Donald The Progressive

Michael · Oct 25, 2016

iceaura said:
In your world, as well as mine, no city has a sewer system unless a government has provided one and taxed its citizens to pay for it. In your world, as well as mine, standard economic and game theory explains that.

Oh really?
LOL

In 1980 Kyoto Japan (one of Japan's largest cities) about 40% of the people who lived there used a privately owned (modern high tech) privy vault. Why? Well, to quote YOU: standard economics. It's cheaper to own and maintain your own privy vault when compared to the cost burden to run a public sewer system (which also wastes a ton of water).

World Bank Article: John M. Kalbermatten, DeAnne S. Julius, and Charles G. Gunnerson. "Appropriate Technology; Water Supply and Sanitation; Technical and Economic Options" (pdf), World Bank, December 1980, referenced 2013-01-16.

Mises comment here:
According to a 1980 study produced for the World Bank, only about 34 percent of the total Japanese population have sewers, while an even higher percentage rely on a highly modernized version of the privy vault (which includes a system of vacuum trucks). The authors chose Kyoto as their case study, a city where privy vaults serve 40 percent of the population, while another 40 percent use conventional sewers. They contend that privy vaults in Kyoto have several notable advantages. First, they are cheaper to run. This is because they have lower recurrent costs (or day-to-day costs) than sewers. Indeed, low recurrent costs have been invariably portrayed as the raison d'etre of sewers. Sewers, as the quintessential capital-intensive technology, were supposed to essentially run themselves.

Sewers generate a whole set of recurrent costs, including consumption of large quantities of water, an increasingly expensive commodity. A second recurrent cost is the costly treatment plants needed by the average sewer system. The authors calculated that if added together, all these recurrent costs make sewers more than twice as expensive as privy vaults. Privy vaults also do not produce nearly as much water pollution as sewers, and in fact, from a public health standpoint, are equally safe.

The Japanese example reveals that existing technologies can with some improvements be made entirely compatible with urbanization, industrialization, and environmental protection. Moreover, the authors point out that, unlike privy vaults, centralized sewer systems require massive investment costs not only to built but also to maintain.

--o--
This is my comment, as I have said in the past, IF it is not possible to organize large groups of humans without initiating violence against morally innocent people - then we don't have those organizations. IOWs, if we can only maintain a city about the size of Kyoto - THEN THAT'S THE LIMIT. What's so hard to get here? We don't 'NEED' to live in Megacities. And if it requires human Slavery to do so, then we don't. Think you can agree to that much?

Michael · Oct 26, 2016

NBC News: Assange to Richard Engel: No Proof Russians Used WikiLeaks in DNC Leak

This isn't surprising, most Americans still think Saddam had WMD. The establishment will say and do anything (invade Vietnam, bailout criminal bankers / Helicopter Ben) and the functionally illiterate 'voting' public will buy it.

Ironically, Trump is The Progressive - regardless of how he played the demagogue to win support from the far-right. To imagine, he got Christians to support gay conservatives. That's says something. Can he beat the machine? I don't think so (see: our functionally illiterate electorate). Whereas, on the other hand, as the Progressive Green Party candidate Jill Stein has repeated: Hillary Clinton is the Warmonger. A vote for Hillary is blood on YOUR hands. It's a vote for war. For killing innocent women and children. So, you have to hand it to Dr Stein, unlike B.Sanders, she's telling it like it really is. Not that it matters, as if killing children keeps Americans up at night. No no no - whatever it takes, Americans want their free-healthcare, and free K-14, and free roads and other free-shit.

For Change Only An Insider Could Bring You (whether you want it or not)
-- WarHarpy (2016)

Incidentally, Russia is a bogyman. Pulled out the keep Government Schooled, Grade 6 reading level, America inline. You know, like "Communism" was in the past and "Fundamental Islam" (but not "plain ole' vanilla Islam" ... lol). Just as the Ayatollah's do in Iran. Up pops a Caricature of Uncle Sam and *boo* *hiss*. Or like in North Korea with "Capitalism"... boo boo boo hiss hiss hiss. Here, it's Russia. And the same functionally illiterate moron fall for that same ole' bull shit. Which is why we're going to get 4 more years of the same ole' shit, because "The" People, want Change We Cannot Believe In

iceaura · Oct 26, 2016

michael said:
In your world, as well as mine, no city has a sewer system unless a government has provided one and taxed its citizens to pay for it. In your world, as well as mine, standard economic and game theory explains that.
Oh really?
LOL

In 1980 Kyoto Japan (one of Japan's largest cities) about 40% of the people who lived there used a privately owned (modern high tech) privy vault.

