Would a Plan annul God’s & our free will?

[Greatest I am]

Would a Plan annul God’s & our free will?

If God has this great plan, that we and he cannot deviate from, then none of us, including God, have free will.
If we can deviate from it then we can say that we, including God, have free will.

To believe in the plan is to believe, as I do, that all is perfect at any given point in time.
Most do not follow my thinking on this because they do not understand the perfection of the reality we live in.

Most believe we live under imperfect condition.
If things are not perfect right now, then it would mean that we are off the plan.
Imperfection within the perfect plan.

Is that even possible in your thinking?

How do you resolve this catch 22 paradox?

Regards
DL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk41Gbjljfo

The weird yet perfect plan.
Satan, a surprise to God.
Losing 1/3 of angels.
Eden, the fall.
Exodus, harden Pharaoh’s heart.
Repent of creating man.
Use genocide on man.
Having his son murdered.
End time, another genocide.
Having more souls in hell than heaven.
Begin as master of all. End as a back sliding master of just some.
All these failures for God in his perfect plan?

 

[lightgigantic]

Would a Plan annul God’s & our free will?

If God has this great plan, that we and he cannot deviate from, then none of us, including God, have free will.
If we can deviate from it then we can say that we, including God, have free will.

To believe in the plan is to believe, as I do, that all is perfect at any given point in time.
Most do not follow my thinking on this because they do not understand the perfection of the reality we live in.

Most believe we live under imperfect condition.
If things are not perfect right now, then it would mean that we are off the plan.
Imperfection within the perfect plan.

Is that even possible in your thinking?

How do you resolve this catch 22 paradox?

Regards
DL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk41Gbjljfo

The weird yet perfect plan.
Satan, a surprise to God.
Losing 1/3 of angels.
Eden, the fall.
Exodus, harden Pharaoh’s heart.
Repent of creating man.
Use genocide on man.
Having his son murdered.
End time, another genocide.
Having more souls in hell than heaven.
Begin as master of all. End as a back sliding master of just some.
All these failures for God in his perfect plan?

Its kind of like if you plan to take your kid to the park - everyone's free will is in tact

 

[Greatest I am]

Except I can't change my mind and the kids have no say if they want to do something else. There goes the free will.

Paradoxes are not resolved so easily as your scenario indicates.

Regards
DL

 

[786]

So you're trying to solve Paradoxes? In other words you're assuming its not a paradox but you're calling it one? If you can 'solve' a 'paradox' then its not a paradox, just fyi.

Peace be unto you

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Would a Plan annul God’s & our free will?

If God has this great plan, that we and he cannot deviate from, then none of us, including God, have free will.
If we can deviate from it then we can say that we, including God, have free will.

To believe in the plan is to believe, as I do, that all is perfect at any given point in time.
Most do not follow my thinking on this because they do not understand the perfection of the reality we live in.

Most believe we live under imperfect condition.
If things are not perfect right now, then it would mean that we are off the plan.
Imperfection within the perfect plan.

Is that even possible in your thinking?

How do you resolve this catch 22 paradox?

Regards
DL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk41Gbjljfo

The weird yet perfect plan.
Satan, a surprise to God.
Losing 1/3 of angels.
Eden, the fall.
Exodus, harden Pharaoh’s heart.
Repent of creating man.
Use genocide on man.
Having his son murdered.
End time, another genocide.
Having more souls in hell than heaven.
Begin as master of all. End as a back sliding master of just some.
All these failures for God in his perfect plan?

There is no free will. Free will is an illusion . Everything moves by cause and effect and the cause is from the beginning and the effect we live in is its perfect way. The complexity is what gives the illusion there is free will. By not being able to find the root cause also makes you feel there is randomness , but as science uncovers more and more of what we think is mystery the more we realize there is cause and effect. God didn't murder Jesus either , Jesus committed suicide. It is called martyrdom ( Did I say that right? ) but it was embedded into language for him to do it. He read the old testament and blam! he was caught up in the lack of his own free will . Now you wonder " Well if he didn't read the old testament then he could have done something else. I say no he couldn't do that for the customs of the day there is no way he could brake free of learned behavior of the times. Just like you in your day of now. Look at your one track mind at work right hear and now. Well someone might say Me-Ki-Gal is braking free but not so for I also follow the predicted path of my own existence. Megalomaniac . It is the M.G. in my real name . Can't help it. I call it rudiments of your childhood and you suffer the same fate whether you believe it or not.

 

[Greatest I am]

So you're trying to solve Paradoxes? In other words you're assuming its not a paradox but you're calling it one?

Rather ass backwards friend.
I am calling it a paradox period and do not assume anywhere that it is not one.

If you can 'solve' a 'paradox' then its not a paradox, just fyi.

