God, the Source of all Good, the Creator of all things, the all-powerful, omniscient, most perfect being in the history of the universe, why would an all-powerful God need to send some other man/demigod/myth to save his human race? Either God isn't all-powerful or us humans don't need saving.
Who's on first--God or Jesus?
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
- Start date
what were we saved from?
I always wondered what the significance of Jesus dying "for our sins" to "save us" was. Couldn't god have choose a more literal method to save us, like say.... a snap of his fingers or a mere wisp of thought. Or was God trying to be symbolic or dramatic or something? Could a regular person with good intentions and love for all have died for our sins in Jesus's place? Or could the slaughter of a hundred goats have sufficed?
And what exactly does "saving" accomplish? In other words, what did it change? Did it change the way we think? Like a software patch for a buggy program. Or maybe it erased a portion of God's memory which contained thoughts of our sins? Did Jesus's death physically allow God to forgive us for our sins? What purpose did the saving process serve? Did it change God, or did it change us? Or did it not really accomplish anything beyond just being a symbolic plot device?
I always wondered what the significance of Jesus dying "for our sins" to "save us" was. Couldn't god have choose a more literal method to save us, like say.... a snap of his fingers or a mere wisp of thought. Or was God trying to be symbolic or dramatic or something? Could a regular person with good intentions and love for all have died for our sins in Jesus's place? Or could the slaughter of a hundred goats have sufficed?
And what exactly does "saving" accomplish? In other words, what did it change? Did it change the way we think? Like a software patch for a buggy program. Or maybe it erased a portion of God's memory which contained thoughts of our sins? Did Jesus's death physically allow God to forgive us for our sins? What purpose did the saving process serve? Did it change God, or did it change us? Or did it not really accomplish anything beyond just being a symbolic plot device?
Re: what were we saved from?
M*W: What does "saving" save us from? Christians would say "hell." But, see, since Christians created the concept of hell they had to create the concept of a savior to save us from hell. In other words, they recreated God for their purpose of salvation. Now that is the only God they now call 'Jesus'. Since Christians made up the concept of hell, Jesus, and salvation, they're the only ones who need to worry about hell. The rest of us are doing fine.
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M*W: What does "saving" save us from? Christians would say "hell." But, see, since Christians created the concept of hell they had to create the concept of a savior to save us from hell. In other words, they recreated God for their purpose of salvation. Now that is the only God they now call 'Jesus'. Since Christians made up the concept of hell, Jesus, and salvation, they're the only ones who need to worry about hell. The rest of us are doing fine.
IF there is a God that created us, it doesn't make sense to me that we would need to be "saved."
Being all-powerfull, all God needed to do was simply decide to save us(whatever saving us really means). Instead he choose to make Jesus suffer a horrible death for the sake of symbolism, and then he decided to save us. God obviously had the power all along to grant us salvation(whatever salvation is), but I guess he expects us all to believe that sending in his droid, Jesus, actually did the trick(whatever that trick was).
If God's into symbolism, why didn't he just release some doves into the air, or make it rain for a week straight.
Being all-powerfull, all God needed to do was simply decide to save us(whatever saving us really means). Instead he choose to make Jesus suffer a horrible death for the sake of symbolism, and then he decided to save us. God obviously had the power all along to grant us salvation(whatever salvation is), but I guess he expects us all to believe that sending in his droid, Jesus, actually did the trick(whatever that trick was).
If God's into symbolism, why didn't he just release some doves into the air, or make it rain for a week straight.
Christians like bloodshed. The bloodier, the better. Releasing doves just doesn't do it for them. (see Crucifixion, Inquisition, Crusades, Burning Times, Holocaust, etc.)
Just between you and me, matnay, there's rumors that Jesus really didn't exist and the crucifixion was all staged, but don't tell the Christians. They think they're saved!
Ring Between Smokes
"Ring Between Smokes"
The scene is an idyllic day in suburbia when the sunshine makes one last stand against the changing seasons, the bright and sharply contrasted calm after blustery winds, bruised clouds, and stinging rain. Out back of a modest rambler house with cake-frosting stylistics, Tiassa sits smoking and reading a volume of Neil Simon's collected plays.