And the rest of the city, including the public buildings and most of the private dwellings and 60% of the population, have a taxpaid government provided sewer system - and water supply, etc. Without this, almost none of the residents of Kyoto - not even the ones with private septic systems - would enjoy the benefits of modern sanitation, sewer and water systems safe and clean. Because the place would be a foul, reeking, diseased, slum.

Meanwhile, there remains the problem of dealing with the sludge - the sewage itself. The Japanese privy discharges partially treated water into nearby streams and other channels, and the sludge remaining must then be dealt with somehow. Those are both unsolved problems - and not solving them is a major source of the cost advantages to the richer people who can afford them, if any.

Fewer of them, as time goes by: http://www.jeces.or.jp/en/technology/images/johkasou_jinko.jpg

What's your point?

michael said:
Ironically, Trump is The Progressive - regardless of how he played the demagogue to win support from the far-right.

Trump is a reactionary. He is the chosen representative of the violent, authoritarian, racially bigoted, rightwing faction of the US. His supporters are the biggest backers of military violence, government torture, and everything else you claim to hate about government, that exist in the US. His reactionary rhetoric and political stance appeals to them. That's what he brings to the Presidency - everything you claim to hate about government.

Michael · Oct 26, 2016

Who knows? If WarHarpy has her way, maybe we'll all get to see one of these up close and personal. You know, because Russia (who has a GDP equivalent to Italy) is making up lies about WMD, is invading various countries trying to oust various government and when not murdering unknown numbers of women and children - is turning the M.E. into one big f*cking cesspool. Oh, wait - that's us.

"Hillary Clinton wants to start an air war over Syria with a nuclear-armed power [Russia] with 2,000 nuclear weapons on hair-trigger alert. Given Hillary Clinton’s record not only in Iraq, but in Libya, I think it is as dangerous as it gets"
-- Jill Stein (2016)

"Donald Trump wants to bar Muslims from entering this country, but Hillary Clinton has been very busy bombing Muslims in other countries"
-- Jill Stein (2016)

"A vote for Hillary, is a vote for War"
-- Jill Stein (2016)

And in a democracy, if you vote for a Warmonger, when the war starts - those dead children, pregnant mothers, fathers, that blood is on your hands. So, waddle your arse on down to the magic voting booth and pull the magic free-shit lever. See if WarHarpy can give you some free-shit. Small cost, bunch of dead children, but hey, K-12 worked out so well, 2 more years will surely do the trick.

LOL

Michael · Oct 26, 2016

iceaura said:
And the rest of the city, including the public buildings and most of the private dwellings and 60% of the population, have a taxpaid government provided sewer system - and water supply, etc. Without this, almost none of the residents of Kyoto - not even the ones with private septic systems - would enjoy the benefits of modern sanitation, sewer and water systems safe and clean.

That's not your argument. Your argument is we HAVE to use force against innocent humans in order to poop in large cities. Well, this is evidence that shows otherwise. It IS possible to build alternatives to sewers and provide cleaner, cheaper, better alternatives.

AND, my point was this: So long as it's a free-market solution, that's fine, build a private sewer. Now, notice how you are suddenly moving the goal post. Before it was only 'the rich' could afford to poop in a city (now we see that modern tanks are better, cheaper, and cleaner). Now it's 'public buildings' and the magical 60% (many will be businesses). Well get this: Businesses pay most of the tax anyway. And most of the 'public buildings' will (thankfully) be privatized. Therefor, it's up to THEM - the so called "Rich" to pay for THEIR sewers - at least they will if they want people to come to work, come to shop, etc...

Again, you just WANT government / to use the initiation of violence against morally innocent humans in a geographical location because this is normal to you. You look for every and any opportunity to post-hoc justify or cognitive bias you way towards supporting immoral behavior. Why? Well I know why. Because there's only one other group of people equally as superstitious: Religion.

Big God, little state
little god, Big State

There's a reason why 98% of Atheists support (overwhelmingly support) Statism.
How ironic too. LOL
The State is THEIR religion.