Peace be unto you

Exactly and that is why I am asking theists how they solve it because I think it is impossible to solve.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

There is no free will. Free will is an illusion . Everything moves by cause and effect and the cause is from the beginning and the effect we live in is its perfect way. The complexity is what gives the illusion there is free will. By not being able to find the root cause also makes you feel there is randomness , but as science uncovers more and more of what we think is mystery the more we realize there is cause and effect. God didn't murder Jesus either , Jesus committed suicide. It is called martyrdom ( Did I say that right? ) but it was embedded into language for him to do it. He read the old testament and blam! he was caught up in the lack of his own free will . Now you wonder " Well if he didn't read the old testament then he could have done something else. I say no he couldn't do that for the customs of the day there is no way he could brake free of learned behavior of the times. Just like you in your day of now. Look at your one track mind at work right hear and now. Well someone might say Me-Ki-Gal is braking free but not so for I also follow the predicted path of my own existence. Megalomaniac . It is the M.G. in my real name . Can't help it. I call it rudiments of your childhood and you suffer the same fate whether you believe it or not.

I agree that we are part of the evolving perfection that I am surprised that you see. I have often called us God WIP's or evolving perfection.

As to the rest of you beliefs in Jesus. As more of a Gnostic Christian than anything else, I cannot agree. Archetypal Jesus is a myth and we do not even know if some old Rabbi was named such. Remember that Constantine basically forced the trinity concept down Christian throat in 360. Jesus the divine is a human wish and nothing more. IMO.

Are you familiar with Candide. It speaks to the evolving perfection we both seem to believe in?


Regards
DL

 

[lightgigantic]

Except I can't change my mind and the kids have no say if they want to do something else. There goes the free will.

Paradoxes are not resolved so easily as your scenario indicates.

Regards
DL

So factor in the changes - at the end of the day, regardless what the kids want to do, its the parents who facilitate it - all within certain parameters of course - such as the behavior of the kids, the suitability of what they want to do, etc ... and even after it all if the kids are hell bent to do something outrageous like rider a motorcycle down mount everest, they still keep that free will with them, even if its not practically doable for them
:shrug:

 

[Lori_7]

Except I can't change my mind

explain this. minds change constantly. it doesn't even require new information, you can just do it arbitrarily. all you need is a choice.

in regards to your paradox, the key to any successful relationship, or any communal existence given free will, is agreement.

 

[Lori_7]

I agree that we are part of the evolving perfection that I am surprised that you see. I have often called us God WIP's or evolving perfection.

As to the rest of you beliefs in Jesus. As more of a Gnostic Christian than anything else, I cannot agree. Archetypal Jesus is a myth and we do not even know if some old Rabbi was named such. Remember that Constantine basically forced the trinity concept down Christian throat in 360. Jesus the divine is a human wish and nothing more. IMO.

Are you familiar with Candide. It speaks to the evolving perfection we both seem to believe in?


Regards
DL

so you believe in a plan, and the plan is evolving perfection. i agree with this. it surprises me though, that you don't see how jesus fits into the plan. jesus was a genetically perfect human, free from the defects that cause us all to suffer. jesus is the human manifestation of the law (god, the father). that's why the ceremonial communion involves ingesting symbols of his blood and body, symbolic of taking his flesh unto our flesh. the relationship between christ and his church is referred to as a marriage because in the bible, marriage is defined as two becoming one in the flesh. christ's kingdom is the next phase of my evolution, and that's a choice.

 

[Greatest I am]

explain this. minds change constantly. it doesn't even require new information, you can just do it arbitrarily. all you need is a choice.

in regards to your paradox, the key to any successful relationship, or any communal existence given free will, is agreement.

If God changes his mind constantly then there can be no plan right?

As to the free will God seems to give, agreement does not enter into it as a free choice if --agree with me or burn forever is that choice. That is not free choice. it is coercion and a threat.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

so you believe in a plan, and the plan is evolving perfection. i agree with this. it surprises me though, that you don't see how jesus fits into the plan. jesus was a genetically perfect human, free from the defects that cause us all to suffer. jesus is the human manifestation of the law (god, the father). that's why the ceremonial communion involves ingesting symbols of his blood and body, symbolic of taking his flesh unto our flesh. the relationship between christ and his church is referred to as a marriage because in the bible, marriage is defined as two becoming one in the flesh. christ's kingdom is the next phase of my evolution, and that's a choice.

To believe in your real Jesus instead of the mythical person that he is, I would have to believe that God is a sinner who sins by coveting another man's woman and breaking his own commandment.

He does like to do that since we know that Jesus is what, the 6th or 7th man born of a virgin.
God sure likes to screw with our women.
Watch yourself.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

So factor in the changes - at the end of the day, regardless what the kids want to do, its the parents who facilitate it - all within certain parameters of course - such as the behavior of the kids, the suitability of what they want to do, etc ... and even after it all if the kids are hell bent to do something outrageous like rider a motorcycle down mount everest, they still keep that free will with them, even if its not practically doable for them
:shrug:

If we are to keep our free will regardless, what of the president God set at Sodom and in Noah's day?

