SETI: Run by charlatans or fools?

Some of the Sponsorship SETI currently receives:

Sponsorship

Institute projects have been sponsored by:

NASA Ames Research Center
NASA Headquarters
National Science Foundation
Department of Energy
US Geological Survey
Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL)
International Astronomical Union
Argonne National Laboratory
Alfred P. Sloan Foundation
David & Lucile Packard Foundation
Paul G. Allen Foundation
Gordon and Betty Moore
Universities Space Research Association (USRA)
Pacific Science Center
Foundation for Microbiology
Sun Microsystems
Hewlett Packard Company
William and Rosemary Hewlett
Bernard M. Oliver
And many others


https://www.teamseti.org/donate

As mentioned the main benefits of SETI are more philosophical then practical at this time.......Are we alone??? Our place in the Universe?? As it is with other Astronomical programs, it is rather shallow to be looking at short term gains, or the favourite rally cry of the pessimist, about economics.
While Kepler and other probes can find Earth like planets in comfy zones, their distances do not reveal if ETI does exist there...We need them to shout at us and those shouts are possibly then picked up by SETI.

It is also quite obvious to most [not all sadly] that SETI has in many ways advanced computer power and such disciplines connected with computers and such.

There are also procedures that astronomers would instigate to make known any potential ETI revelation. They would of course obtain confirmation of the signal from other astronomers, simarilly as was undertaken in the movie "CONTACT"
I'm sure there would be nothing to gain for individual radio astronomers to even attempt to conspire to keep the find from the public.
 
SETI research is also carried out in other countries and Australia is one of those. The grand Parkes Radio Telescope, which I happened to visit around 6 months ago, regularly undertakes searches for SETI-AUSTRALIA.
 
brucep said:
Come on Id. It was Michael Rennie.
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Oh yeah. I think I've been caught mistaking them before. It must have gotten planted in my mind as a kid, as there is IMO some resemblance between Heston & Rennie. But you piqued my interest, so I ended up watching both versions back to back just for kicks.

They could come back again and Gort the robot could make an example of the tea party wing of the GOP. We could get a first hand look at the ray gun.
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As in Ronald Ray-gun? I wonder if Reagan himself speculated that his Star Wars defense projects could have produced such a weapon as Gort's visor ray. At least it comports with his (the military's) interest in high energy lasers.

You know there's a lot of historical social content to what you said. If you consider the fact the original was made even before the testing at Bimini and Bikini, before McCarthyism and the antidisestablishmentarianism (biggest word of that era) that began to permeate Republicans of the 60s, whoa. Then the environmental goals of Keanu Reeves' character form a 'liberal' link to the anti-nuke goals of Rennie's Klaatu. Both themes run contrary to the right-winger ideology even though 50 years have passed. Of course that just proves that Hollywood screen-writers and directors are all just a bunk of yellow bellied pinko socialist wusses, so go figure. Give this movie to some fundie church as a project, and they'd have Heston in there for sure, parting the Red Sea while Gort vaporizes chariots and sends a plague of metallic nano locusts to work dismantling all of the corrupt world, starting with all of the idols and mammon etc. And no doubt the reanimation of the dead Klaatu would take place on the third day, after a considerable mistreatment at a place like Abu Ghraib. Now there's a movie worth making. Not as screwy as Spaceballs, but more cynical towards stupidity. Something suitable for, say, Michael Moore.

Yeah we need a centrist Gort that will vaporize the Right and leave the Middle & Left to sort out the pickings. That's probably a subliminal fear among fundies as well - that science is on the verge of gaining some of his superpowers, by some ill defined means, and somehow will use it to shut down religion once and for all. But Gort was effective in the theatrical sense - for such minimal devices (the flexible metal body, the visor and ray-gun eye) he conveyed all the power of an impersonal avenging God.

