"Dont want to be an American Idiot!"

[Anarcho Union]

The reason I posted this thread is purely because I was talking/debateing with someone today who made the all ignorent "Green Day is anti-American" claim today. They also tried to tell me the 2004 song/album American Idiot is adressed to former President Bush.
I want to explain what the song is truely about.

"Don't want to be an American idiot.
Don't want a nation under the new media
And can you hear the sound of hysteria?
The subliminal mind fuck America."

Its clear that this part is about the media, as much of the song is. The phrase "American Idiot" is not calling America itself an idiot, but rather the arrogent idiots so intertwined in Americans pop-culture. Its speaking out against the current American dream and pop-reference to what the average American is supposed and expected to be like.

"Welcome to a new kind of tension.
All across the alien nation.
Where everything isn't meant to be okay.
Television dreams of tomorrow.
We're not the ones who're meant to follow.
For that's enough to argue."

Again, strongly speaking against the media. Showing also Billie Joes great hate for conformity and nationality in America.

"Well maybe I'm the faggot America.
I'm not a part of a redneck agenda.
Now everybody do the propaganda.
And sing along to the age of paranoia."

Again, anti-media and conformity not anti-American.

"Welcome to a new kind of tension.
All across the alien nation.
Where everything isn't meant to be okay.
Television dreams of tomorrow.
We're not the ones who're meant to follow.
For that's enough to argue."

"Don't want to be an American idiot.
One nation controlled by the media.
Information age of hysteria.
It's calling out to idiot America."

"Welcome to a new kind of tension.
All across the alien nation.
Where everything isn't meant to be okay.
Television dreams of tomorrow.
We're not the ones who're meant to follow.
For that's enough to argue."

Point and case. This song and the album is not anti-American. Its anti-stupidity if anything.

 

[spidergoat]

Obviously, as is anyone who was critical of Bush.

 

[Anarcho Union]

Obviously, as is anyone who was critical of Bush.

What? Your sentence didnt even make sense.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

This song and the album is not anti-American. Its anti-stupidity if anything.

The song is anti-American idiots. Anyone who takes offense must be one. I had to learn that song and I never found anything in it that seemed to be focused specifically on Backward Baby Bush... any more than on any other American idiot, anyway.

A lot of people who only heard the hits on the radio ("American Idiot," "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" and "When September Comes") and haven't listened to the album all the way through don't realize that it's a concept album. This artform was much more common in the 1970s, when people:

• 1. Had longer attention spans and
• 2. Listened to music instead of just dancing to it.

I confess I haven't played the whole album from start to finish enough times to write a thesis on what its concept is, but it certainly pertains to America and idiocy, as well as a very heavy theme of loss, alienation and sorrow.

There's certainly plenty of loss, alienation and sorrow in today's music. "In the End" by Linkin Park was the anthem of an entire high school graduating class, and the PCD's "Don'cha" has been called "the funeral march for erotic love."

But that's okay, I've surely played "Dark Side of the Moon" a couple of hundred times and I couldn't quite tell you what that concept is, either. There's no reason rock and roll can't communicate like a symphony, with the theme being expressed in the music as much or more than the lyrics.

Not every concept album has to hit you over the head like "Aqualung."

 

[clusteringflux]

Funny thing, Greenday bitching about "pop" music and "american idiots". They should be thanking their stars
I mean where else can you get rich by inventing the psuedo-punk ballad. Yes, I'm sure Greenday has do deal with more than it's share of idiots. I'm not sure who else would go see them.

 

[Anarcho Union]

The song is anti-American idiots. Anyone who takes offense must be one. I had to learn that song and I never found anything in it that seemed to be focused specifically on Backward Baby Bush... any more than on any other American idiot, anyway.

A lot of people who only heard the hits on the radio ("American Idiot," "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" and "When September Comes") and haven't listened to the album all the way through don't realize that it's a concept album. This artform was much more common in the 1970s, when people:

• 1. Had longer attention spans and
• 2. Listened to music instead of just dancing to it.

I confess I haven't played the whole album from start to finish enough times to write a thesis on what its concept is, but it certainly pertains to America and idiocy, as well as a very heavy theme of loss, alienation and sorrow.

There's certainly plenty of loss, alienation and sorrow in today's music. "In the End" by Linkin Park was the anthem of an entire high school graduating class, and the PCD's "Don'cha" has been called "the funeral march for erotic love."

But that's okay, I've surely played "Dark Side of the Moon" a couple of hundred times and I couldn't quite tell you what that concept is, either. There's no reason rock and roll can't communicate like a symphony, with the theme being expressed in the music as much or more than the lyrics.