Regards
DL

 

[Lori_7]

To believe in your real Jesus instead of the mythical person that he is, I would have to believe that God is a sinner who sins by coveting another man's woman and breaking his own commandment.

He does like to do that since we know that Jesus is what, the 6th or 7th man born of a virgin.
God sure likes to screw with our women.
Watch yourself.

Regards
DL

"our women"? that statement is indicative of a covetous mentality, followed with, of course, patronizing rhetoric.

are you claiming that coveting is implicit in relationships that result in pregnancy?

that's not true.

 

[scifes]

god makes the plans so that's his free will.
we don't know god's plan so we follow it in our own free will.
if we decide to go out of god's plan we can't because we don't know it.
if we assume god's plan and go against it our assumption was god's plan all along.
no paradox.
fail.
this has been repeated.

 

[dbnp48]

He does like to do that since we know that Jesus is what, the 6th or 7th man born of a virgin.
DL

Give more details. Cite something.

 

[NMSquirrel]

If God has this great plan, that we and he cannot deviate from, then none of us, including God, have free will.
If we can deviate from it then we can say that we, including God, have free will.

this answer remind me of the conversation i had about random..
we only call it random when it gets to complex to calculate..
what if gods 'plan' includes free will..

it also assumes a complexity..what if his plan is so simple,we would have to try really hard to 'deviate' from it...i highlight 'deviate' as that term also implies those deviations are not assumed.
and the whole statement infers a one size fits all 'plan'..

To believe in the plan is to believe, as I do,

way to generic a statement..

that all is perfect at any given point in time.

perfect is subjective.

Most do not follow my thinking on this because they do not understand the perfection of the reality we live in.

we are perfectly screwed up..

Most believe we live under imperfect condition.

that is required to advance as a civilization..

If things are not perfect right now, then it would mean that we are off the plan.

not necessarily..
see your own comment..

Most do not follow my thinking on this because they do not understand the perfection of the reality we live in.

and..
it also assumes imperfection is not part of his 'plan'..

Imperfection within the perfect plan.

Imperfection Included within the perfect plan..
(i can't stress enough, (I believe) that it is NOT a one size fits all 'plan')

Is that even possible in your thinking?

all things are possible..not all things are permissible..

The weird yet perfect plan.
Satan, a surprise to God.

where did you get it was a surprise?

Losing 1/3 of angels.
Eden, the fall.
Exodus, harden Pharaoh’s heart.

1/3?
'fall' assumes it was a bad thing..

Repent of creating man.

what?

Use genocide on man.

so generic..

Having his son murdered.

our perspective..not his..

End time, another genocide.

what makes you think the end times is caused by god?
give a man enough rope and he will hang himself..

Having more souls in hell than heaven.
Begin as master of all. End as a back sliding master of just some.

again..perspective..

All these failures for God in his perfect plan?

To believe in the plan is to believe, as I do,
that all is perfect at any given point in time.

?

 

[Greatest I am]

"our women"? that statement is indicative of a covetous mentality, followed with, of course, patronizing rhetoric.

are you claiming that coveting is implicit in relationships that result in pregnancy?

that's not true.

Are you saying God did not even want her and just used her.

Now that is cold. can God even get it up without desire for a woman.

Wow, that is working in a mysterious way. Seven times too.

Steroids.

Regards
DL

P S. I apologize. I have this thing about abusing fools that comes over me when I am around one. Please don't tell your water walker on me. I am trying to cure myself and suffer fools better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3bksUSPB4c

 

[Greatest I am]

god makes the plans so that's his free will.
we don't know god's plan so we follow it in our own free will.
if we decide to go out of god's plan we can't because we don't know it.
if we assume god's plan and go against it our assumption was god's plan all along.
no paradox.
fail.
this has been repeated.

Perhaps. That would just make us puppets in God great puppet show. Do you really see God sitting there whiting in every time we are going to shit or screw? Is it even moral for God to sit back and allow some poor girl to get raped or some child to be murdered? I think not and any court of the land would also find him guilty of collusion or guilty of omiting to move his sorry ass and prevent it. Yuck, what a view you have of god. Are you following that immoral idiot?

Further, what of Gods free will in that show. What if he decided not to be so foolish as to sacrifice his son and do the smart and loving thing of just forgiving man outright without demanding that we murder his son?

Is He stuck to do the immoral thing?

Theist think the plan fixed. God himself cannot change it. No free will for God.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Give more details. Cite something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5v42jtet5c

If you want more, just Google virgin birth.
The custom was old by the time Christianity plagiarized their book of myths.
All the Bible is is a consolidation of many other faiths of the day. St Peters is built on top of a Mythra temple. that was the trend in the day when some new religion beat out an older one.

Regards
DL