Which Religion?

Weaver

Registered Member
I am not an atheist, nor am I a devoted and fanatic follower of any religion, yet still I have belief in a god, and I also believe in evolution. Things are just too complicated for anyone to actually make a total decision on any subject. I have often pondered upon the question of evolution. Why is it so hard to believe that we are the descendents of primates? I know many religious people (my girlfriend included) who always instantly defend god, and state that human beings were created by God and therefore believing we were evolved from (and I quote) "Disgusting and impure animals such as monkeys" is purely heresay. To tell the truth, I am tired of religious people always stating that whatever happens is god's will. Evolution is real. immunitization of diseases such as ceratin strands of Flu, or other diseases simply prove it. I am not saying god did not create humankind, but are we to believe that there is someone out there watching each and every one of our lives? I cannot totally say I am against it, because I am paradoxial. I believe yet do not believe. People always tell me that there is only one god, but I you pay attention, you will see so many more examples of the stories and morals christianity had taken from other religions. No one has the right to say that they are the only ones correct, and all other religions are Pagen. Do not forget the inquisition. The golden rule states "Thou shall not kill" yet thousands died because they did not believe in christianity.

Comments?
 
Don't let anyone call you extremist for what I've read above. You've got a lot of the same questions many of us have. How we resolve them seems to be the important thing.

In that case, I'm left turning your ideas back at you, but that's not entirely fair.

I'll give it some better thought and attempt to be useful later.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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Whether God exists or does not exist, He has come to rank among the most sublime and useless truths.--Denis Diderot
 
Hi Weaver,

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. I don't consider myself an athiest in the strict sense in that I don't completley reject the idea of a creator. I just have a MAJOR problem with christanity. Its so obviously written by ignorant people (the bible I mean) and is completley lacking in any kind of devine inspiration. Further I will always argue against an organisation that claims they are the only ones that have the truth and everyone else will be punished for not accepting their philosophy.

I don't know how you feel about Nazi's personally I detest them...I think anyone who'd swallow that crap is just a freaking cretin. There is no other explanation, I mean you'd have to be retarded wouldn't you???...I also draw ALOT of parallels between Nazi's and christains.

Caleb et al sorry if that sounds harsh but your religion has been and still is responsible for a great deal of ill in this world. What angers me most is your imoral belief in salvation.
 
Hi Weaver,

Welcome.

If you want to learn and explore your ideas and have the courage then put them in writing and let us look. If you have valid points they will be praised, if you are wrong then you will see no mercy. But the experience of the activity will make you focus your thoughts wonderfully. You will end up understanding more than you can realise.

I am Atheist, Humanist, and now it seems a long standing Transhumanist. I positively believe that the Christian God cannot exist. The super superlative properties claimed by Christians for their God form an impossibility.

Have fun and join in
Cris
 
Greetings Weaver,

I hear ya, loud and clear. I always wondered why there was such a clash between creationists and evolutionists. I don't see why evolution can't be the tool used by God to create, but then I realized most Christians are dead-set on interpreting the bible in some more or less literal fashion, and the bible doesn't mention evolution, therefore it's garbage. *Sigh*

Personally, I'm not Christian, I'm proud to call myself Pagan. I don't see the conflict between science and spirituality. Science just reveals to us a bit of how everything is put together, it neither proves nor denies the Divine.

There's a lot of talk about logic - I think people forget that logic is simply a human construction, like the scientific method and everything else we've created. Which is fine and dandy for explaining things in the human world. But it falls far short when trying to describe the spiritual world. I've learned to let go of logic - I've seen and done things in my life that defy logic or scientific explanation, so I'm comfortable with it. It's very strange, but it's also very real. Magick can do what physics currently says is impossible - but since I've seen it happen, I have to come to the conclusion that physics is falling short of the truth. Either that, or I'm completely wacko. ;)
 
Hi MoonCat,

I reckon that what you see as magic will eventually be explained by science. And I suspect that if more people would persevere with science and logic we would get there sooner. When science appears to fail it is simply because we do not have all the information, and it often requires more imagination on the part of the scientists to unearth the missing components. I don’t see that science need be limited by any boundaries, and if we could find some, even tiny, evidence of supernatural or spiritual forces then science would be the best way to reveal the full truth. The nearest comparison is in the area of ESP and Parapsychology research – very little to go on – but actual real evidence has been found – and the work continues.