Tiassa: (taps ashes, reads aloud to himself) "Success, I grant you, is relative. From an outsider's point of view, it is measured by the degree of his admiration, respect, envy or disdain. From inside looking out, it is no greater nor less than you perceive yourself." (shuts book, stares thoughtfully at the sun through closed eyes).
Seconds pass, smoke curls. In the trees, small birds sing a pleasant murmur. In the corner of a yard, a black and gold cat with Siamese eyes flashes between a toolshed and three evergreens knotted up in the corner of the yard. Somewhere closeby, feline eyes the color of the sky follow the intruding cat.
A telephone rings, Tiassa sweeps himself and the book up and flicks the cigarette away to the concrete patio. Moving quickly, he slips inside after the telephone, hoping the baby hasn't woken. He is not watching when the cigarette hits the concrete and spits its embers to die in the afternoon. He does not see the black and gold cat spring to alarm and dart across the lawn. He does not see the white and blue flash from the far corner. He does not hear the birds fall to silence, but does know a moment of value has slipped away to shatter on the rocks.
Tiassa: (snatches up telephone) Aye. Hey ... ayuh. Okay .... Okay .... Can do ... Alright. rolls eyes, winks at the curious baby now awake and watching him from a playpen)
The baby smiles and gurgles, but the sounds of the television draw her attention. She stands up in the playpen, squeals gleefully, points at Sagwa the Chinese Siamese Cat.
Tiassa: (nods his head side to side, eyes rolled, mouthing mimicry at the phone) Alright. Yes. Yes ... at the bar, well, I figured that ... (exaggerated, frustrated, and possibly unheard by the other party) Ooooo-tay. (hangs up telephone)
The baby turns and yelps, standing in the playpen and waving her hands until she falls over. Tiassa smiles, squats down beside playpen and manages to fix the sitting baby's attention for a couple of seconds. He opens the book, still watching her, and then lowers his head to read aloud.
Tiassa: (reading aloud) "I have dozens upon dozens of awards, nominations and tributes, most of which hang in my bathroom on a wall facing the commode. I am too vain to store them in the basement and humble enough to know they seem to be in the right perspective from the low vantage point I view them from. I rejoice in the flattering letters I receive from my peers and thoughtful admirers who rank my plays anywhere from 'a delightful evening' to 'worthy of Molière.' They do not, however, counterbalance the humiliation endured on the opening night of God's Favorite, when a kindly semi-invalided woman in her mid-seventies beckoned to me at the final curtain as I made my way backstage, took me by the arm, looked me straight in the eye and said, 'Mr. Simon ... shame on you!' It's moment's like this that take the lustre out of an opening-night party."
The baby laughs and claps her hands as Tiassa shuts the book with subtle melodrama. He smiles avidly at the baby, who squeals and claps more and falls over sideways. Chuckling, Tiassa stands, points affectionately and kitschily at the baby and walks into the next room to put the book down. He sits down in front of his computer and begins clicking links in the web browser. After a moment, he stops and reads. His head twitches the negative reflexively. His brow furrows, and he doesn't quite scowl but rather seems viciously amused.
Tiassa: (murmurs) O ... kay. Try that again. (reads softly to himself from website) "God, the Source of all Good, the Creator of all things, the all-powerful, omniscient, most perfect being in the history of the universe, why would an all-powerful God need to send some other man/demigod/myth to save his human race? Either God isn't all-powerful or us humans don't need saving." (shakes his head more thoughtfully this time)
The baby gives a frustrated squeal.
Baby: (smiling, clapping) Ba! ... Ba! ... Da-na-na-na-na-na-na-ya! (waves hands about)
Tiassa: (warmly) I hear you, honey. (closes browser and gets up)
Baby: (stands in playpen, slaps palm against top rail in rhythm) Ba-na-na-na-na-da-ya!