I provided evidence that The Poor can indeed poop for themselves. NOT ONLY THAT, but that it's cheaper, cleaner, better for the environment, and etc... Sorry, but the empirical data proves it is possible. And you know what, if it's not possible. If somehow it's totally impossible (which it's not). Then we simply don't live in cities of that size without having a voluntary agreement signed by the people moving into those cities on an individual by individual basis. Or we don't build those cities - which is equally as fine. But, my guess is, as the evidence suggests - it's actually quite easy. And given a market opportunity - I wouldn't be surprised the poor wouldn't be paid for, and make money off, their shit.

Now, that's some free shit I can get behind

Michael · Oct 26, 2016

iceaura said:
Meanwhile, there remains the problem of dealing with the sludge - the sewage itself. The Japanese privy discharges partially treated water into nearby streams and other channels, and the sludge remaining must then be dealt with somehow. Those are both unsolved problems - and not solving them is a major source of the cost advantages to the richer people who can afford them, if any.

I've lived in Japan. I've seen the trucks come and clean the tanks. It's really no different than when a garbage truck comes and collects your garbage - only cleaner. There is no smell - at all. I grew up in the countryside, we had a septic tank, yeah, it gets cleaned once in awhile. The one's in Japan are not those holes in the ground. They're high-tech vacuum sealed tanks.

The point again, is that "The Poor" (of which, in a free society with little regulations and good genetics and culture there will be very very very few of - and those very few will probably be due to a accident of genetics, or child abuse - both of which can be dealt with) can indeed manage to take a poop for themselves and *GAAAASP* wipe their own butt

LOL

You know what this reminds me of? That time I posted the Free Market Reforms of Nobunaga. Totally changed the dynamic within the same society and generated so much wealth he was able to conquer all of Japan.

If we had stuck to the limited role of the State from the 1940s (let alone the 1900s) we would have disposable incomes of the equivalent to $350,000 annually. If we had stuck to the late 1800s - my guess is, we'd be having this discussion on Mars. THAT is how much the Government retards growth.

Michael · Oct 26, 2016

Americans might be penniless, they might be homeless, they might be fucked over and fucked up it doesn't matter, because it's equalized on that day - a millionaire has the same number of votes as the person without a job: one. And there's more of the former middle class than there are in the millionaire class. So on November 8 the dispossessed will walk into the voting booth, be handed a ballot, close the curtain, and take that lever or felt pen or touchscreen and put a big fucking X in the box by the name of the man who has threatened to upend and overturn the very system that has ruined their lives: Donald J Trump.

Yes, on November 8, you Joe Blow, Steve Blow, Bob Blow, Billy Blow, all the Blows get to go and blow up the whole goddamn system because it's your right. Trump's election is going to be the biggest fuck ever recorded in human history and it will feel good.

-- Michael Moore (2016)

** NOTE: As far as I am aware, Moore supports WarHarpy by the by.

iceaura · Oct 26, 2016

michael said:
That's not your argument. Your argument is we HAVE to use force against innocent humans in order to poop in large cities. Well, this is evidence that shows otherwise. - -
- - -
I provided evidence that The Poor can indeed poop for themselves. NOT ONLY THAT, but that it's cheaper, cleaner, better for the environment, and etc... Sorry, but the empirical data proves it is possible.

You posted confirmation that Kyoto is yet another large city that has a taxpaid, government provided, sewer system. And without one of those, it would be a disease-ridden shithole - literally. Just as theory predicts, and all experience confirms.

Meanwhile, the percentage of the population of Japan with government sewer connection rises every year, as people move into the cities from the rural areas.

michael said:
I've lived in Japan. I've seen the trucks come and clean the tanks. It's really no different than when a garbage truck comes and collects your garbage - only cleaner

Yes, it is quite a bit like garbage pickup - at least, minus the water and dissolved chemical fraction, that was straightpiped into the nearest stream and downhill from there. And then the truck drives away, and the problem is solved - because sewage taken away by truck is so much cheaper and cleaner than sewage taken away by pipe. To, like, somewhere else, you know, far away, so you don't have to think about it. It just - - disappears. Doesn't smell at all!

Here's a question that doesn't seem to have occurred to you: What is the Japanese sewage equivalent of a garbage dump?

michael said:
You know what this reminds me of? That time I posted the Free Market Reforms of Nobunaga. Totally changed the dynamic within the same society and generated so much wealth he was able to conquer all of Japan.