Science and logic have done great things for humanity so don’t put them down too easily. These methods remain the only proven processes for improving the human condition. For the moment science appears to be out of vogue, with many young people choosing the arts instead of the sciences for their college work. It is no wonder that there is a great deal of fervor and interest in New Age style beliefs. People are seeking for new solutions but do not have the necessary training in science and logic to find the real answers. New Age will gradually fade when it fails to produce anything useful, and after that there should be another surge in scientific optimism.

MoonCat, please feel free to scold me if I appear to become too personal; but I think you are someone typical of the New Age phenomenon, but your writing style indicates common sense and logical thinking. So I reckon that you have a small stubborn streak within you. And Paganism is probably the most ‘earthy’ of religions. So here is where I demonstrate my extensive ability to be irrational – I reckon you are a Taurus. How wrong am I?


Stay Cool.
Cris
 
Oxygen,

Well basically because it allows the believer to avoid taking responsibility for their actions, they ask an unseen being which exists in the minds the believers only for forgivness when its the people around them that should be getting the appologies. Maybe imoral was a bad word to use...I'll try and force my brain to come up with something better. :)

Guys just so you understand I've been working LATE nights and LONG days for about 3 weeks now. I think my best stretch is 4 hours sleep in 36 hours. So if I go off the deep end then please feel free to put me in my place but just understand I'm not completely with it.
 
re: Immorality and Salvation, or Redeeming the Immoral

I got myself in a heap of trouble, once upon a time, when I asserted, here at Exosci, that redemptive Christianity seemed to be a license to abuse people. Over time, I've gotten away with the argument more and more as I manage to choke out what I mean by that, but I'm going to throw my hat in with Rambler on this one, at least long enough to offer some speculations, considerations, and musings.

* Ransom Theory

Ransom theory espoused that the Devil had seized dominion over human souls and affairs. Medieval Christian philosophers worked hard to wrap their skulls and souls around that. Elaborate plays were written, casting humanity as the stake in a massive lawsuit, with either Jesus or Mary arguing for Good, and the Devil arguing for the forces of evil. In the end, no resolution was possible that did not invest too much power in the Devil for the philosophers' comfort. With Ransom Theory, you have the Devil, created by God, allowed to subjugate the people, so that they might appeal to God to save them. Jesus, by this notion, was the ransom, with the trials a philosophical exploration of the principles involved. The biggest problem with Ransom is that Jesus' mission is thus completed at his death, and, having ransomed humanity from Evil's clutches, no longer has any compelling reason to involve himself in human affairs.

* Salvation Theory

So goes the idea that the Devil and God are eternally at war for the Universe, one of the driving thematic departures of the Christian gospels from their Judaic heritage. Modern Christians are most familiar with Salvation Theory. I, personally, have never met a living Ransomist.

There are a few problems with Salvation Theory, most of them actually quite blatant, though the soothing balm of faith makes them seem much more subtle--perhaps, even, less important--than they truly are.

The first question, of course, is "Who is saved?" In this sense, there's a number of considerations to be had. Jews? Jewish converts to Christianity? All converts to Christianity? All people?

It would seem, though, especially in the modern sense, that all those who convert to Christianity are eligible for Salvation. Now the moral questions begin.

--What of those who have never heard of Jesus Christ? We might find this notion odd in the modern day, but there are a few corners of the world left that have not endured the coming-of-age that sets on when encountering the force of Christianization. Better context? Imagine the year after Jesus died. How many people on the face of the earth knew who he was? How many of them would be eligible to be saved? How many would be condemned to Hell for the mere crime of being born in a certain place on the face of the Earth?

--Infant baptisms are designed to initiate a member into the body of Christ before that aspirant has a clue what to what they aspire, much less that they aspire at all. I consider infant baptism to be immoral, especially when Christians can't agree on its necessity. (I had a Lutheran lay-teacher who was stunned that some of the 12 year-olds in her confirmation classes hadn't been baptized as infants. She was actually morally offended that the parents would "endanger their souls". :rolleyes: )

--The most part of modern salvation doctrine fails to address what must be done in order to achieve salvation. What this creates is a situation in which the faithful aspirants undercut each others' efforts as they feel their souls imperiled both by their own questions of faith, as well as their failure to "save" their fellow Christian aspirants who are so unfortunate as to be misguided. (Seventh-Day Adventists, for instance, seem to follow a general trend describing the Pope as Satan, and Catholics as the Devil's minions.)

