Why the discrepancies between the Hebrew and Christian texts?

M

Medicine*Woman

Jesus: Mythstory--Not History!
Valued Senior Member
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M*W: I believe it was CheskiChips who recently made a comparison between the Jewish text referring to Jesus as the son of Mary and Pandira. The Christian texts refer to Jesus as the son of Mary and God. This is a giant discrepancy, and I would like to hear more about the Jewish texts.

Secondly, am I correct in thinking that the writing or compiling of the OT may have overlapped or been somewhat completed later than the NT?

Thirdly, I find it particularly strange that the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 occurred before the NT was written and the OT was compiled.

Fourthy, Paul's Epistles were written before the Gospels were written. It has also been implied that they were all written in Rome, because Jerusalem was crushed by the Romans.

And fifthly, F. Josephus fought in the war that brought down Jerusalem, went back to Rome to write The Antiquity of the Jews and The War of the Jews, The Life of Josephus - Autobiography, Josephus's Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades and Against Apion. Much of what was written in the OT and NT was taken from Josephus's writings. Could Josephus have written the NT?
 
There is one more piece to that puzzle, Antiochus during his sacking of Jerusalem in 168 BC had all the Jewish books burned and outlawed Judaism. So where did the present Hebrew texts come from?

All the Books of the Law that could be found were burnt in the fire ; his purpose was that the Jewish religion should be wholly forgotten.
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Link
 
your quote says:

All the Books of the Law that could be found were burnt in the fire ; his purpose was that the Jewish religion should be wholly forgotten.
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Clearly if all the books where burned then there would be no need for the second part "that could be found". Therefore the only books that where burned where they books they found. Not all the books where burned.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
They had the entire Jewish world in their hands. And they destroyed the temple and banned Judaism. So who took the books? What is the history?

I read elsewhere that the Jews lost all of their lineage records in the second destruction, too.

The Emperor Vespasian, who had just the previous year become Emperor, decided to make an example of Jerusalem to prevent any other regions from revolting. Vespasian’s son Titus laid siege to the city of Jerusalem beginning in April of the year 70 A.D. By September of that year, the entire city had been destroyed, the temple itself had been burned to the ground and been dismantled stone by stone. All of the genealogical the records of the Jewish people were destroyed at that time.

The Jewish people continued on as they did during the Babylonian captivity. They continued worship in the synagogues and they even attempted to maintain their own genealogical records. As the centuries have gone by, all knowledge of who is a true descendant of Jacob has been lost. Those that call themselves Jews today, are not necessarily the Jews that we read of in the Bible. Over the years, many people of other races or nationalities have converted to some form of Judaism. To be a citizen of the modern state of Israel, all one must do is claim to be Jewish and they will be accepted as Jews.
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hey do you guys realise that its NOT "thou shall not kill"?
that is a compleate miss translation acording to our legal and philiosphy lecturer

The correct translation is "thou shall do no murder"

This really puts a whole in the anti abortion and anti euthanasia camp's arguments:)
 
thats a compleatly different argument and a fair one which requires a different argument from the otherside.

of course its not that hard to argue against,ie murder is a legal definition, and if vollentry euthanasia was legal then no its not murder

however those who argue against the laws based on the commandment "thou shall not kill" are plain wrong:) there IS no commandment against killing
 
Medicine Woman, I may have inadvertently said that or you appended the actual name. But I've never heard of Pandira.

The OT for Christians was Canonized with the NT, but for Jews it was canonized long before.

According to Jewish calendars it actually happened slightly be for 0 AD, if I recall correctly.

Sam, there were many cities that had all of the books. In fact in the story of Kamtza Bar Kamtza from the Talmud it discusses a man who fled out of Jerusalem and told one of the generals how to cure his illness. The general was so appreciative of this that granted him a favor. The Jewish man decided on this city (I forget the name) that was really the center of all of Jewish scholarship....maybe it was Tiberion or Safed? But that was the real educational center of Jewish thought...Jerusalem was just the capitol, not the scholastic epicenter.
 
Yeah, but who cared what the general thought? Antiochus had banned Judaism in the Roman Empire.
 