That was pretty funny, yeah - your knack for picking the exact time and place and person in history that best blows your latest thesis to hell has few more striking examples. Or have you forgotten what five minutes on the magic internet search machine turned up on Nobunaga's big government reforms and big government innovations and big government regulation of the economy, that I was kind enough to post for you, so you would never make that mistake again?

michael said:
If we had stuck to the limited role of the State from the 1940s (let alone the 1900s) we would have disposable incomes of the equivalent to $350,000 annually. If we had stuck to the late 1800s - my guess is, we'd be having this discussion on Mars.

The limited role of the State during WWII, you post (forgetting what you posted before about it). The limited role of the State during Reconstruction and Homesteading after the Civil War, you post (forgetting what happened when you did that before). Immediately after returning, like a dog to its vomit, to your time of humiliation over Nobunaga - and apparently with no memory of what happened then either.

What's wrong with the memory of the reactionary American right? That's an entire political faction of Americans who cannot remember anything, even stuff that happened to them personally.

Michael · Oct 26, 2016

Which is why I said, we'll have to wait until you Progressive Socialists destroy another society: Ours.

Let's see, first the Progressive Socialists gave us a Progressive Central Bank backed by fiat (forced) Government Progressive Income Tax and in as little as 15 years America was in the middle of the Great Depression. This of course gave rise to another wonderful socialist enterprise: the National-Socialist German Workers' Party. Meanwhile some other socialists, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and CCP run People's Republic of China was busy starving 10s of millions of humans to death. After nuking a couple cities of civilians, our Progressive Central Bank paid for Givernment to first: force minimum wage (which put black Americans out of work - as it was specifically designed to do) and then provided them with free-shit, (namely our Government run Welfare Ghettos). Oh, and Givernmint also provided us with our Government Schools where 1 in 5 graduates lack the ability to competently read and write. And hyper-regulated Healthcare which is probably the reason you and I will die. When our Progressive Bank fueled Progressive GivernMint isn't starting phony wars in Vietnam, Iraq, Libya, then running the largest PIC in human history (thanks to it's morality laws like the War on Drugs/ War on Americans) etc... all while busily bailing out criminal bankers.

Yes, I understand, there's no argument at all, (moral or empirical) that will dissuade the Religious from their Religious Belief. In this case: Statism. That's the nature of Belief. The superstitious cannot be reasoned with.

So, we wait. Not for you to come to your senses - but for you to eat yourselves

Maybe we get a Trump, maybe we get a WarHarpy - it isn't going to matter one iota. The course we are on has a destination. And, if you want to know that destination, take a look at Detroit, Chiraq or Venezuela. We'll go even lower.

In the meantime: just remember this much, if Warmonger gets elected, and starts bombing cities of Syrian civilians (as she specifically stated she intends to do), then that blood is on the hands of each and every person who voted for her. Morally it is no different than if they had murdered those children themselves. Why? Because, again, WarHarpy specifically stated this is what she wants to do.

Agreed?

Good.

Then we agree to that much

Now, let's see if we can't poop without shitting all over ourselves

iceaura · Oct 26, 2016

michael said:
Let's see, first the Progressive Socialists gave us a Progressive Central Bank backed by fiat (forced) Government Progressive Income Tax and in as little as 15 years America was in the middle of the Great Depression. This of course gave rise to another wonderful socialist enterprise: the National-Socialist German Workers' Party.

Changing the subject again, this time to your long-debunked standard claims about the US banking and income tax. Ok - - - -

Things do not become "socialist" because you - or some marketing expert in Germany - name them so. The word has a meaning - get a dictionary, look it up.

The early central bank setup in the US was not "progressive". It was not socialist, either. The baby steps toward regulating and "socializing" the US Federal Reserve came after - not before - the Great Depression. It is still a privately owned, for profit, capitalist entity.

The major factor in the creation of the NAZI Party was the hardship imposed by the Treaty of Versailles on top of the humiliation of losing WWI. The Party was formed in 1921, several years before the Crash and Great Depression, with Hitler as its first and only strongman leader. There was nothing socialist about its programs or agenda - they had the same attitude toward the Central Banks that you have, the same basic prescriptions for what to do, the same apocalyptic satisfactions, the same tendency to rant and assert nonsense about historical events.

Like this:

michael said:
After nuking a couple cities of civilians, our Progressive Central Bank paid for Givernment to first: force minimum wage (which put black Americans out of work - as it was specifically designed to do) and then provided them with free-shit, (namely our Government run Welfare Ghettos).

