Why not (insert any fairytale title)?

[Thoreau]

I don't understand the logic behind religious beliefs based on books. I just can't wrap my head around it. It's too... foundationless.

I'm not insulting those who do believe, and I do respect (some to most) religious teachings, but rarely do I respect the believers. I respect the teachings because there are good morals presented to live by. But anywho, I'm getting off topic...

I just don't understand for the life of me how someone can take one book/series of books so seriously to the point that it engulfs their life and completely alters their prospective on this world and the very basic concept of life; at least when these books have no scientific evidence of containing even the slightest amount of truth or logic. Yeah, some scriptures do provide some great insight for humankind, but on the other hand I've found that they can destroy humankind if taken too literally.

And digressing back to fairytales; I find, in my years of research, that a number of childrens fairytale books contain just the same amount of truth and logic, if not sometimes more, than most religious scriptures. And looking at the brain patterns and behavioral characteristics of children when exposed to fairytale stories, I observe that the behavioral reactions and consequent following actions are very similar to those of religious adults. Children, when exposed, take great faith in their newly discovered tale of heroes, villians, and mythological mumbo-jumbo. It is very common for children to even SEE these figures in their minds eye, sometimes to the point that it distorts their actual reality. Frequently, they also alter their state of mind to force themselves to believe that what they heard is real. This can result in the development of disillusionment, hallucinations, and in severe cases, schizophrenia (More specifically MPD). And why do children do this? Because they lack proper experience in time in the actual world to fully understand the concept of reality. It is common for children to take any fictional tale that they can relate to in even the slightest degree, and "snowball" it to such a point that it becomes reality to them.

Sound familiar?

As stated previously, many religious adults act in the same exact manner as children.

What does this mean? Does it imply that many adult brains are under-developed and/or under-exposed?

And lastly, what is it that separates the adult fairytales from the childrens fairytales? Because we age and grasp the proper concept of grammer thus we must find a fairytale that relates to our level of intelligence?

Relative knowledge in the hands of religion becomes far from relative.

 

[S.A.M.]

Do you believe in the Constitution of the United States? Enough to say, go and kill for it?

 

[Thoreau]

Constitution of the United States

... based on actual events and proven logic.

 

[S.A.M.]

Its a fairy tale

 

[Thoreau]

Beauty and the Beast is a fairytale. Pinnochio is a fairytale. Sleeping Beauty is a fairytale. Why? Because they were all written and produced based on imagination in order to entertain. Find me a wooden boy who's nose actually grows when he lies. Then I'll take faith in it. Find me the slightest trace of any prove in religious tales, and I'll take faith in it. Until then, it remains a fairytale.

 

[one_raven]

The Tanakh was written as a history of the Jewish people and was a collection of their laws - not to entertain.
I can offer you hundreds of pieces of history in the Old Testament that are corroborated by secular history and accepted by historians as fact.
What size yarmulke do you wear?

 

[Thoreau]

The Tanakh was written as a history of the Jewish people and was a collection of their laws - not to entertain.
I can offer you hundreds of pieces of history in the Old Testament that are corroborated by secular history and accepted by historians as fact.
What size yarmulke do you wear?

Hence, most scripture, as I referred to previously. And that is an interesting fact/point. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Thoreau]

The Tanakh was written as a history of the Jewish people and was a collection of their laws - not to entertain.
I can offer you hundreds of pieces of history in the Old Testament that are corroborated by secular history and accepted by historians as fact.
What size yarmulke do you wear?

In further support of my OP, I recommend referring to the concepts of the trinity, divinity, miracles, laws (based on "God's" word), and even the history of the world and mankind as presented by the writers of most religious texts.

Again, there are some actual facts in all scriptures that have to do with the history during which was present at the time, such as kings, locale's, governments, etc. But I am referring more specifically to the "talking points" that make any one religion "divine" or "God's plan/agenda/work" etc.

 

[spidergoat]

Its a fairy tale

No it is not. It is an experiment in governance.

If you look at something like Aesop's fables, it is very much like religion. They are stories with a moral lesson. It doesn't matter if the stories really happened. The problem is, at some point people decided that it did matter that the stories were real, and their alleged reality became more important than the lessons they teach.

 

[Thoreau]

No it is not. It is an experiment in governance.

If you look at something like Aesop's fables, it is very much like religion. They are stories with a moral lesson. It doesn't matter if the stories really happened. The problem is, at some point people decided that it did matter that the stories were real, and their alleged reality became more important than the lessons they teach.

...Because as time goes by, there are new religions being invented along the way. Thus, the existing ones feel as though they have to prove that they are the legitimate religion of whatever God they chose, and thus all their efforts go to proving who's right and who's wrong in order to "stay in business". Gotta love ORGANIZED religion.

