you'll get anything more than "I'd like to see YOU write a holy book!"
Click to expand...


apart from agreeing with fadingCaptain, I'd like for you to clarify this text for me

I'd like to see a logical argument as to the basis for personally allowing any text to be considered holy. (meaning that sure other people may call it holy, but if you do, why)
Click to expand...

If the texts indeed are Holy, why do you use the verb allow, which implies something rather different than what you are saying?

What I'm trying to say without sounding confrontational is that I personally don't "allow" a text to be Holy. As Holiness is Perfection, there is obviously no need to "consider" it Holy.. isnt that a bit of a contradiction?

I know I am being very ambiguous with what I'm trying to say but I'm typing from school so I have to be terse. :D
 
flores, the challenge is for the original text of the Quran in Arabic. the English version or any other version is nothing,like the Quran as Arabic is a very hard langauge translate exactly and the text lose their ryhme and rythm.

it was chose in Arabic for a reason, Arabic is a langaue that has rythm, and you can read without understanding Arabic. also the most talented and prominent poets were loacted in the Arabic lands.

THE SMALLEST VERSE IN THE QURAN IS TEN WORDS LONG (or half a line in this post)

and dont think people haven't tried. the most talented poets in all of Arabia tried to meet this challenge and non could. Islam originally gained followers by the beauty of the texts.

i have seen Non Muslim Arab spearkers cry at the recitation of the Quran becasue of it beauty.
 
Flores said:
That's the spirit....That's what I'm talking about...Let's take some bets and establish some deadlines....Come on people, I want see some good action...Who knows, we might make history.

I vote that Wesmorris will not even attempt to write a holly book, and if he ends up attempting to write one, he will go insane shortly after starting.

And by the way, no ground rules, he can use all his computers, library, friends, literature research, peer review, ect.....He can also use all the technological advances and today's knowledge to explain to humanity the REAL TRUTH. I'm sure Wesmorris can beat the bedwin ignorant ancient Mohammed.
Click to expand...

Why so? If Paul (the supposed apostle) was able to write all those epistles (holy books each), then why cant Wesmorris? Paul wrote without the aid of any computers in a dark dungeon.
 
Flores said:
"Say: if all of mankind and the jinn were to gather together to produce the like of this Holy Book, they could not produce the like of it, even if they backed each other with help and support (17.88)."
Click to expand...
Ah I see you were referring to the infamous surah challenge...


May I ask you how on earth could anyone take that challenge if no standard was given? Can you say the standards by which the challenger would be judged? And who shall judge it?

My friend that challenge is plainly ridiculous.
 
Preacher_X said:
flores, the challenge is for the original text of the Quran in Arabic. the English version or any other version is nothing,like the Quran as Arabic is a very hard langauge translate exactly and the text lose their ryhme and rythm.

it was chose in Arabic for a reason, Arabic is a langaue that has rythm, and you can read without understanding Arabic. also the most talented and prominent poets were loacted in the Arabic lands.

THE SMALLEST VERSE IN THE QURAN IS TEN WORDS LONG (or half a line in this post)

and dont think people haven't tried. the most talented poets in all of Arabia tried to meet this challenge and non could. Islam originally gained followers by the beauty of the texts.

i have seen Non Muslim Arab spearkers cry at the recitation of the Quran becasue of it beauty.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with you. I don't believe that the Quran is holy because it says so or because my parents were born as so called muslims. I had bigger and more aggressive doubts than Wesmorris and you all combined. Reading the Quran is arabic is like seeing a miracle. It's amazing, beautifull, perfect, ect.. I have read many books, none match up to the experience of reading the Quran.