My favorite part is when Klaatu visits the science prof at the local university and easily solves the equation on his board. Kinda like what Leslie Winkle did to Sheldon.
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Oh yeah what better way to illustrate a superior being than to have him mastering what the best minds of contemporary science are puzzled by? Of course the right-wingers in the audience would have immediately picked up on this (scientific expertise is respectable), despite their shallow pretense (I mean modern right-wingers) that it's merely the product of brainwashing and/or a pact with the devil. (Of course that comes from getting their views on science from noticing how much Leslie discredits Sheldon.)
 
pmb said:
So SETI does have some governement funding (NASA, National Science Foundation) but not for the SETI searches?
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yes, i think the funds are more directed at specific science experiments etc than at the actual searches which this thread is mainly about, and to which my answer was aimed.
 
Read-Only: Did you consider the inverse square law?
Sorry, Dino, but I believe you are straining at a gnat. Don't forget that a transmitted signal leaves it's point of origin as an ever-expanding cone. By the time it's traveled 4 LY it would most likely cover the entire solar system of Proxima Centauri,
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The type of signal you are describing would not be noticeable 4 or more light years from its source & certainly not if directed toward more distant solar systems.
 
Dinosaur said:
Read-Only: Did you consider the inverse square law?The type of signal you are describing would not be noticeable 4 or more light years from its source & certainly not if directed toward more distant solar systems.
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Why don't you point that out to SETI if its factual?
The point is, you do not know what you are talking about, full stop.
 
Dinosaur said:
Read-Only: Did you consider the inverse square law?The type of signal you are describing would not be noticeable 4 or more light years from its source & certainly not if directed toward more distant solar systems.
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Get a clue. If that was the case we wouldn't receive any signals [all electromagnetic signals, even light! Duh.] from any source > 4 light years. You probably think the SETI signal looses energy over distance.
 
Aqueous Id said:
Oh yeah. I think I've been caught mistaking them before. It must have gotten planted in my mind as a kid, as there is IMO some resemblance between Heston & Rennie. But you piqued my interest, so I ended up watching both versions back to back just for kicks.


As in Ronald Ray-gun? I wonder if Reagan himself speculated that his Star Wars defense projects could have produced such a weapon as Gort's visor ray. At least it comports with his (the military's) interest in high energy lasers.

You know there's a lot of historical social content to what you said. If you consider the fact the original was made even before the testing at Bimini and Bikini, before McCarthyism and the antidisestablishmentarianism (biggest word of that era) that began to permeate Republicans of the 60s, whoa. Then the environmental goals of Keanu Reeves' character form a 'liberal' link to the anti-nuke goals of Rennie's Klaatu. Both themes run contrary to the right-winger ideology even though 50 years have passed. Of course that just proves that Hollywood screen-writers and directors are all just a bunk of yellow bellied pinko socialist wusses, so go figure. Give this movie to some fundie church as a project, and they'd have Heston in there for sure, parting the Red Sea while Gort vaporizes chariots and sends a plague of metallic nano locusts to work dismantling all of the corrupt world, starting with all of the idols and mammon etc. And no doubt the reanimation of the dead Klaatu would take place on the third day, after a considerable mistreatment at a place like Abu Ghraib. Now there's a movie worth making. Not as screwy as Spaceballs, but more cynical towards stupidity. Something suitable for, say, Michael Moore.

Yeah we need a centrist Gort that will vaporize the Right and leave the Middle & Left to sort out the pickings. That's probably a subliminal fear among fundies as well - that science is on the verge of gaining some of his superpowers, by some ill defined means, and somehow will use it to shut down religion once and for all. But Gort was effective in the theatrical sense - for such minimal devices (the flexible metal body, the visor and ray-gun eye) he conveyed all the power of an impersonal avenging God.


Oh yeah what better way to illustrate a superior being than to have him mastering what the best minds of contemporary science are puzzled by? Of course the right-wingers in the audience would have immediately picked up on this (scientific expertise is respectable), despite their shallow pretense (I mean modern right-wingers) that it's merely the product of brainwashing and/or a pact with the devil. (Of course that comes from getting their views on science from noticing how much Leslie discredits Sheldon.)
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I love reading your posts. You seem to have a 'bead' on everything. I especially enjoy the way you put 'stuff' into historical context. You should write a book. Maybe you have. I can't believe you watched both. Wow.
 