Not every concept album has to hit you over the head like "Aqualung."

You, good sir or maddam, has impressed me. I want to see American Idiot on brodway. I've been waiting for the story of St.Jimmy and Whatsername to hit the stage

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

You, good sir or madam, has impressed me.

I am male.

I want to see American Idiot on brodway. I've been waiting for the story of St.Jimmy and Whatsername to hit the stage

I'm looking forward to that too. A musical with good music, what a concept! Andrew Lloyd Weber's stuff just leaves me yawning. I'd rather watch "The Music Man," "West Side Story," "Yellow Submarine" or "Tommy" for the 101st time.

 

[John99]

Funny thing, Greenday bitching about "pop" music and "american idiots". They should be thanking their stars
I mean where else can you get rich by inventing the psuedo-punk ballad. Yes, I'm sure Greenday has do deal with more than it's share of idiots. I'm not sure who else would go see them.

So they are referring to their fans, themselves, a philosophical microcosm of the entire planet.

 

[Omega133]

"The Music Man,"

Hey, what a coincidence. My school just preformed it. (I was on the technical crew ) It's a good play.

 

[quadraphonics]

A lot of people who only heard the hits on the radio ("American Idiot," "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" and "When September Comes") and haven't listened to the album all the way through don't realize that it's a concept album. This artform was much more common in the 1970s, when people:

• 1. Had longer attention spans and
• 2. Listened to music instead of just dancing to it.

I think that phenomenon has more to do with changes in media structure than audience attributes. I.e., starting in the early 1980's you have MTV and the predominance of the music video, which has been hailed by many as the death knell of the full album. Soon enough, music producers stopped expending effort on the "filler" tracks on albums and instead focussed exclusively on singles, and soon enough after that people lost interest in hearing the albums. By now you have people buying lots of music from iTunes (or just listening to radio, by air or by internet) and the whole concept of an album is largely an anachronism as far as pop music is concerned. By the time iTunes store came out, the fact that you could purchase hits without having to get the filler tracks was touted as a major feature (as if the single had never existed, or the fact of shitty filler tracks wasn't the real problem to begin with).

But go check out some genres that aren't oriented towards radio play, and the situation is vastly different. In addition to fusty adult stuff like classical and jazz, heavy metal has never lost any of its devotion to the ideal of entire albums full of solid material, often built around unified concepts or themes. Not that such is always achieved, but at least people still strive for that.

I confess I haven't played the whole album from start to finish enough times to write a thesis on what its concept is, but it certainly pertains to America and idiocy, as well as a very heavy theme of loss, alienation and sorrow.

Which is to say, indistinguishable from every other would-be punk album ever produced (well, except for the ones that are more about Britain than America). I'm not a Green Day hater, but they're over a decade past their prime and never really had anything new to offer beyond bringing a strong pop sensibility to punk rock (and thereby removing the last shreds of doubt as to whether punk is truly dead). It's good that they're the only survivors the pop punk movement - they're the only ones that deserve such - and are settling into a new status as elder rock statesmen.

But the surge of recent mainstream interest in Green Day (particularly amongst middle-aged and older people with no other affinity for such things) is a day late and a buck short. It's depresses me when my parents' friends try to strike up conversations with me about how hip they are to Green Day, and doubly so when I see the blank expressions on their faces after I tell them I haven't listened to any Green Day since Dookie.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Hey, what a coincidence. My school just preformed it. (I was on the technical crew ) It's a good play.

There's some real social commentary about the Baby Boomers in it. Musicologists point out that every generation has its march. Sometimes it's got a religious theme like "Onward Christian Soldiers," but usually it has something to do with a real or mythical battle. The march of the Baby Boomers (I was born three years too early to be one of them but I'll be damned if I was going to hang with the older kids who were listening to Sinatra instead of Elvis) was "76 Trombones" from "The Music Man." It's a march about having fun and making music!

Actually those slightly older Depression Babies chose "The Colonel Bogie March" from "The Bridge on the River Kwai," which was just as unusual in its own way for having no lyrics and just being whistled. They loved to play it on their hot-rod horns. (Yes, British friends, I know it actually does have lyrics--something about Hitler's genitalia if I understand correctly--but we never knew that over here.)

But go check out some genres that aren't oriented towards radio play, and the situation is vastly different. In addition to fusty adult stuff like classical and jazz, heavy metal has never lost any of its devotion to the ideal of entire albums full of solid material, often built around unified concepts or themes. Not that such is always achieved, but at least people still strive for that.