Tiassa: (walks to playpen, bends at waist, speaks in exaggerated tones) What's-up-you? Want-a-ba-ba? (the baby squeals in apparent delight. Tiassa looks down at himself and realizes he is still wearing smoking clothes) I'll be right back, honey. Gotta go change. (walks out of room, muttering to himself) Omnipotent, salvation, omnipotent, salvation. (stops halfway down the hall, calls back to baby) You know that one, don't you, Baby?
Baby: (assertively) Ba! (claps hands, falls over)
In the bedroom, Tiassa spies a pipe. He checks the bowl and finds to his delight that there is still marijuana inside.
Tiassa: (quietly excited) Well, now. That explains it. (raises pipe, hits it, holds breath, exhales smoke and murmurs to himself again as he tamps the bud with his thumb) All-powerful, all-perfect. All-powerful, all-perfect. (chuckles, hits pipe again) I mean, you'd think they'd figure it out. Fuck. (hits pipe again, grimaces, picks ash from his tongue) Blech. (puts pipe down, changes clothes, listens for the baby, moves to the bathroom to wash his hands) Russell ... Russell ... okay that's not here but it doesn't matter anyway. It's beside the point. That's right, it doesn't matter. (shakes water from hands in gesture of disgust) Fuck.
In the other room the baby becomes more impatient, stands up and starts muttering her disapproval with the delay. Tiassa appears, moving swiftly with faux-grace exposed when he accidentally bangs his hand on the wall. The baby, however, is delighted by this and applauds.
Baby: (happily) Ah-ba-ba-ba-da-ya-na.
Tiassa: (grimacing, nursing hand) Yeah. You-like-that-don't-you? (smiles broadly, evoking a joyous peal from the baby) You like watching Daddy bang into walls? (the baby applauds) Yeah you do. (he eyes his computer) I bet you can't wait to learn to read so you can see people banging into walls lots and lots. (the baby laughs) In the meantime, you can laugh at Daddy banging into the walls. You want a ba-ba?
Baby: (clearly and enthusiastically; throws hands in the air, falls over) Ba!
Tiassa: (impressed, grabbing bottle and formula can) I see.
Baby: (authoritatively) Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba!
Tiassa: (adds formula, adds water, screws on bottle lid) It's all speculation, you know. (shakes bottle)
Baby: (almost as if mimicking) Ay ... ya.
The shaking of the bottle has a Pavlovian effect, and the baby shouts once, sits, and stares at the bottle as Tiassa hands it over. Satisfied, the baby turns her attention back to the TV and kicks back.
Tiassa: (thoughtfully) Why do you think they forget that? It's what they're complaining about all the time.
Baby: (turns a disdainful eye toward his voice as if to shut him up) Gur ....
Shaking his head and smiling, Tiassa backs away from the baby and into the next room, where he spies the Simon volume and moves to pick it up. Reconsidering, he spies a compact literary journal sitting next to a pack of cigarettes. He gathers these things up, moves back out to the sunlit backyard, grins at the blue-eyed, smoke-white cat curled in triumphant and smarmy indolence on the picnic table. He sits, lights a cigarette, and stares up at the sun through closed eyes. A quick smile because it's a bad idea, and he squints against the daylight and opens the well-read journal instinctively to a page.
Tiassa: (exhales smoke, reads quietly aloud) "The skull distills the sun, shadow by shadow, like black honey across the descent of its eyes" . . . .
- Fin -
"Ring Between Smokes"
The scene is an idyllic day in suburbia when the sunshine makes one last stand against the changing seasons, the bright and sharply contrasted calm after blustery winds, bruised clouds, and stinging rain. Out back of a modest rambler house with cake-frosting stylistics, Tiassa sits smoking and reading a volume of Neil Simon's collected plays.
Tiassa: (taps ashes, reads aloud to himself) "Success, I grant you, is relative. From an outsider's point of view, it is measured by the degree of his admiration, respect, envy or disdain. From inside looking out, it is no greater nor less than you perceive yourself." (shuts book, stares thoughtfully at the sun through closed eyes).
Seconds pass, smoke curls. In the trees, small birds sing a pleasant murmur. In the corner of a yard, a black and gold cat with Siamese eyes flashes between a toolshed and three evergreens knotted up in the corner of the yard. Somewhere closeby, feline eyes the color of the sky follow the intruding cat.