Aside from the nuking of two cities full of civilians, none of that happened - the Federal minimum wage (many States had had them for decades) came years before the nuking of Japanese cities and did not force black people out of work, black people had been forced into ghettos by capitalist free-market banks and business interests and private citizens years before during the Great Migration, and the Central Bank did not pay for any of that stuff.

Meanwhile, in your characteristic ability to choose exactly the wrong illustration: The biggest free-shit giveaway since the Homestead Acts really was being put into operation at exactly the time you chose for your mistaken free-shit for black people claims: the GI Bill. Bernie Sanders's program, essentially - free college, subsidized housing, socialized medicine, the whole shot.

The result was a boom in US prosperity we have never matched since - and possibly no one else has ever matched either. We're still living off it.

Carcano · Oct 26, 2016

Is this an endorsement from Michael Moore of all people???
Yep...Donald fits his own niche...not progressive, not conservative.

Michael · Oct 27, 2016

iceaura said:
Things do not become "socialist" because ....

William Wallace wasn't a True Scotsman, he wore blue and green, TRUE Scotsman wear green and blue!
LOL

This is why I refer to Statist Authoritarianism. You're sort of like a Christian who's damn sure he's not a Catholic, but wait wait wait, Jehovah's Witness and Pentecostal and - thems' thar not 'True' Christians.

As for the founding of our Statist Central Banking Cartel. Let's see, who proposed and signed that Act into law? Oh, yes, that's right, the Act was signed into law by President Woodrow Wilson. And who was Woodrow Wilson? Oh, yes, he was the leader of the leading force of the Progressive Movement and pushed through progressive legislative policies unparalleled in US history, including calling a "special" session of Congress and passing the Revenue Act of 1913 including the Progressive Income tax and lowering tariffs.

What was it the Central Bank did? Oh yes, that's right, it manipulated the price of money (interest rates) working hand in glove with the BOE to reestablish the price peg of the pound to gold and in so doing brought on the roaring 20s, massive malinvestment, culminating the Great Depression and deaths of unknown numbers of people. Meanwhile, a couple of Socialist movements were underway: the National-Socialist German Workers' Party and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. And we all know how that worked out.

Well well well, with a Central Bank able to sell debt-obligations on the unborn, all you need is an ever increasing tax-base. Which, thanks to The Baby's, made all sorts of idiocracy possible. Free GiverMint Schools, Hyper-Regulated Healthcare, The War on Drugs/Americans, Never-Ending-War, the NSA, and a million other alphabet soup of wasteful agencies. ALL made possible thanks to Progressive Socialism. Which, bye the bye, will be the death of Norther Europe - AGAIN. Only this time, my guess is, for good.

So, yes, I understand; in the exact same way as Islamists don't want to be confused with Christians; and just as Catholics don't want to be confused with Protestants; and just as Baptists are damn well sure THEY and THEY ALONE are the TRUE Religion, you probably think your belief, your form of Statist Authoritarianism is the "TRUE" Progressive "Democratic" Socialism - the one that leads us all to Heaven (when all the others have led us to Hell), well, the truth is - that still puts you under the embrella of Statist Authoritarian. No different than all the others.

Note: The Religious analogy of Socialism, is Fundamentalism. A Fundamental belief in the State. Whereas, your "Live and Let Live" Religions would be more akin to Libertarianism. You do you thing, I do mine.

iceaura · Oct 28, 2016

michael said:
This is why I refer to Statist Authoritarianism.

Nobody has objected to that. It's your ignorant, US talk radio level misuse of "socialist" that was mocked.

michael said:
You're sort of like a Christian who's damn sure he's not a Catholic, but wait wait wait, Jehovah's Witness and Pentecostal and - thems' thar not 'True' Christians.

You've been running around claiming Nigerians are Scotchmen. They aren't. If you don't know why not, get a globe and ask a third grade teacher to explain it to you.

The word "socialist" has meaning in the English language. It refers to some things and people, and not to others. Likewise with the words "fascist", "capitalist", "statist", "pugilist", "communist", "pragmatist", and so forth. These words are not synonyms.

michael said:
So, yes, I understand; in the exact same way as Islamists don't want to be confused with Christians; and just as Catholics don't want to be confused with Protestants;

It's not just the adherents who need to keep these matters straight - it's also anyone trying to analyze historical events. If you start interchanging terms like "Muslim" and "Christian", you will confuse yourself about what happened and why it happened.

michael said:
What was it the Central Bank did? Oh yes, that's right, it manipulated the price of money (interest rates) working hand in glove with the BOE to reestablish the price peg of the pound to gold and in so doing brought on the roaring 20s, massive malinvestment, culminating the Great Depression and deaths of unknown numbers of people.