http://www.pearls.org/TheHolyBook/word.htm

The Holy Book differs absolutely from any human artifact (whether literary or otherwise) in the absolute transcendence of its perspective and viewpoint. Occasionally in other scriptures, in a few scattered phrases or passages, the reader or listener feels that he is indeed in the presence of the Divine Message addressed to mankind from their Creator. In the Holy Book, every syllable carries this impression of sublime intensity of communication from One who is All Knowing and All Merciful. Furthermore, the Holy Book cannot, as can merely human works, be contemplated at a distance; it cannot be discussed and debated in the abstract. The Holy Book requires us to understand and to act, to amend our lifestyles; by God, it also enables us to do so because it can touch us in the very depths of our being. It addresses us in our full reality as spiritually and physically competent beings. It addresses our whole being as the creatures of the All Merciful. It is not addressed to just one or other of our faculties. The Holy Book is not a message that engages only our capacity for philosophical reasoning, or only our poetic, artistic sensibility, or only our power to alter and manage the natural environment, or to alter and manage our political and legal affairs, or only our need for mutual compassion and forgiveness, or only our spiritual craving for knowledge and consolation. Nor is the Holy Book a message addressed to one man only or one tribe or one nation, nor is it addressed only to men and not to women, or only to the oppressed and weak and not to the wealthy and powerful, or only to the sinful and self-indulgent and not to the virtuous and self-disciplined. The Qur'an addresses the whole of mankind and, by God, its message is relevant (as it is also preserved) for all time.
 
Flores said:
Reading the Quran is arabic is like seeing a miracle. It's amazing, beautifull, perfect, ect.. I have read many books, none match up to the experience of reading the Quran.

http://www.pearls.org/TheHolyBook/word.htm
Click to expand...
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Especially if you have been conditioned since childhood of the supposedly unmatched beauty of the arabic quran.

And still such an argument is still imprisoned behind the LANGUAGE BARRIER. What is the sense in calling the arabic quran miraculous if only the arab speaker could understand it?

Flores said:
In the Holy Book, every syllable carries this impression of sublime intensity of communication from One who is All Knowing and All Merciful.
Click to expand...
You are just beggin the question here. You have to beg your audience to assume the existence of god and its communication to mankind before your argument could be taken seriously.
 
DoctorNO said:
May I ask you how on earth could anyone take that challenge if no standard was given? Can you say the standards by which the challenger would be judged? And who shall judge it?

My friend that challenge is plainly ridiculous.
Click to expand...

So you throw the towel....How predictable.

My friend, they have a saying that goes...."build it and they shall come."

Write something more powerfull and more authentic than the Quran and the adherants will come. That's the true test. According to you the Quran had no helpers and was written by an illiterate fool named Mohammed, in that case, you shouldn't have any problems outplaying Mohammed's appeal, logic, and book.

The challenge is very real.
 
Preacher_X said:
i have seen Non Muslim Arab spearkers cry at the recitation of the Quran becasue of it beauty.
Click to expand...

Are you sure? Maybe they were just suffering from eye irritation because of too much sand. :D
 
DoctorNO said:
You are just beggin the question here. You have to beg your audience to assume the existence of god and its communication to mankind before your argument could be taken seriously.
Click to expand...


No one is stopping you...Beg as hard as you want....write in whatever language of your choosing, and let's see if you can outdo ignorant illiterate Muhammed.

You think you can write a book....one man...that is preserved and read thousands of years after it was written....Do you think you can meet that challenge? Even specific Einstein theory that is non-inclusive of humanity issues about theory of relativity is being debunked and new books are taking over. Write us an overall book that covers everything from morals to creation, to death, ect....and let's see how it will do.
 
Flores said:
So you throw the towel....How predictable.

My friend, they have a saying that goes...."build it and they shall come."

Write something more powerfull and more authentic than the Quran and the adherants will come. That's the true test. According to you the Quran had no helpers and was written by an illiterate fool named Mohammed, in that case, you shouldn't have any problems outplaying Mohammed's appeal, logic, and book.

The challenge is very real.
Click to expand...

Paul's epistles did attract by the hundreds of millions. And so did Joseph Smith's Book of Mormons. Does that prove these books were from God as well? Does the book of mormon beat the surah challenge?
 
Flores said:
No one is stopping you...Beg as hard as you want....write in whatever language of your choosing, and let's see if you can outdo ignorant illiterate Muhammed.
Click to expand...
Again by what terms and standards am i supposed to beat the recitations of mohammed? And who is to judge it?
 
DoctorNO said:
Paul's epistles did attract by the hundreds of millions. And so did Joseph Smith's Book of Mormons. Does that prove these books were from God as well? Does the book of mormon beat the surah challenge?
Click to expand...

I don't know, give a complete link to the book so I can read it and judge for myself. Complete versions please.
 
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