It's all a game of "My God has a bigger d**k than your God".

 

[one_raven]

It's not the religions - it's the people.

 

[Thoreau]

It's not the religions - it's the people.

And religions are.....? Yep, that's right. Man-made.

 

[s0meguy]

And religions are.....? Yep, that's right. Man-made.

of course not, all religions are manmade, except the one the person that believes happens to be born into

 

[one_raven]

And religions are.....? Yep, that's right. Man-made.

But, in most cases, the makers have long since died before the religion gets twisted and perverted from the original intentions.
Read the words of Jesus, then tell me modern Christianity follows them.

Most religions start by a person telling what he thinks is truth - and with the best intentions.
Once you share an idea, however, you no longer own it and it takes on a life of its own.
Religions are not inherently evil, bad or wrong.
People don't bomb abortion clinics because of Jesus.

People will take any excuse - religion, politics, skin color, fear, etc... - to try and control others and do their bidding for them.
Religion is no less or more evil than any form of political theory.
What people do with these things is evil.
If it weren't for religions, people would do just as much evil (maybe more, because some of the most profoundly kind and caring things have been done in the name of religion as well) they would just use another tool to manipulate people.

"Every tool is a weapon, if you hold it right." ~ Ani Difranco

 

[s0meguy]

But, in most cases, the makers have long since died before the religion gets twisted and perverted from the original intentions.
Read the words of Jesus, then tell me modern Christianity follows them.

Most religions start by a person telling what he thinks is truth - and with the best intentions.
Once you share an idea, however, you no longer own it and it takes on a life of its own.
Religions are not inherently evil, bad or wrong.
People don't bomb abortion clinics because of Jesus.

People will take any excuse - religion, politics, skin color, fear, etc... - to try and control others and do their bidding for them.
Religion is no less or more evil than any form of political theory.
What people do with these things is evil.
If it weren't for religions, people would do just as much evil (maybe more, because some of the most profoundly kind and caring things have been done in the name of religion as well) they would just use another tool to manipulate people.

"Every tool is a weapon, if you hold it right." ~ Ani Difranco

then you have to wonder why your god didn't design the message in such a way that it is not corruptible, or hell, design humans to live peacefully together, and not manipulate his message. i know, free will, but still, humans tendency towards violence and manipulation for peoples own gain could have been "designed" to not be there.

 

[Thoreau]

But, in most cases, the makers have long since died before the religion gets twisted and perverted from the original intentions.
Read the words of Jesus, then tell me modern Christianity follows them.

Most religions start by a person telling what he thinks is truth - and with the best intentions.
Once you share an idea, however, you no longer own it and it takes on a life of its own.
Religions are not inherently evil, bad or wrong.
People don't bomb abortion clinics because of Jesus.

People will take any excuse - religion, politics, skin color, fear, etc... - to try and control others and do their bidding for them.
Religion is no less or more evil than any form of political theory.
What people do with these things is evil.
If it weren't for religions, people would do just as much evil (maybe more, because some of the most profoundly kind and caring things have been done in the name of religion as well) they would just use another tool to manipulate people.

"Every tool is a weapon, if you hold it right." ~ Ani Difranco

I agree.

 

[one_raven]

then you have to wonder why your god didn't design the message in such a way that it is not corruptible, or hell, design humans to live peacefully together, and not manipulate his message. i know, free will, but still, humans tendency towards violence and manipulation for peoples own gain could have been "designed" to not be there.

My God?
Don't make assumptions about people - it just makes you look foolish.

 

[lightgigantic]

I don't understand the logic behind religious beliefs based on books. I just can't wrap my head around it. It's too... foundationless.

I'm not insulting those who do believe, and I do respect (some to most) religious teachings, but rarely do I respect the believers. I respect the teachings because there are good morals presented to live by. But anywho, I'm getting off topic...

I just don't understand for the life of me how someone can take one book/series of books so seriously to the point that it engulfs their life and completely alters their prospective on this world and the very basic concept of life;

Whats the very basic concept of life, in your humble opinion?

at least when these books have no scientific evidence of containing even the slightest amount of truth or logic.

even science has been shown, by dint of scientific disciplines, that it is also subject to issues surrounding its truth and logic (type I and II errors for instance).

The same is true of any discipline of knowledge, and even religion when it becomes divorced from the philosophical precepts that form its foundation.

Yeah, some scriptures do provide some great insight for humankind, but on the other hand I've found that they can destroy humankind if taken too literally.

Much like a little bit of ignorance injected into nuclear technology can spell bad news.