The whole of the Salvation Club reminds me of my parents' admonitions about smoking, drugs, or other nefarious challenges of youth. That those doing wrong want others to do wrong with them so that the wrongdoers might assuage their own guilt by the illusion of solidarity and acceptance.

I knew children to be frightened for their lives and souls because their parents taught them that they had to be in order to be saved. I knew children who tried their damnedest to frighten everyone else, threatening that God will strike us all down, because their parents taught them that they had to in order to be saved.

We see widespread espousal of conditions describing the most miserable bastards in the world deciding to believe in Jesus at the last second of their lives, and being redeemed simply because they "asked the savior into their hearts."

A dumbass "Community Church" preacher in Sumner, Washington, upon the death of a friend of mine, lied about a 15 year-old girl, painted the abuse of her home as a cosmic struggle between God and the Devil, so that he might, when they laid to rest, do so with the comfort that her sacrifice had moved us to ask Jee-zuhs into our hearts.

Encomienda, the Spaniard attempt to enslave indigenous American tribes, finds its justification in Salvation Theory. (Incidentally, I think encomienda would have been easier to justify under Ransom Theory, but that's a matter of timing.) So were the "Prayer Towns" of the Anglo-American colonies. (Ever read Conrad Richter, A Light in the Forest?)

Having mentioned prayer towns and encomienda, I feel compelled to drag an Australian jackass back up out of the mire, but merely to mention that when an MP disparaged recompense for dislocation/relocation of Aboriginies, it was the God of salvationist ideas he was referring to when he called the Aboriginal Australian "The lowest colour of evolution on God's creation."

He was not referring to the Heaviside Layer (the deity of Jellicle cats). That is, Salvation Theory is the justification; you are, in your relocations/dislocations, attempting to raise the filthy aboriginies out of their subpar evolutionary condition.

Salvation is much like the American dollar: it is a form of moral currency which only matters when compared to the next person.

* Immorality of Salvation

Salvation which comes from a process of sin, abasement, confession, repentence, forgiveness, and deliverance is an immoral means to a moral-seeming end. Salvation Theory fosters the notion that, whatever mistakes we can make, we can atone for simply by praising Jesus. That a wrong-minded Christian directly fostered this or that tragedy in the past is not so much an offense to those of us watching the Salvation farce as would be, oh, the idea that modern Christians still haven't bothered to learn the lessons of past sins. Imagine that we sit here, condemning a past tragedy, arguing over its moral implications, attempting to dismiss it, when, all the while, we're simply avoiding the fact that we need to actively prevent our ongoing reenactment of the original tragedy.

We can, by some extant Salvation Theories, continue our course of sin, hurting as many people as we can, and then deciding in the midnight our of our existence, that as the darkness closes, we need something more hopeful than the cold of the grave. Thus, we see Jesus, and are redeemed, are saved. Our salvation comes from where we put our faith, not in how that faith manifests itself in our acts. In 1992 a Christian threw a firebomb through the front window of a house in Salem, Oregon, and killed two people for the crime of being gay. Modern salvation theory says that the bomber's going to heaven, and the victims aren't. Tell me what's moral. It's like telling me what's in the Billboard Top 10. Salvation morality is at least as contrived as Brittany Spears.

There's that guy over at the World Church, who, upon learning of the suicide of a church member, who killed multiple persons for the crime of being born, mourned that a good soldier had to die that way, alongside Kikes and Gooks, and assured his congregation that their fellow fighter was now rejoicing at the right hand of God. Anyone can be saved. Being smart enough to not beg for it seems to be the real trick.

* Classism of Salvation

I'm saved, you're not. It is my "moral duty" to save you. Thus I shall destroy your ugly, pagan culture and install my own austere, judgemental institutions. I am better than you, because God says so. I will show you and guide you, and make a tidy profit in the meantime.

Any questions about that one?

* Out of breath ....

I'm going to stop now for a couple of reasons. Oxygen and Rambler: sorry to butt in on the conversation, but between the two of you, it suddenly hit me that I have a bit to get off my chest about this. Perhaps, if we need, I'll take it to its own thread.