1) If that were anything close to real history, it would be an example of one of the dangers of commodity based currency - the gold standard - as opposed to "fiat" currency. Right?

2) It would also be a shining example of the dangers of failing to regulate private, capitalist, large scale, for profit, banking. And that it was, actually - the next US government slapped regulations on that free market scene, and no more disasters for fifty years - until they were lifted and repealed.

michael said:
Meanwhile, a couple of Socialist movements were underway: the National-Socialist German Workers' Party - - -

That one was not a socialist movement. It was fascist - that is, myth-based and militaristic rightwing authoritarian. (Coca Cola is not "The Real Thing", either. And "Obsession" perfume is not even habit-forming.) They even turned their death camps into profit centers, renting slaves to corporate capitalists as cheap labor.

Just to note: the characteristic reliance on myth-based revision of historical event is a field mark of fascism - and of your posting here, which is also rightwing and reactionary and enamored of authoritarian policy.

Which is why you can't figure out that Trump is Reactionary, and not Progressive.

Michael · Oct 31, 2016

iceaura said:
Which is why you can't figure out that Trump is Reactionary, and not Progressive.

Unlike the leaders of the Americans Revolution, whom according to you were 'Progressive Socialists'.
LOL

As for the LEADING Progressive of his day: Woodrow Wilson. He signed the Revenue Act of 1913 giving us our Progressive Income tax - the one that's bailing out the richest 0.01% of Americans 'for the Good of Society'. It also funds our Never Ending Wars - including the War on Drugs. Wilson also gave us our Progressive Central Bank - which promptly ushered in the Great Depression and WWII. Which has sold trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions of debt obligations on generations of unborn Americans to bail out our bankrupt Socialist System.

Socialism: We agree it's a form of Authoritarianism. And, as we live in Nation States, we agree it's form of Statist Authoritarianism. The Socialist State is organized in such as way as to ensure that private property (including your body) as well as the distribution of income (which usually becomes fiat) are subject to social control. Which eventually devolves into its fundamental nature: Authoritarian control; enforced by the State's Government via various militant agencies Which is why we see Lenin, Hitler, Hugo, and etc...

The reason why education is broken? Socialism.
The reason why your medical "care" cost so much and is likely to kill you? Socialism.

Now, let's see which of the Statist Authoritarians gets elected: Trump the Progressive or Warharpy the Warmonger. Not going to change the functional illiteracy rate - that will only change when Government Schools are replaced with Privately owned and operated schools. Not going to change the fact the medical care is your #1 reason for leaving this earth - that will only change when medicine is a free-market.

The ONLY thing that WILL change - is how much violence is initiated. Will it be a little or will it be lot?

iceaura · Oct 31, 2016

michael said:
Unlike the leaders of the Americans Revolution, whom according to you were 'Progressive Socialists'.

No, you're the guy who doesn't know what a socialist is.

I have always described them as capitalists, very clearly and directly to you - including the slaveowners, of course: I insisted on that, if you recall. Repeated it, several times, in the face of your denials and evasions.

michael said:
As for Socialism itself: We agree it's a form of Authoritarianism. And, as we live in Nation States, we agree it's form of Statist Authoritarianism

That's your delusion, not mine. I have a dictionary, and a liberal arts education, so I know better.

Screwing up one's vocabulary like that makes it a lot harder to reason, analyze, or even think. It's a completely avoidable handicap.

Donald is reactionary. Classic. Type specimen. That is the opposite of progressive.

Michael · Nov 1, 2016

iceaura said:
No, you're the guy who doesn't know what a socialist is.

LOL
Oh, I'm sure when you're done, there won't be a single true Scotsman living in Scotland.

Again, "Socialism" is a form of Authoritarianism. While it's not exactly the same as Religious Authoritarianism, agents of the State aren't going to shoot you in the head for the Glory of God. They're not going to cut out your tongue for blaspheming the Gods. No, that's not going to happen. If anything, Socialists hate Religion, given the added competition. No, Socialists won't kill you for walking about without a Burka, they will strangle you to death for selling a 0.50 cent cigarette though. But that's okay. That's for the Good of Society - it's called Progress. Because you use "The" Roads. Oh course, extreme forms of Socialism will shoot you in the head of blaspheming the State (see: all USSR, North Korea, Cuba, etc...).