From my Post #50
We are orbiting Sol & they are orbiting Proxima Centauri.

We must predict their exact position at the time the signal gets there.

We must send our signal precisely to that predicted position. Over a distance of circa 4 light years, an extremely small error in direction would result in missing the target.
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The above relates to a signal sent in a precise direction. From a distance of 4 or more light years, a directed signal is likely to miss a planet & would almost certainly miss the SETI receivers, which are much smaller than a planet. Of course, the problem is worse for solar systems more distant than Proxima Centauri.

In Post #129, I quoted the above & added the following remarks.
Nobody posting here seems to realize the seriousness of the problems implied by the above. Perhaps they are ignoring the above because they have either no clue relating to the technological problems or no idea of how to overcome the problems assuming they are aware of those problems.

The problem of signal degradation is serious, but might be overcome with some future technology (hard to imagine how, but maybe).

The far more serious problem is predicting the exact position of an orbiting target circa 4 light years from the transmitter. Even more serious is the problem of directing a signal precisely enough to avoid missing the target 4 light years away.

It seems difficult to avoid missing a planet 4 light years away from the transmitter. The SETI folks are hoping that the transmitters will not miss the SETI receivers, smaller targets than our planet.
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Post # 133 by Read-Only
Sorry, Dino, but I believe you are straining at a gnat. Don't forget that a transmitted signal leaves it's point of origin as an ever-expanding cone. By the time it's traveled 4 LY it would most likely cover the entire solar system of Proxima Centauri.
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To the above, I mentioned the inverse square law applicable to signals which are radiated as an expanding cone. At distances of 4 or more light years, such signals would be too weak to be picked up by receivers.

In post #149, BruceP replied to the above as follows.
Get a clue. If that was the case we wouldn't receive any signals [all electromagnetic signals, even light! Duh.] from any source > 4 light years. You probably think the SETI signal loses energy over distance.
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He seems to have forgotten the difference in energy output between a stellar source & a broadcast from a technological culture. Even if a technological culture could produce signals strong enough to be detectable at interstellar distances, why would they?

Brucep: I hope you understand that the signals SETI is attempting to receive are broadcasts from a technological culture, not stellar radiation.

The above indicates that neither directed nor expanding cone type signals are at all likely to be received by us from sources 4 or more light years distant.

Nothing posted so far has convinced me that the SETI folks are motivated by expectation of success. They are not fools & realize the formidable technological difficulties. They are surely motivated by the desire for funding to provide them with jobs & interesting technological toys to play with. Another motive might be the Publish or Perish syndrome common in academic environments.
 
Dinosaur said:
Nothing posted so far has convinced me that the SETI folks are motivated by expectation of success. They are not fools & realize the formidable technological difficulties. They are surely motivated by the desire for funding to provide them with jobs & interesting technological toys to play with. Another motive might be the Publish or Perish syndrome common in academic environments.
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And I don't expect anything posted by anyone would convince you of its merits and practicability.
One thing you are correct in though...They are motivated by desire...the desire to gain more knowledge of the Universe and our place within. And of course your purposely provocative insulting title, actually says more about yourself then any folk at SETI.
And your empty words and claims will make no difference to the true capabilities of their equipement and their dedication and will and hope to eventually find something.

The following data has been obtained at....
http://www.seti.org/faq#csc3 .....and gives a more realistic picture of SETI, its aims, its capabilities, and the true meaning of why it was initiated and continues to this day.


In terrestrial radio practice, narrow-band signals are often called “carriers.” They pack a lot of energy into a small amount of spectral space, and consequently are the easiest type of signal to find for any given power level. If E.T. intentionally sends us a signal, those signals may well have at least one narrow-band component to get our attention.