Weaver: Sorry to digress so far. Should we be too far out on a tangent, I'm happy to return the thread to its regularly-scheduled program.

thanx all (very much, at that)
Tiassa :cool:

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Whether God exists or does not exist, He has come to rank among the most sublime and useless truths.--Denis Diderot
 
Tiassa,

*wow* Some day, some how, I'm gonna buy you a beer. You ougta be an author, you're wasting your time here. (What do you do for a living anyway? I'm curious, you seem to have more free time at work than I do, and that's saying something!) Anyway, 'nuff fan clubbing...

Cris,

A beer for you too, for good measure. Nice shot, I am indeed a Taurus, and a fairly stubborn one to boot. *tips hat* You could be a great phony phsychic, y'know! :D Don't worry 'bout getting personal, I'll letcha know if you start getting under my skin. I'm pretty much at home here, everyone knows all the gruesome details already. LOL.

Let me say I am not knocking science and logic, though I guess probably sounded like it. I'm knocking the view that science and logic are IT, period, end of story. I'm glued to science and nature programs if I'm watching TV (which I don't do much). That and The Simpsons are the only worthwhile things to watch, aside from the occasional presidential election going-ons, and that's more for comic relief than anything this year.

My husband is hardcore physics and math guy, I did well in the subjects myself. It is a wonderful beginning. But it is limited, too. You can't measure height with a measuring cup, y'know? There are very real things out there that are beyond current "logical" concepts. Perhaps science & logic will eventually catch up though, there is hope for that. :)

So, (going backwards..) I don't know if you could fairly call me part of the "New Age" group. Logic is my friend as well, I score well on IQ tests and such. I certainally don't think magick is better than science. I would dearly love to see science & logic finally merge with magick and the "supernatural". I don't see the divide, personally. I don't see the divide between universe and the Divine either though, I believe they are one and the same too. The more we learn about the universe, the more we learn about Divinity. :)

Take it easy,
~MC
 
Tiassa,

Great post.. no need to appolagise for "butting" in, well atleast to me anyway. If you didn't butt in and clear up most of the crap that spews out of me I'd come off as a bigger looney then i already do :D

BTW thanks for adding some cred' to what I said ;)
 
Tiassa-Great post. How do you find time to write so much? I mean, you don't just run off at the mouth (or keyboard). You actually put some great stuff up here. It's a joy to read! :) I think everyone here should buy you a beer.
 
Hey Tiassa, your post was brilliant! It rounded out many of the historical things I have been trying to get into the heads of many other people. As for the other comments.... It is true (in my reasoning) that science may just very well be the tool between Divine intervention, and science fact. Perhaps anyone who sets on only one side of the story is totally wrong, or totally right. Who knows? (This paradoxial thing is a pain in the posterior!!!) In my opinion. The Bible is just like any mythological work. It was meant to teach the reader several values the society holds dear. I don't think it was actually meant to be viewed as a Religional "Training Manual". Any comments on thins?
 
MC,

Phony psychic??? Hey I’m the real thing!!! Nah! It wasn’t too difficult – I was married to a Taurus for 18 years before we amicably divorced in 1992, we remain the best of friends. It hit me in one of your other posts to me; damn this feels awfully familiar. It was more tone than content. I just put everything together; the little bit of stubbornness I saw, the need for a spiritual dimension, the overall tone. But I do apologize if you now feel labeled and might be seen as predictable. But I have another advantage, I am a Virgo, another earthy type, and I have found that I usually have instant compatibility with every Taurus I meet.

I suspect we see things pretty much the same way but each with a slightly different bias. I downplay the spiritual/divinity aspects because they can’t be logically explained (a typical Virgo trait) but I also can’t rule them out because we simply don’t know enough. You I suspect see the reverse to some degree, but in the end I bet we’d reach the same general conclusions. We are both much too practical to do anything else.

I’ve looked at astrology in some depth over the years. There is clearly a correlation between personality and birth dates. But why it works remains largely a mystery. Some say magnetic fields and or gravity are the major influences, and there is some evidence for that. I doubt there is a supernatural influence. But when I pull off a successful prediction, usually when the indications are overwhelming, then it does often look like magic. And I will admit to using more instinctive intuition than scientific logic when making predictions. Ah well, so much for cerebral logic.

Have fun my friend.
Cris

PS. Husband huh! Rats!
 