A telephone rings, Tiassa sweeps himself and the book up and flicks the cigarette away to the concrete patio. Moving quickly, he slips inside after the telephone, hoping the baby hasn't woken. He is not watching when the cigarette hits the concrete and spits its embers to die in the afternoon. He does not see the black and gold cat spring to alarm and dart across the lawn. He does not see the white and blue flash from the far corner. He does not hear the birds fall to silence, but does know a moment of value has slipped away to shatter on the rocks.
Tiassa: (snatches up telephone) Aye. Hey ... ayuh. Okay .... Okay .... Can do ... Alright. rolls eyes, winks at the curious baby now awake and watching him from a playpen)
The baby smiles and gurgles, but the sounds of the television draw her attention. She stands up in the playpen, squeals gleefully, points at Sagwa the Chinese Siamese Cat.
Tiassa: (nods his head side to side, eyes rolled, mouthing mimicry at the phone) Alright. Yes. Yes ... at the bar, well, I figured that ... (exaggerated, frustrated, and possibly unheard by the other party) Ooooo-tay. (hangs up telephone)
The baby turns and yelps, standing in the playpen and waving her hands until she falls over. Tiassa smiles, squats down beside playpen and manages to fix the sitting baby's attention for a couple of seconds. He opens the book, still watching her, and then lowers his head to read aloud.
Tiassa: (reading aloud) "I have dozens upon dozens of awards, nominations and tributes, most of which hang in my bathroom on a wall facing the commode. I am too vain to store them in the basement and humble enough to know they seem to be in the right perspective from the low vantage point I view them from. I rejoice in the flattering letters I receive from my peers and thoughtful admirers who rank my plays anywhere from 'a delightful evening' to 'worthy of Molière.' They do not, however, counterbalance the humiliation endured on the opening night of God's Favorite, when a kindly semi-invalided woman in her mid-seventies beckoned to me at the final curtain as I made my way backstage, took me by the arm, looked me straight in the eye and said, 'Mr. Simon ... shame on you!' It's moment's like this that take the lustre out of an opening-night party."
The baby laughs and claps her hands as Tiassa shuts the book with subtle melodrama. He smiles avidly at the baby, who squeals and claps more and falls over sideways. Chuckling, Tiassa stands, points affectionately and kitschily at the baby and walks into the next room to put the book down. He sits down in front of his computer and begins clicking links in the web browser. After a moment, he stops and reads. His head twitches the negative reflexively. His brow furrows, and he doesn't quite scowl but rather seems viciously amused.
Tiassa: (murmurs) O ... kay. Try that again. (reads softly to himself from website) "God, the Source of all Good, the Creator of all things, the all-powerful, omniscient, most perfect being in the history of the universe, why would an all-powerful God need to send some other man/demigod/myth to save his human race? Either God isn't all-powerful or us humans don't need saving." (shakes his head more thoughtfully this time)
The baby gives a frustrated squeal.
Baby: (smiling, clapping) Ba! ... Ba! ... Da-na-na-na-na-na-na-ya! (waves hands about)
Tiassa: (warmly) I hear you, honey. (closes browser and gets up)
Baby: (stands in playpen, slaps palm against top rail in rhythm) Ba-na-na-na-na-da-ya!
Tiassa: (walks to playpen, bends at waist, speaks in exaggerated tones) What's-up-you? Want-a-ba-ba? (the baby squeals in apparent delight. Tiassa looks down at himself and realizes he is still wearing smoking clothes) I'll be right back, honey. Gotta go change. (walks out of room, muttering to himself) Omnipotent, salvation, omnipotent, salvation. (stops halfway down the hall, calls back to baby) You know that one, don't you, Baby?
Baby: (assertively) Ba! (claps hands, falls over)
In the bedroom, Tiassa spies a pipe. He checks the bowl and finds to his delight that there is still marijuana inside.