If E.T.’s electric bills are high (as on Earth) and his received signals are therefore relatively weak, we may have to build far larger instruments to look for the modulation. Fortunately, once a detection is made, we expect the money will become available to do so.

But even though this information is limited, the detection of alien intelligence will be an enormously big story. We’ll be aware that we’re neither alone nor the smartest things in the universe. And of course there will be a clamor to build the big dishes that would allow us to pick up E.T.’s message.


If the signal is strong enough, it might be detected with ordinary SETI equipment, although weak broadcasts will be missed. Since 2011, the SETI Institute has been expanding its search to discover these other types of communications. Nonetheless, it’s good to keep in mind that any civilization will realize that narrow-band broadcasts are among the most efficient in terms of producing a detectable signal at the receiving end. If they wish to get in touch or, for example, simply have high-powered radars for finding incoming comets, they will generate the type of signals our experiments can find.

To date, the SETI Institute has conducted only passive experiments, designed to listen for signals, not to send them. However, humankind has been unintentionally transmitting signals into space – primarily high-frequency radio, television, and radar – for more than sixty years. Our earliest TV broadcasts have reached several thousand nearby stars, although any alien viewers would have to build a very large antenna to detect them.

Optical SETI programs – which search for very brief (nanosecond) flashes of light – are being conducted at the University of California Berkeley’s Leuschner Observatory (Project SEVENDIP) and at Harvard University.
Because it has the ability to study many areas on the sky at once, and is continually being upgraded with improved receivers and spectral analyzers
 
SETI is operating for all mankind, including the charlatans or fools that deride it, and as the previous post/link indicate, is supported by many orginisations and most scientists.
That just about says it all.
 
To the above, I mentioned the inverse square law applicable to signals which are radiated as an expanding cone. At distances of 4 or more light years, such signals would be too weak to be picked up by receivers.
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i think there is some confusion here. directed signals are not governed by the inverse square law. even though the signal would be cone shaped. the inverse square law applies to non-directed signals that are transmitted in a spherical pattern.

added as errata: a directed signal that was a segment of a cone in pattern would be governed by the inverse square law.

The above relates to a signal sent in a precise direction. From a distance of 4 or more light years, a directed signal is likely to miss a planet & would almost certainly miss the SETI receivers, which are much smaller than a planet. Of course, the problem is worse for solar systems more distant than Proxima Centauri.
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it doesn't need to be directed specifically at us, seeing that "they" probably don't know we are here, but as part of a program that targets various parts of the sky that have, maybe, been chosen because of extrasolar system density, the "right" stars etc. we would purely be in the right place to receive this signal.
 
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As mentioned in my Posts #50 & 129, it is almost impossible for SETI to receive a precisely directed signal from an ET culture. Due to inverse square law degradation, an expanding cone type of signal would not survive to be detected after traveling an interstellar distance. A poster supplied a link to the SETI Site (http://www.seti.org/faq#csc3 )
Over the last half-century, scientists have developed a theory of cosmic evolution that predicts that life is a natural phenomenon likely to develop on planets with suitable environmental conditions. Scientific evidence shows that life arose on Earth relatively quickly (only 100 million years after life was even possible), suggesting that life will occur on any planets that have the requisite characteristics, such as liquid oceans (either on the surface or underground). With the recent discovery that the majority of stars have planets – the number of potential habitats for life has been greatly expanded.

In addition, exploration of our own solar system and analysis of the composition of other systems suggest that the chemical building blocks of life – such as amino acids – are naturally produced and very widespread.

There are several hundred billion other stars in our Galaxy, and more than 100 billion other galaxies in the part of the universe we can see. It would be extraordinary if we were the only thinking beings in all these vast realms.
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I agree with the bolded (by me) part of the above.

The history of the Earth strongly supports the notion that extraterrestrial life not only exists, but is common.