Thank you all for your kindness. I actually thought I was being a bit of a bitch, but didn't seem compelled to rope myself in. I was just happy to make sense. :D

Weaver

Let them have a religious training manual. Let them have religious whatever they want. Where you draw the line, though, would be the application of that religious manual in any way, shape, or form, as a Handbook to Reality. With any issue, we need no religion to guide us, though it might serve as a useful reminder. When we discuss war, it's always who shot what first, and who blew up what next. We never discuss how it is that entire nations should work toward a vision of peace. We never seriously consider certain demonstrable ideas because they are offensive to the Handbook to Reality.

For instance, we might have a half-dozen workable solutions to the real-estate fight in Israel. Try causing those ideas to become real. I'm willing to bet that one or another Handbook to Reality will object on the grounds that common sense takes a back seat to the infinite wisdom of God.

We never discuss how education will combat economic imbalance and the coinciding racisms that motivate the Israeli and Palestinian factions. We never consider how the elimination of the seemingly elitist academic/cleric class in various religions results uniformly in a rise in fundamentalist violence. Consider what happend after Kemal Ataturk destroyed the Islamic intellectual class in Turkey. (Fundamentalism, fundamentalism, fundamentalism!)

As a result, we let religion be an excuse for social manipulation. Consider Saddam Hussein. Personally, I'm convinced his whole thing has nothing to do with Kuwait, or Kurds, or anything but plain, straight water. Yet we worry about religious traditions, and allow those concerns to stall human wisdom while religion--the light of the world--performs "cleansings".

Mundane/Divine: ... Honestly, I figure whatever I call spiritual, religious, or divine stands a reasonable shot of being explained scientifically, should humanity last long enough. It's enough for me to be a part of it; I do not expect such questions to be fully resolved in this lifetime. But nobody will ever resolve anything if we keep arguing about whose Handbook to Reality is more definitive. I'm prone to say "Let them rot," except they'll take the rest of us down with them.

MoonCat

Simply put:

* Thank you ... (chug-chug-aaah! :D )
* I keep a cheap job in a corporate mailroom. This way I don't have to take any work home with me, and I have blocks of time I can exploit during the day so that ...
* I can, someday, fulfill that starry-eyed childhood wish to be as good to the page as Shel Silverstein, whose Tree gave me much, much more than either he or I could have hoped for. ;)
* (All members of Tiassa's Fan Club are required to dance for four minutes in a bikini to the strains of Joe Cocker's You Can Leave Your Hat On. ;) :D )

O2

Thank you ... you have me partway speechless, as anything I say would tarnish such a compliment. ;)

Rambler

It is important for me to note that I've been piggybacking off your posts, lately. For a while, I've been sort of screaming at the wind, or, if not that, some of our fellow posters (Bowser, for instance, and of course our friend Lori). But since I'm usually prepared to be told I'm wrong for this or that assumption, I must admit that you've set me up quite nicely for unloading a few things weighing on my chest. For that, I thank you. (Seriously ... it never would have occurred to me to say it as simply as: What angers me most is your imoral belief in salvation. Of course not. Me? I just had to get cutesy and call it all sorts of names.) :D

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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Whether God exists or does not exist, He has come to rank among the most sublime and useless truths.--Denis Diderot
 
Well, Just yesterday I was talking to my girlfriend about the Bible, and the people who misread it. She told me that the ones who misread it are called Satan's Bible or something like that..... I was also told that they changed some of the text to fit their own views. In my opinion, this is not true. If you think of it in a certain way, then that is how it seems. To me this sounds like a blind faith act. (the type I hate.) I have always detested the act of blind faith at times. Religious people are often always trying to explain to everyone that god had a purpose... If that is so. Why should as good man die humiliatingly and in poverty, and an evil man live in success and riches? Why should those we hold dear die to the intoxicated stupidity of others? Are we to believe that, that person's purpose in life was to teach the drunkard to cut back on drinking? If that is so, then how do we know if we were actually destined to do anything of importance?
 
Tiassa,

Corporate mailroom, huh? LOL, that works! I'm one of those pasty-skinned cubicle dwellers, lurking in my territory behind many many boxes of electronic bits and LED's called "computers", with volumes of black cables tied into neat bunches, like Medusa after a hairdresser visit. I feel like a Borg most of the time, LOL.