Dream Theater's "Scenes from a Memory" is one of my favorites of the recent era. It's as solid a concept album as Queensryche's "Operation Mindcrime" or Metallica's "And Justice for All" (we saw both of those bands do both of those albums live in the same concert--a night to remember), and waaaaay richer in its dynamics.

I know Dream Theater is often classified as heavy metal and they're happy to oblige. They headlined the metalhead festival in Maryland a couple of years ago and did a whole set of headbanging tunes. But their talent goes far beyond that pigeonhole. Like the Mars Volta.

It depresses me when my parents' friends try to strike up conversations with me about how hip they are to Green Day, and doubly so when I see the blank expressions on their faces after I tell them I haven't listened to any Green Day since Dookie.

I'm sure I'm old enough to be your parents' parents and I have to admit that (as far as I know) I've never heard any of Green Day's early stuff. Was it ever on the radio or did you have to go to a club to hear it?

I was already too old for punk when it came out. I'm a musician and I can't appreciate hearing people perform who can't play any better than I did when I was fifteen. Although I insist that some of the bands that got lumped in that genre like Television, Talking Heads, the Clash--and most especially the "High Priestess of Punk," Patti Smith--were getting a bum rap. They all played better than I do now, and they really understood music.

 

[quadraphonics]

I know Dream Theater is often classified as heavy metal and they're happy to oblige.

It seems to be as much that Dream Theater is popular amongst metal fans, than that Dream Theater is actually metal. But whatever...

I'm sure I'm old enough to be your parents' parents and I have to admit that (as far as I know) I've never heard any of Green Day's early stuff. Was it ever on the radio or did you have to go to a club to hear it?

It was on heavy rotation on MTV and the radio in the mid-90's. Dookie sold over 10 million discs, won a Grammy, etc. Frankly I don't understand how anyone could have missed it, which is why I'm so puzzled at this generation of people who have just now discovered them. They play pop music, for chrissakes!

I was already too old for punk when it came out. I'm a musician and I can't appreciate hearing people perform who can't play any better than I did when I was fifteen. Although I insist that some of the bands that got lumped in that genre like Television, Talking Heads, the Clash--and most especially the "High Priestess of Punk," Patti Smith--were getting a bum rap. They all played better than I do now, and they really understood music.

Talking Heads was considered punk? I'd always thought of them as squarely new-wave. But then punk was one of those designations that sort of took on a life of its own, especially outside of the immediate scene and critics, and the distinction between it and new wave was probably never well-formed in the mind of the general public. Or maybe some of these issues only became clear in hindsight, once new-wave and other post-punk scenes had developed sufficiently distinct identities.

 

[madanthonywayne]

.
A lot of people who only heard the hits on the radio ("American Idiot," "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" and "When September Comes") and haven't listened to the album all the way through don't realize that it's a concept album. This artform was much more common in the 1970s, when people:

• 1. Had longer attention spans and
• 2. Listened to music instead of just dancing to it.

It's more than that. You need to listen to the entire album to pick up on the fact that it's a "concept album". Yet most kids these days download songs and rarely, if ever, buy complete albums.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

It seems to be as much that Dream Theater is popular amongst metal fans, than that Dream Theater is actually metal. But whatever.

Believe me, that set (subset?) they put together for the metal-head audience was solid metal. They're just bigger than that. They use metal as a motif just like all their other motives.

It was on heavy rotation on MTV and the radio in the mid-90's. Dookie sold over 10 million discs, won a Grammy, etc.

I knew about the album's popularity, I just couldn't identify it. I was a traveling consultant then so I wasn't watching MTV. And many radio stations had already gotten in the habit of not always announcing titles and artists. I probably heard them and just didn't know who it was.

Frankly I don't understand how anyone could have missed it, which is why I'm so puzzled at this generation of people who have just now discovered them. They play pop music, for chrissakes!

Every sub-genre of rock and roll (or any other style of music) eventually runs out of steam and gets assimilated back into its mainstream. The first rock songs, from the days before the genre became fragmented, sounded pretty raw by the 1970s, when bands like the Strawbs, Yes, Genesis and Gentle Giant were hybridizing it with chamber music and Frank Zappa was collaborating with Pierre Boulez. The punks tried to recapture that raw sound by playing like garage bands, and the rappers tried to do it by dumping 2/3 of the definition of music (melody and harmony), going back to the Stone Age and chanting over percussion (rhythm is the other 1/3 and lyrics aren't essential to music).