Tiassa: (quietly excited) Well, now. That explains it. (raises pipe, hits it, holds breath, exhales smoke and murmurs to himself again as he tamps the bud with his thumb) All-powerful, all-perfect. All-powerful, all-perfect. (chuckles, hits pipe again) I mean, you'd think they'd figure it out. Fuck. (hits pipe again, grimaces, picks ash from his tongue) Blech. (puts pipe down, changes clothes, listens for the baby, moves to the bathroom to wash his hands) Russell ... Russell ... okay that's not here but it doesn't matter anyway. It's beside the point. That's right, it doesn't matter. (shakes water from hands in gesture of disgust) Fuck.
In the other room the baby becomes more impatient, stands up and starts muttering her disapproval with the delay. Tiassa appears, moving swiftly with faux-grace exposed when he accidentally bangs his hand on the wall. The baby, however, is delighted by this and applauds.
Baby: (happily) Ah-ba-ba-ba-da-ya-na.
Tiassa: (grimacing, nursing hand) Yeah. You-like-that-don't-you? (smiles broadly, evoking a joyous peal from the baby) You like watching Daddy bang into walls? (the baby applauds) Yeah you do. (he eyes his computer) I bet you can't wait to learn to read so you can see people banging into walls lots and lots. (the baby laughs) In the meantime, you can laugh at Daddy banging into the walls. You want a ba-ba?
Baby: (clearly and enthusiastically; throws hands in the air, falls over) Ba!
Tiassa: (impressed, grabbing bottle and formula can) I see.
Baby: (authoritatively) Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba!
Tiassa: (adds formula, adds water, screws on bottle lid) It's all speculation, you know. (shakes bottle)
Baby: (almost as if mimicking) Ay ... ya.
The shaking of the bottle has a Pavlovian effect, and the baby shouts once, sits, and stares at the bottle as Tiassa hands it over. Satisfied, the baby turns her attention back to the TV and kicks back.
Tiassa: (thoughtfully) Why do you think they forget that? It's what they're complaining about all the time.
Baby: (turns a disdainful eye toward his voice as if to shut him up) Gur ....
Shaking his head and smiling, Tiassa backs away from the baby and into the next room, where he spies the Simon volume and moves to pick it up. Reconsidering, he spies a compact literary journal sitting next to a pack of cigarettes. He gathers these things up, moves back out to the sunlit backyard, grins at the blue-eyed, smoke-white cat curled in triumphant and smarmy indolence on the picnic table. He sits, lights a cigarette, and stares up at the sun through closed eyes. A quick smile because it's a bad idea, and he squints against the daylight and opens the well-read journal instinctively to a page.
Tiassa: (exhales smoke, reads quietly aloud) "The skull distills the sun, shadow by shadow, like black honey across the descent of its eyes" . . . .
- Fin -
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According to some christians I have spoke with, many say that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice, thus, eliminating the need for the animal sacrifices in the ritual of the day of atonement. Something about his blood that is suppose to be the "power" to eliminate the sins of the world.
I know the Bible says that Jesus was here to fulfill the will of his father. So what is it that makes god so blood thirsty? I mean there was the animal sacrifices..his own son/self? It seems pretty barbaric to me. I think you bring up a valid question, M*W. Good Thread!
Thanks. It doesn't make any sense to me that Jesus, if he existed, would stand in for animal sacrifices and such. When Jesus said he was here to fulfill the will of his Father, I interpret that Jesus was here to TEACH the will of the Father, but not be a sacrifice. The whole idea of crucifying one's only "begotten" son is preposterous! In any case, the whole Bible was plagarized from earlier Sumerian and Mesopotamian legends that included saviors born on December 25th of a virgin who was later sacrificed. If we eliminate everything in the Bible, Old and New Testaments alike, we'd be better off. The whole thing is just rewritten myths from ancient texts.
What I can't understand is how some christians can overlook that fact, can they not see the striking resemblance from older texts? However, there are some people that seem to think that those texts are confirming the bible. Yet, they fail to see that they by far predate the "events" that took place in the bible.
They've been brainwashed to believe the Bible contains the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!
Jesus wasn't sent to save anyone - he was sent as a stumblingblock (idol) to ensnare the notoriously idolatrous Jews! There is nothing the god of Abraham hated more than to be upstaged by anyone or anything. Ezekiel 14:1-11 is particularly revealing of god's attitude in this regard:
Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me. And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them? Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself: And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD.