As such, you might want to waive the bikini requirements for your fan club in my case. Not only would the white skin probably blind you, my hiney isn't any narrower from years of office-chair sitting, LOL! I would recommend a belly-dance instead. I'm not good at it, but the outfit is much more forgiving. :D

Shel Silverstein...I must read the Giving Tree again, it's been simply ages. That's one book that's never made it into my library, probably high time to recify that, eh? I always figured if I were to write a book, I'd end up turning out something much like Douglas Adam's "Dirk Gently" books. I love those books. :)

Blessings, my friend.
 
MC ...

Once upon a time, I actually had a fan club of about three people. It looked larger, but at least one of them had her own fan club. (Well, I know she does now, but no name-dropping.)

One of my fans was a brilliant young lady whom I never had the mis/fortune (?!) of dating; though that bodes well for when we see each other every couple of years at a local lit convention. None of that akward glance-about crap, y'know? :)

One of my fans was actually an aspiring Satanist. That one was my fault, but he was brilliant, rich, disaffected, and apparently in love with me. (Really, I coulda married for the money. I just wouldn't live in Oregon. ;) )

Neither of them ever got around to dancing in a bikini. Sad thing is that it would have been to something infinitely worse than Joe Cocker. (Oh, Cinderella's Push-Push comes to mind... :rolleyes: :D )

The third member of my fan club did, eventually, dance for me in many different things. Rather, we'll leave that melodrama for when we get a chance to get each other far too drunk for our renal organs.

Have you yet found a copy of Good Omens: the Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch ...? Neil Gaiman and Terry Prachett are, truly, outstanding in that one. But be ready for lots of jokes about the Brits (including currency and Milton Keynes). ;)

Uncle Shelby .... When I think of The Giving Tree, I wonder what people mean when they say there's no role models left. (Miss ya, Shel, badly. ;) )

Damn, now I'm obliged to go somewhere and be maudlin. Giving Tree is what made me want to be a writer. And I never, ever, not even once, wrote him a letter or anything to tell him. I'll go be maudlin, now. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

PS in edit ... don't worry 'bout your hiney. Remember, if I make you dance, you can sue me. :D
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Whether God exists or does not exist, He has come to rank among the most sublime and useless truths.--Denis Diderot

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited October 12, 2000).]
 
Let me ask you this. Do you people honestly believe the inquisition was the will of God?

The bible plainly states "Thou shalt not kill." Therefore, we know that the inquisition was not the will of God. The will of God is the word of God. The word of God is the bible.

Do you people honestly believe that God was behind the inquisition? Do you think Jesus would ever say, kill all of those people who do not believe in me! On the contrary he would say...forgive them Father, they no not what they do.

Sins is what leads to suffering, but not all suffering is from sin. Has God sinned? No. Did Jesus ever kill anyone? No. What Jesus did and does is forgive people who do these types of things.

The bible says nothing of those not hearing the word of the gospel being condemned.

Tiassa, I don't understand why you condemn God, for peoples sins, when God said not to do it. Your rebellion against God sounds like its actually a rebellion against man.

God feels just as sad then you about the inquisition. What right do you have to get angry at Him?

God did not come to offer salvation so that we could scoff at other people, salvation is a free gift from God, therefore, how can I boast about something of which I have not earned?

No christian has the right to take pride in their salvation. The bible states that it is a free gift, then how can anyone boast? This is the will of God. The will of God is not christians having the right to boast to others about their free gift.


[This message has been edited by Deadwood (edited October 14, 2000).]
 
Hey Tiassa~

Now you've gone and done it. You made me go and pull out Joe's Organic CD and start listening to it at 7:00 on Saturday morning (I didn't get around to reading your message until now - I don't get to play here at work, and yes, I am jealous!). By the way, I love that song! But, to give credit where credit's due, it's not precisely Joe Cocker's (although I do love his rendition of it). Actually, Randy Newman wrote it and played the piano in Joe's version. And who could forget the Tom Jones version they used in "The Full Monty"? Not to mention the fact that Etta James does a great version that you can feel free to can dance to yourself! ;) Meanwhile, here I am squirming in my chair to the strains of "You Can Leave Your Hat On." (Did I mention that I'm taking belly-dancing lessons these days? :D )

Oh, and great post (as usual)! You can include me in the Tiassa fan club, but like MoonCat, I prefer the belly-dancer's costume! :D

Blessings,

Emerald

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.
 
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