Socialism requires that the State is organized in such as way as to ensure that private property (including your body) as well as the distribution of income (which eventually becomes by fiat) are subject to social control.

** key up on the word 'control'. Because it'll be the State doing the controlling through it's various militant agencies 'for the Good of the People' by initiating violence against morally innocent Citizens / tax chattel.

A great example of socialism in the USA is a State owned and run Welfare Ghetto. Or a State owned and run Government School. Or a State owned and run, Central Bank together with it's State-enforced fiat currency and T-Bonds. Our State run NSA - another fantastic example of Socialism. Or our State run IRS - more fantastic examples of socialism. All of our State-owned and run militant agencies. The CIA, FBI, Pentagon, and etc....

Then we start to bleed over to our the Fascistic institutions. Like our Government-run Universities, that charge tens of thousands of dollars in tuition, that maintain the rent-seeker relationships the State enforces through regulatory capture via State owned and run militant orgnaizations. Very little in our so-called "free" society is untouched by the hand of the State. Everything from whom you can write-off your tax on / marry, to what you can consume in your own body. On and on it goes.

Finally, yes, you are (for now) somewhat allowed to choose whom you form a relationship with. You have SOME small control over what you eat. You have SOME control over how your children are educated (for now - many Socialists would like to bring this to an end). Sure, there are SOME vestiges of a free society that haven't completely rotted off. Small in number, and thanks to Progressive/Authoritarian Socialists -rapidly diminishing. But don't worry, demographics will ensure these wither away completely - make no mistake about that.

IMP people like you - take a lot for granted. You assume you're going to use the State to give you something for nothing (free healthcare), and that this doesn't change everything. Well, you are wrong. Luckily, you'll have the time to normalize, so that being spied on, paying a labor tax, asking permission to legally marry, and never ending trillion dollar phony wars - all seem perfectly normal.

Thanks to Progressives, led by PROGRESSIVE Woodrow Wilson, America ended at the turn of the last century. We now live as Citizens of the United States.

Donald is reactionary. Classic. Type specimen. That is the opposite of progressive.

LOL

One more time in case you missed it the last two: Woodrow Wilson was the LEADER of the PROGRESSIVE party. The twat signed the Revenue Act of 1913 into Law, giving us a Progressive Income tax. Turning all American Citizens into State owned Tax Chattel. Of course, he had to, that's how Central Banking by Fiat works. Which is how you get 'free shit'. It's the exact opposite of FREE people.

Not that any of this matters. The experiment called America failed and was ended over a century ago. Not with a bang. But a whimper. The best option now to wait for the corruption and moral decay to set in good in deep - which is why WarHarpy is the best option (assuming she doesn't start a nuclear WWIII). Then, maybe that bag of poo makes it 4 years, maybe we elect her daughter? Who knows? Maybe the Obama's kids or the Bushes kids can run? On and on this goes. I wonder which gets to pay Redistributor the Great?

We become more regulated, pay more fiat currency, lose more rights, become poorer.
That's our future.

Then, people finally get fed up and the individual States can peacefully succeed.
Won't that be nice

Well, there is one way to prevent the inevitable. Completely end the Progressive Welfare State. End the Federal Reserve. End Income Tax. Return to a limited government. None of which is very likely to happen.

But, just think, once the States succeed, then YOU can live in your own little Progressive Socialist paradise. Hopefully run by a Clinton - for the good of the roads, with all your free Government provided medical care, and free Government Schooling, and free Government food, and free Government Housing - yes, your life will be grand, everything will suck and you'll be shot in the head for questioning the State, but hey, a small price to pay for Government run sewers.

And WE, well, we can do our thing.

Seems reasonable to me

iceaura · Nov 1, 2016

michael said:
Oh, I'm sure when you're done, there won't be a single true Scotsman living in Scotland.

Again, "Socialism" is a form of Authoritarianism

No, it isn't. Start there. Your local county volunteer fire department is not an authoritarian institution, for example. It is a socialist institution - a community of some kind owns the building and trucks and gear, pays the costs including any wages, etc. The left/right, socialist/capitalist scale is independent of the - let's say (as most do) - up/down, authoritarian/libertarian scale.