Re: what were we saved from?
So Jesus was not a flash in the pan. God was making everything ready for the eventual act of salvation (including all the neccesary concepts of sacrifice, justice, holiness, etc.). But none of the elements are sufficient without the key to unlock them: the life they represent. The love they represent. A sacrifice seems a barbaric act to our mentalities, but to the people who practiced it, it represented total dependence on God. The sacrifice of Isaac was both a reminder of what exactly total devotion to God could mean, and to what God really intends with it: mercy. That was a turning point. The Israelites weren't stupid - they knew what these stories implied. Or do you think they invented the concept of a messiah at one stage, only to have to draw it out of their own Scriptures over hundreds of years of study later?
God revealed his will. He tought people how to live. And everytime his people strayed, he reeled them back in, and patiently continued the path He was walking with them. He lead them out of Egypt to a promised land, and even that was just an element of what was to come. God was building a new temple brick by brick - and from the very beginning he established its cornerstones: the offices of priest, prophets and kings were its body, the symbols of shepherd, suffering servant, and anointed kings were its clothing. God was revealing the method of His salvation: To establish Himself on the throne of humanity itself, within the kingdom of his own choice. And his work is still not finished. We are waiting for the coming of this Kingdom that God has prepared because Christ came to invite us to it.
If you take the events out of their context then you can come up with anything you like. But God chose to walk the road of his salvation with the people of his choice. And these people were those who remained faithful to Him. You wonder why the Bible contain similar legends than some who are supposedly "much older"? If God is really the Creator, where do you think the Sumerians came from? The question is really, did they remain faithful to what they believed, and did their gods stay with them? Apparently not. But one thread did remain: Abraham, from the (take note) Sumerian city of Ur. It was his descendents that God made his covenant with, who became Israel.
So Jesus was not a flash in the pan. God was making everything ready for the eventual act of salvation (including all the neccesary concepts of sacrifice, justice, holiness, etc.). But none of the elements are sufficient without the key to unlock them: the life they represent. The love they represent. A sacrifice seems a barbaric act to our mentalities, but to the people who practiced it, it represented total dependence on God. The sacrifice of Isaac was both a reminder of what exactly total devotion to God could mean, and to what God really intends with it: mercy. That was a turning point. The Israelites weren't stupid - they knew what these stories implied. Or do you think they invented the concept of a messiah at one stage, only to have to draw it out of their own Scriptures over hundreds of years of study later?
God revealed his will. He tought people how to live. And everytime his people strayed, he reeled them back in, and patiently continued the path He was walking with them. He lead them out of Egypt to a promised land, and even that was just an element of what was to come. God was building a new temple brick by brick - and from the very beginning he established its cornerstones: the offices of priest, prophets and kings were its body, the symbols of shepherd, suffering servant, and anointed kings were its clothing. God was revealing the method of His salvation: To establish Himself on the throne of humanity itself, within the kingdom of his own choice. And his work is still not finished. We are waiting for the coming of this Kingdom that God has prepared because Christ came to invite us to it.
God changed the way we could be reconciled with Him. He drew our attention to our position, and offered a way to restore a sustaining relationship with Him. God did not remove our ability to sin, but he removed its sting. God did not remove death, but He removed its power over us. He replaced the matrix with the real thing, but to the untrained eye everything still looks the same. It is only through seeking Him, learning about Him, and following Him that we realize that only our lives can make him visible. The further we are from Him, the less visible He is going to be, and the closer we get, the more we are conformed to the image He created us in originally. Jesus did not make God change His mind, history tells us that much, but He can make us change our minds, literally.
Jenyar,
God changed the way we could be reconciled with Him. He drew our attention to our position, and offered a way to restore a sustaining relationship with Him. ... Jesus did not make God change His mind, history tells us that much, but He can make us change our minds, literally.
Let me see if I've understood you correctly.