I disagree with the notion that technological cultures are common. I expect many galaxies to have no technological cultures & very few (if any) to have more than one. In various Threads, I posted remarks like the following to support my POV (paraphrases, not actual quotes).
The requirements for a habitable zone decrease the number of places where a technological culture can exist.

A solar system has a habitable zone: Sol, for example, has 9 planets with life known to exist on only one of them.

A galaxy has a habitable zone. Too close to galactic center, radiation & stellar activity are hostile to life, which seems to require a solar system to be stable for billions of years. Too far from galactic center & there are not enough of the heavier elements (carbon, oxygen, iron, et cetera) required by life forms.
​

The dinosaurs existed for over 100 million years. The last of them were not much (if any) more intelligent that the early ones. Intelligence is likely to be a lucky fluke rather than an inevitable result of evolution.

The Neanderthals & Denisovans seemed to be as intelligent as Homo Sapiens, but did not survive.

A primate body plan seems to be necessary, but not sufficient. Only one branch of the primates evolved to produce a technological culture..

An appendage capable of holding tools seems to be required. It would use sticks or stones in the early stage of evolution & make crude tools later.

The environment must provide evolutionary pressure for tool usage. Consider the various octopus species, which seem to have some potential for intelligence. Their tentacles are well suited to catching & holding the prey available to them. They can move in 3 dimensions, allowing them access to potential food sources in the sea.
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As remarked by me in various other Threads, I do not expect SETI to receive a signal from ET & I do not think they expect to. I still think that they are motivated by the desire for funding, allowing them to have jobs & access to interesting technological toys. The academic Publish or Perish syndrome might also be a motive.
 
Dinosaur said:
As mentioned in my Posts #50 & 129, it is almost impossible for SETI to receive a precisely directed signal from an ET culture. Due to inverse square law degradation, an expanding cone type of signal would not survive to be detected after traveling an interstellar distance. A poster supplied a link to the SETI Site (http://www.seti.org/faq#csc3 )I agree with the bolded (by me) part of the above.


.As remarked by me in various other Threads, I do not expect SETI to receive a signal from ET & I do not think they expect to. I still think that they are motivated by the desire for funding, allowing them to have jobs & access to interesting technological toys. The academic Publish or Perish syndrome might also be a motive.
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You've been wrong in the past and wrong again.
The aspersions you cast on reputable people, because they happen to violate what you see as right and proper, says a lot about yourself.It's your own motive that needs to be questioned.

SETI continues because of the innovation and Imagination of a few good scientists, and because they all realise that their chances of contact are real.
As long as there is a chance, they'll continue as they should.
 
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I still think that they are motivated by the desire for funding, allowing them to have jobs & access to interesting technological toys.
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Is it a bad thing for an individual to be motivated in this way to do a job?
Those motivators (having a job, access to interesting technological toys) both feature strongly in my motivation to work in medicine.
And it will often be the case that I perform or prescribe treatment that I do not expect to make a difference for that individual patient (because the patient judges that the small chance of benefit outweighs the costs).

Does that make me a charlatan?
 
Pete said:
Is it a bad thing for an individual to be motivated in this way to do a job?
Those motivators (having a job, access to interesting technological toys) both feature strongly in my motivation to work in medicine.

And it will often be the case that I perform or prescribe treatment that I do not expect to make a difference for that individual patient (because the small chance of benefit outweighs the costs).

Does that make me a charlatan?
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No, but you're not doing anything dishonestly.
 
Balerion said:
No, but you're not doing anything dishonestly.
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Neither is/was Sagan, Tarter or Shostak and company.
Nothing really dishonest about doing fair dinkum science.
In fact they are benefiting and helping mankind, including the real charlatans and fools.
 
paddoboy said:
Neither is/was Sagan, Tarter or Shostak and company.
Nothing really dishonest about doing fair dinkum science.
In fact they are benefiting and helping mankind, including the real charlatans and fools.
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They're lying about contact probabilities to receive funding. Nothing they do makes any contribution to science or society.
 
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