I think the discussion re rape has taken the opportunity for discussion well away from what the thread is about by indulging in arguement as to what this or that means...for folk who become focused on the words of a biblical passage perhaps should remember that these words come from another language translated from another language and have experienced many edits and even looking at the Hewbrew text meaning is often difficult to nail down.
Jan has at least attempted to interpret the original Hebrew and in doing so shows us the difficulty just in that area so if we add onto that difficulty the additional opportunity of misinterpretation during the various translations and edits perhaps one need to realise that when quoting your bible you may be very far away from the original story.
And when it comes to quoting the words of Jesus one must remember that if he said anything that his words were passed on by word of mouth for it seems at least two generations and probably even longer before they were written down.
Now just think of just how much text we must believe was not corrupted by being passed along by word of mouth...heck if you limited the problem to just say the sermon on the mount what do you think would be the chances of us reading today that text and it being the same as what Jesus delivered.
Do folk ever stop to think about that?
Do folk ever stop to think about the plot of the god story? It is rather odd..and certainly a long way from Devine...
...the point is here that the reliability of recording his exact words or deeds leave much room for error in the correct reporting
...his words and deeds were not recorded at the moment of him saying the words or acting out the deeds..they were not recorded in his lifetime, they were not recorded in the lifetime of the following generation or the generation after that from what we can tell.
For all we know a powerful Roman family could have commissioned a jewish scolar to write the gospels to suit the families purposes and made three of their family members the first saints and set up the Christian church in Rome and embarked on a campaigne to outlaw all other competing cults based on astrology...anything is possible.
..so just think of the volumes of text in the newtestament that claim to be the words of Jesus...
does anyone seriously believe that so much endured unaltered for two generations...now folk can argue about how that is not a problem but really it is a big problem
...add to that the difficulty of establishing the authors of the gospels one can only wonder what words and deeds of Jesus made it to the new testament that are the truth....
But what we do have is certain passages in the bible that are very negative to women and whether they have made it there uncorupted by translation or various edits or misinterpretation they today appear as they do...these passages I maintain should be removed...take out anything that is not showing respect for the ladies.
Now the following is just the start of the article from the first material I posted a link for, in the hope that it would receive comment and discussion could evolve...
I wonder who read it...so I have copied part of it so that folk like Jan and Weggs can read it and perhaps make a specific comment
...I would encourage them to read all the article which means following the link ( which appears again below) but what is here I hope will bring discussion upon the issues therein.
...This is the second instalment of an ABC News and 7.30 investigation into domestic violence and religion. You can read part one in the series — on domestic violence and Islam — here.
The culprits were obvious: it was the menopause or the devil.
Who else could be blamed, Peter screamed at his wife in nightly tirades, for her alleged insubordination, for her stupidity, her lack of sexual pliability, her refusal to join him on the 'Tornado' ride at a Queensland waterpark, her annoying friendship with a woman he called "Ratface"? For her sheer, complete failure as a woman?
The abuse went on, day and night, as Sally bore a child, worked morning shifts at the local hospital and stayed up late pumping breast milk for her baby.
She was deeply exhausted, depleted and worn.
The night before Sally finally left her husband and the townhouse they lived in on Sydney's northern beaches he told her she was also failing her spiritual duties.
"Your problem is you won't obey me. The Bible says you must obey me and you refuse," he yelled. "You are a failure as a wife, as a Christian, as a mother. You are an insubordinate piece of s**t."
Sally, an executive assistant who had just turned 44, stared at him, worrying about whether her neighbours — or her sleeping daughter — could hear his roars through the thin walls.
She knew what had "flicked his switch": the simple act of coming down to say goodnight, which he interpreted as a lack of willingness to have sex.
Peter then opened his Bible and read out some verses:
"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Saviour."
Ephesians 5: 22-23
Next was:
"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness I permit no woman to teach or have authority over a man; rather, she is to remain silent."
1 Timothy 2: 11-12
For years, Sally had believed that God wanted her to submit to her husband, and she did her best, bending to his will and working to pay the bills, despite the pain she was in.
But on this night, she was done. The next morning, she packed up her bags, grabbed some clothes for her daughter and left, taking the little girl with her.
She left everything else behind.
Religion and domestic violence: the missing link
When we speak of domestic violence, and the cultural factors that foment it, one crucial element missing from the discussion has been religion.
While it is
generally agreed that inequality between the sexes can foster and cultivate environments where men seek to control or abuse women, in Australia there has been very little public debate about how this might impact people in male-led congregations and religious communities, especially those where women are told to be silent and submit to male authority.
The full article is here
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-18/domestic-violence-church-submit-to-husbands/8652028
Now I have read many affidavits setting out similar so I am rather convinced there is a problem as we see above...So to Weggs and Jan I ask could we have discussion on this article please.
Alex