When you have mastered that basic fact, you can try out your new understanding - I'll help you out with this:

Michael said:
A great example of socialism in the USA is a State owned and run Welfare Ghetto.

There aren't any in the US, but that would be Socialist, yes, if it existed.

michael said:
Or a State owned and run Government School.

That's often Socialist (if the government is so established), and common. They work really well in most places.

micheal said:
Or a State owned and run, Central Bank together with it's State-enforced fiat currency and T-Bonds.

Normally Socialist/Left, although a Fascist/Right or Monarchist etc one should be possible in theory (in a company town, say). The US doesn't have one of those, btw, except in North Dakota - and that one issues no currency. Some nations do - they usually work better than the US Federal setup (so does North Dakota's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_North_Dakota).

michael said:
Our State run NSA - another fantastic example of Socialism. Or our State run IRS - more fantastic examples of socialism. All of our State-owned and run militant agencies. The CIA, FBI, Pentagon, and etc....

Those are all State functions handled by State bureaucracies and agencies - not owned means of production or providers of service. Without the State they don't exist, with any State and economic setup - socialist, capitalist, or otherwise - they do exist. Not Socialist.

You seem to have confused governance itself with Socialism.

Michael said:
Socialism requires that the State is organized in such as way as to ensure that private property (including your body) as well as the distribution of income (which eventually becomes by fiat) are subject to social control.

That's called "civilization", not "socialism". All human society requires that - except of course that you mention "private property", which is not a requirement. Socialism does not require private property at all - or "income", for that matter.

Michael said:
Then we start to bleed over to our the Fascistic institutions.

That would be at the opposite end of the capitalist/socialist, right/left scale. You'd be leaping, not bleeding. But as it turns out, you're doing neither - just babbling: "Like our Government-run Universities, that charge tens of thousands of dollars in tuition, that maintain the rent-seeker relationships the State enforces through regulatory capture via State owned and run militant orgnaizations".

So the Pentagon is socialist, and the land-grant University of Minnesota is fascist, in your world.

michael said:
Not that any of this matters. The experiment called America failed and was ended over a century ago

When Abraham Lincoln brought the Federal army in and robbed the major US capitalists of their major capital stock at gunpoint, often killing them in the process. You've mentioned that before. A sad day for the American Rightwing Libertarian. Not so bad a day for liberty, though, from a certain Leftwing point of view - right?

Meanwhile, Trump is still a reactionary - the opposite of a progressive (even a "progressive" like Woodrow Wilson has little in common with Trump).

iceaura · Nov 2, 2016

So the following rumor seems to me an interesting and plausible possibility: Donald Trump cannot read, or at least cannot read very well - he's "functionally" illiterate.

And the interest of that question lies in the following followup: If Trump can't read, does that make him more attractive as a President, or less?

Because if he can't read, in fact, his demonstrated abilities become more impressive rather than less; meanwhile, many of his deficiencies and flaws have better excuse, reflect less directly on his character.

Michael · Nov 7, 2016

So? Is the Political Reality Show over yet?

LOL

Apparently not yet

I've noticed a few of my Libertarian friends leaning towards Trump. I'll tell you, what I told them: Sure, he's not as bad as WarHarpy. Unlike her, he probably won't start more Wars or initiate WWIII. However, as I stated: We do not want or need a Progressive POTUS. The only Progressive in this race is Trump. Trump, who might accidentally make a positive change. That's the last thing we want to have happen.

Look, I know. You don't want to lose your leg. You're desperate to keep it. Trump appears to be the cure. Well, too bad. There is no saving the leg. As a matter of fact, the "leg", doesn't even exist. Not as you knew it. That leg is gone, it only exists in your mind now.

Let it go

Again, I know. I can imagine how coming to this conclusion isn't easy. But, come to it you have to.
Deal with it.
America is dead and gone
Long live the USA

LOL

"Why Choose Between a 'Fascist' and a 'Warmonger'?
-- Jill Stein, The Green Party

She's right you know, on BOTH accounts. But wrong on the 'between'.
Now, on with THE Show!

Michael · Nov 7, 2016

AND - just think, once this farce has finished, in 18 months, we can begin ALL OVER AGAIN

There's no two ways about it, this election has been one of the best things to happen on The Farm in a long time. Good to see the functional illiterates are finally calling the shots!
Seriously, if this election is a portent for things to come, well well well - that's a great sign. Nothing says dysfunctional rot like the public service on full display

Donald The Progressive

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