I believe you're saying that, in reality, the suffering and self-sacrifice that Jesus was put through was just an elaborate device to draw our attention towards our faulty way of life. In other words, there is no real reason to hold Jesus's sacriface in high regard as it was just a calculated means to an end. Basically, we're being duped, but duped for a good cause.
Words like salvation and sacrifice thus become meaningless advertising jargon, and importance should instead be placed on our own free will and our ability to change our minds by our own informed intellect, without concocted motivation and misplaced emotion.
God changed the way we could be reconciled with Him. He drew our attention to our position, and offered a way to restore a sustaining relationship with Him. ... Jesus did not make God change His mind, history tells us that much, but He can make us change our minds, literally.
Let me see if I've understood you correctly.
I believe you're saying that, in reality, the suffering and self-sacrifice that Jesus was put through was just an elaborate device to draw our attention towards our faulty way of life. In other words, there is no real reason to hold Jesus's sacriface in high regard as it was just a calculated means to an end. Basically, we're being duped, but duped for a good cause.
Words like salvation and sacrifice thus become meaningless advertising jargon, and importance should instead be placed on our own free will and our ability to change our minds by our own informed intellect, without concocted motivation and misplaced emotion.
No, the crucifixion was not just an elaborate scheme staged to represent some principle. Remember that we believe God resurrected Jesus from death, and that it was a very real historic event. However, its meaning had to be established. The rest of history wasn't "wasted", but it would have been without it.
God had already drawn attention to the faulty way of life long before - and people had in inborn realization of it, which is why sacrifice is a common religious phenomenon. It's a symptom of dependence and powerlessness to change circumstances. But sacrifices were never sufficient to restore innocense or make atonement, otherwise once would have been enough. But the mentality that required it had to be cultivated.
To bring the two together: salvation on the one hand and choice on the other. Our choice cannot be based on "concocted motivation and misplaced emotion" because we have a history to draw from. The interaction between all the parts are important. The value of the sacrifice had to be established first.
Romans 3:25
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, [3:25 Or as the one who would turn aside his wrath, taking away sin] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished–26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
The emphasis is on establishing a new relationship - a gift from God, but one we have to partake in. That, incidentally, is the idea behind communion.
I recommend this study on the sacrifice of Jesus for further reading.
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Re: Re: what were we saved from?
Christians may say that, but i believe there is more to it than that.
That's not true.
People believed in 'God' long before Christianity.
Love
Jan Ardena.
Christians may say that, but i believe there is more to it than that.
That's not true.
People believed in 'God' long before Christianity.
Love
Jan Ardena.
From each other, partly, but mostly from ourselves. "God" in Bruce Almighty put it nicely: "Since when did they know what's good for them?"
The concept of hell existed long before there were ever Christians. Most of it as we understand it today comes from paganism and Judaism. The Jews expected (and still expect) a messiah - Christians (and Muslims) believe he was the Jewish messiah. God invented salvation. People wouldn't have thought of it. Like you say, they think they were doing fine. But a person running straight towards danger is also "doing fine".
OverTheStars
Registered Senior Member
i can't think of the right word, but it has something to do with energy levels or something, we have dense energy bodies....what is it....well anyway maybe God needed someone to go down to Earth in another dimension body...feel free to translate what i just said people.
Makes me think of a forbidden word........
<font size=1 color="EEEEBB">sympathy</font>
<font size=1 color="EEEEBB">sympathy</font>
The sacrifice of Jesus still seems more like a show than a necessity. In the end, what significance does it give to religious people today? I get the impression that there is some sort of underlying guilt felt about Jesus's sacrific- that maybe Jesus "threw himself in front of the train" for us all, even though we don't deserve it. I also get the feeling- from hearing people constantly mention the sacrifice- of extreme thankfulness that He did so, and I see a sort of humbleness grows from this.
God's pre-calculated net result- Guilt, thankfulness, and humbleness- the three ingrediants for the perfect slave. God's purpose and meaning is clear to me- to recruit more followers. This reminds me of those "army of one" commercials.
God's pre-calculated net result- Guilt, thankfulness, and humbleness- the three ingrediants for the perfect slave. God's purpose and meaning is clear to me- to recruit more followers. This reminds me of those "army of one" commercials.