Talking Heads was considered punk? I'd always thought of them as squarely new-wave.

Oh yeah. Forget that you've heard their later work and try to hear "Psycho Killer" through the ears of a Rush fan in 1978. The music was a little too polished, but then so was Patti Smith's. And Tom Verlaine was a guitar genius.

But then punk was one of those designations that sort of took on a life of its own, especially outside of the immediate scene and critics, and the distinction between it and new wave was probably never well-formed in the mind of the general public.

I remember a Dick Tracy strip when his "crimestopping" took him into the music scene. He asked one of the promoters what was the difference between Punk and New Wave, and she answered, "The New Wave Musicians can actually play their instruments."

Or maybe some of these issues only became clear in hindsight, once new-wave and other post-punk scenes had developed sufficiently distinct identities.

New Wave quickly morphed into Techno-Funk, in the early days of MTV. There was a slogan going around: "You can call it New Wave, you can call it Techno-Funk, you can call it the Yuppie Two-Step or the Aerobic Shuffle. But it's still Disco and it still sucks!"

 

[quadraphonics]

Every sub-genre of rock and roll (or any other style of music) eventually runs out of steam and gets assimilated back into its mainstream.

Tell that to death metal. Personally I think there's a barrier presented by albums full of cookie monster screaming about sexualized cannibalism that will resist mainstreamization (indeed, I've long thought that such was exactly the point of the subject matter and album covers). Death metal is only a few years younger than new wave, so if there's a reassimilation going on, it's on a substantially longer time scale than was the case for punk rock or the various more recent genres (grunge, for example, only held out a handful of years before becoming synonymous with the mainstream).

I remember a Dick Tracy strip when his "crimestopping" took him into the music scene. He asked one of the promoters what was the difference between Punk and New Wave, and she answered, "The New Wave Musicians can actually play their instruments."

I swear I've heard that anecdote somewhere before... There's also the famous poster called "How to Play Punk Rock" that consists of a single chord diagram.

New Wave quickly morphed into Techno-Funk, in the early days of MTV. There was a slogan going around: "You can call it New Wave, you can call it Techno-Funk, you can call it the Yuppie Two-Step or the Aerobic Shuffle. But it's still Disco and it still sucks!"

There's something to that. Not that it's literally disco, but it seems motivated by a counterforce to punk's rejection of disco. Personally I'm kind of glad I was too young to concern myself with such things back in the early 1980's...

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Tell that to death metal.

You need to listen to the CD "Freaks of Nature" by the Swedish all-girl band Drain STH. Tony Iommi's wife is in it and he collaborated on some of the writing.

"Wraith is glowing now, through my sunken eyes.
Pain is growing, I'm jaded from your lies.
I don't know why, but it's the best way to die."

And then there's the one about the leeches...

grunge, for example, only held out a handful of years before becoming synonymous with the mainstream

Now we have Grunge Lite: Creed, Nickelback, etc.

There's also the famous poster called "How to Play Punk Rock" that consists of a single chord diagram.

No that's not fair. They know all three chords. In one key anyway.

There's something to that. Not that it's literally disco, but it seems motivated by a counterforce to punk's rejection of disco.

People very much wanted to dance. The era of people sitting attentively, just listening, and then discussing the artform articulately for weeks afterward, ended when the Religious Redneck Retard Revival shut down America's intellectual revolution.

 

[Trippy]

But that's okay, I've surely played "Dark Side of the Moon" a couple of hundred times and I couldn't quite tell you what that concept is, either. There's no reason rock and roll can't communicate like a symphony, with the theme being expressed in the music as much or more than the lyrics.

Not every concept album has to hit you over the head like "Aqualung."

The Final Cut, on the other hand, is fairly straight forward (fairly straightforward here being a very relative term).

 

[Trippy]

So, I reminded myself why I don't listen to the album that often - Generally speaking I don't like the lead singers voice, something about it reminds me of fingernails on blackboards. Something about his tonality reminds me of 'Whiney wannabe angsty teen'.

Having said that, something about 'Holiday' left me thinking about some of the reactions to the Dixie Chicks.

 

[nietzschefan]

Not every concept album has to hit you over the head like "Aqualung."

AKKk why'd you drop that bomb at the end? 3 songs is not a concept album. Yes "aqualung" the modern Diogenes of London is in the three songs, but the rest of the album is different...and no , it's not ALL against religion.

 

[Cowboy]

According to the guys in Green Day, it IS about Bush:

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/story/green-day.s-george-bush-opera