S.A.M. said:
Yeah, but who cared what the general thought? Antiochus had banned Judaism in the Roman Empire.
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The point is that the general didn't sack the city ever. Since the city was full of all scholars they all had the capability to flee and time to do so with their books. The banning on books has never been successful in any instance in history. Germany did it, Russia did it, Spain, France...pretty much everyone has. But it never works.
 
Hmm but they did lose all their genealogical records. So there is no evidence that the Jews today are descended from the Jews of Israel

And no way of knowing if the Torah today is the one they followed
 
S.A.M. said:
Hmm but they did lose all their genealogical records. So there is no evidence that the Jews today are descended from the Jews of Israel
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I don't doubt it. Jerusalem can be translated many different ways, one of those is "Arrows of Payment". Which means that all of the judicious taxation work was done by Jerusalem...so it's very likely that they maintained all of that kind of information.
 
SAM said:
Abortion and euthanasia is not murder?
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Nope.

SAM said:
Hmm but they did lose all their genealogical records. So there is no evidence that the Jews today are descended from the Jews of Israel

And no way of knowing if the Torah today is the one they followed
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Joke?
 
CheskiChips said:
The OT for Christians was Canonized with the NT, but for Jews it was canonized long before.

According to Jewish calendars it actually happened slightly be for 0 AD, if I recall correctly.
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There is no 0 (Zero) AD. Typo? (Why won't that show up as Zero rather than the letter O???)
1111
 
CheskiChips said:
Medicine Woman, I may have inadvertently said that or you appended the actual name. But I've never heard of Pandira.
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M*W: I don't remember now who said it, but I have read it many times as having been in the Jewish text. In fact, it's been discussed on this forum in the past. That is a big discrepancy between the Jewish text and the NT. Just curious if you have any other info on this. This one statement in the Jewish text discredits the entire NT.
 
StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
There is no 0 (Zero) AD. Typo? (Why won't that show up as Zero rather than the letter O???)
1111
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Way to make something out of nothing.

Medicine Woman, I did some digging...but there's no definitive answers to whether or not he's in the Talmud at all. I found a site that's useful for this...so I am not going to type it or copy it here. It generally doesn't talk about the genealogies of people it doesn't like...unless it's of some weird relevance. So if it did discuss him, it's unlikely to have his genealogy, and inherently know way of verifying the claim.

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html

You're speaking specifically of 'Talmud Shabbat 104b, Sanhedrin 67a '


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More specifically...
"Ben" in Hebrew just means "of" as in Yeshu ben Pandira meaning "Yesh son of Pandira"
Yeshu Ben Pandira
Passage 2
Lived appr. 80 BCE
Student of R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah
Escaped persecution by fleeing to Egypt and, upon return, became an idolater
Passage 4
Executed on the day before Passover
Had close contact with government officials
Passage 5
Had five disciples who were also executed.
Passage 6
His legacy remained for centuries, even until the time of R. Yishmael (died 133)
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Reasons this is of relevance. The day before Passover doesn't align with Judaism. But the Christian passover is Easter if I remember, and thus he would have died the day before Easter equivalently. His 5 disciples would have been...Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Judas. However the Hebrew names would have been Matai (Matt), Nekai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah. The other 4 don't have English equivalents as far as I know.

Yeshu is "Joshua" and modern Christians 'properly' call him Yoshua also "Joshua". His arguments with government officials coincides with his stories, and his legacy remained until 133 in Jewish lore. Paul who became Psaul after his conversion in Damascus (North of Israel in Syria) had been born 65 years before that and supposedly saw Yeshu in a dream.

If Jewish dating is correct, 133 for Jews would have actually been 250 for the Christians. Meaning Paul would have seen it in around 150, which is 230 years or so after Yeshu lived.
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Ben Stada
Passage 1
Lived appr. 100 CE
Sometimes called Ben Pandira but mainly Ben Stada, possibly to differentiate him from Yeshu Ben Pandira
Brought witchcraft from Egypt
Mother was Miriam the hairdresser, also known as Stada
Father was Pandira
Step-father was Pappos Ben Yehudah
Passage 3
Executed on the day before Passover in Lud for idolatry
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