And digressing back to fairytales; I find, in my years of research, that a number of childrens fairytale books contain just the same amount of truth and logic, if not sometimes more, than most religious scriptures.

yet for some remarkable reason we don't see elaborate philosophical systems stemming from fairy tales (in fact there's a good argument for whatever philosophical content arising in fairy tales being derived from theological content - for instance issues of obligation, reward and punishment, duty, etc)

And looking at the brain patterns and behavioral characteristics of children when exposed to fairytale stories, I observe that the behavioral reactions and consequent following actions are very similar to those of religious adults.

Children, when exposed, take great faith in their newly discovered tale of heroes, villians, and mythological mumbo-jumbo. It is very common for children to even SEE these figures in their minds eye, sometimes to the point that it distorts their actual reality. Frequently, they also alter their state of mind to force themselves to believe that what they heard is real. This can result in the development of disillusionment, hallucinations, and in severe cases, schizophrenia (More specifically MPD).

What precisely is the "actual reality" that theism distorts?

I mean given that large portions of the world are theistically inclined, that well over 75% of the world's most credible philosophical outlooks have some factoring in of a transcendental state that underpins the paradigm (which again gives an influence in music, architecture, law and order and morals) ... all this things don't suggest a society of raving lunatics.

And why do children do this? Because they lack proper experience in time in the actual world to fully understand the concept of reality. It is common for children to take any fictional tale that they can relate to in even the slightest degree, and "snowball" it to such a point that it becomes reality to them.

Sound familiar?

sure does

The problem with tentative arguments is that the evidence that they call upon is so flexible that it can be taken just the opposite way.

For instance

looking at the brain patterns and behavioral characteristics of children when exposed to fairytale stories, I observe that the behavioral reactions and consequent following actions are very similar to those of atheistic adults.

.....

And why do children do this? Because they lack proper experience in time in the actual world to fully understand the concept of reality. It is common for children to take any fictional tale that they can relate to in even the slightest degree, and "snowball" it to such a point that it becomes reality to them.

IOW as long as you shy away from properly explaining what this notion of "reality" is you are working with, you are simply providing arguments that can be used to undermine your position.

As stated previously, many religious adults act in the same exact manner as children.

What does this mean? Does it imply that many adult brains are under-developed and/or under-exposed?

And lastly, what is it that separates the adult fairytales from the childrens fairytales? Because we age and grasp the proper concept of grammer thus we must find a fairytale that relates to our level of intelligence?

Viewing literacy as a simple issue of grammar is very shallow

IOW there is a bit of a stand off in comparing

Literacy is a concept claimed and defined by a range of different theoretical fields. In everyday terms, "literacy" is typically described as the ability to read and write.


with

The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) has drafted a definition of literacy as the "ability to identify, understand, interpret, create, communicate, compute and use printed and written materials associated with varying contexts. Literacy involves a continuum of learning in enabling individuals to achieve their goals, to develop their knowledge and potential, and to participate fully in their community and wider society.

Relative knowledge in the hands of religion becomes far from relative.

Relative knowledge in the hands of anyone who is advocating a world view is far from relative.

Even your posts illustrates this, by calling upon relative knowledge (children and fairy tales) to support a greater paradigm (that theistic claims are underpinned by falsity ) .... albeit a greater paradigm that you fail to elaborate on in any solid fashion (aside from it being your opinion).
:shrug:

 

[s0meguy]

My God?
Don't make assumptions about people - it just makes you look foolish.

defending religion makes you look like you're one of the believers, hiding whether you are or not is a weak strategy to shield yourself from criticism. obviously i didnt mean that as if you owned the god.

 

[spidergoat]

But, in most cases, the makers have long since died before the religion gets twisted and perverted from the original intentions.
Read the words of Jesus, then tell me modern Christianity follows them.

Most religions start by a person telling what he thinks is truth - and with the best intentions.
Once you share an idea, however, you no longer own it and it takes on a life of its own.
Religions are not inherently evil, bad or wrong.
People don't bomb abortion clinics because of Jesus.

People will take any excuse - religion, politics, skin color, fear, etc... - to try and control others and do their bidding for them.
Religion is no less or more evil than any form of political theory.
What people do with these things is evil.
If it weren't for religions, people would do just as much evil (maybe more, because some of the most profoundly kind and caring things have been done in the name of religion as well) they would just use another tool to manipulate people.

"Every tool is a weapon, if you hold it right." ~ Ani Difranco

How does that apply to Mormonism? I think that's a case of the opposite- a religion invented by a con man for the purposes of manipulating people. Fortunately it has become twisted and perverted into something even nice people can participate in. People do kill in the name of Mormonism, as recently as the 90's. If it weren't for the religion, those people would not have committed murder.