2003 model cars show steady decline in fuel economy

duh.

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Success_Machine,

The URL you provided is the same as one of the two you previously posted!

"A US Department of Agriculture study concludes that ethanol contains 34%
more energy than is used to grow and harvest the corn and distill it into ethanol"

What I said before still holds: Where's the hard data? What USDA study?

Take care

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"We must respect the rights of the dissenters, even though they
.might be idiots or harmful." - Wau Holland - (Died 07/29/01) -

 

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Is this some sort of neo-existentialism: "If I don't click on the link, you can't prove to me the website exists!" :bugeye:

Try again:
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html

 

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Success_Machine ...

How many times are you going to post the same URL? This is the third
time you've directed me to the 'journeytoforever.org' web site.

Now how about some meat? You've fed me enough fluff.

Take care

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"We must respect the rights of the dissenters, even though they
.might be idiots or harmful." - Wau Holland - (Died 07/29/01) -

 

Chagur -- that url has links to the actual reports, but here they are:

PRO: http://www.ncga.com/public_policy/issues/2001/ethanol/08_22_01c.htm
CON: http://hubbert.mines.edu/news/v98n2/mkh-new7.html

A quick look at the "pro" one makes me think the prospects for ethanol are not as rosy as portrayed by the creator of this thread.

 

Feasible solar power

A plan to create enormous amounts of power from the sun and wind.

Smaller scale versions have worked quite well.

BTW, my electronics lecturer, a senior member of the IEEE and an expert in nuclear, electrical, and alternative power sources, believes these towers are a damn great idea.

 

Re: Feasible solar power

I calculate a power-to-land area ratio of 2.5W / m² for this chimney structure (5km radius circle generating 200MW). That's less than one percent efficiency. Also, there exist far too many engineering difficulties in a project of this complexity. I highly doubt these structures will ever be built.

- Warren

 

A few points from the article

 

I read the article, in its entirety. I responded to a bit right in the middle of your supplied quote. Do you have a point?

- Warren

 

Just that the experts seem to think it is quite possible, and quite a good idea. Including, as I said, a senior member of the IEEE.

 

postoak ...

Thanks for the links, but I'd already read them ... and a few others the URL refers to ... and not one of them states the actual efficiency and BTU gain under current production capabilities but rather the supposed, or projected gains under what can only be considered 'ideal' conditions that are usually dependant on fossil fuel supplimentation.

Also, and what I find most interesting, is that none of the 'pro' reports seriously address the 'con' aspects. Sort of a 'preaching to the believers' situation that makes me even more critical of Success_Machine's position.

My initial question:

Is still valid ... And has not been answered.

Take care

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"We must respect the rights of the dissenters, even though they
.might be idiots or harmful." - Wau Holland - (Died 07/29/01) -

 

Some groovy links I used for an assignment last semester:

Department of Electrical and Computer Systems Engineering, Monash University,
Solar Energy Applications Research Group (SEARG),
(A member of the World Renewable Energy Network, WREN),
http://www.ecse.monash.edu.au/prof/searg/ESAA-Shortcourse-indexsc.html

Department Of Energy’s Renewable Energy Annual 1996:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/solar.renewables/renewable.energy.annual/contents.html

International Council for Local Environmental Initiatives (ICLEI), Energy Facts: http://www.iclei.org/efacts/petro.htm

Laying The Foundation For Space Solar Power: An Assessment of NASA's Space Solar Power Investment Strategy (2001),
National Academy Press:
http://books.nap.edu/books/0309075971/html/index.html

Natural Gas at The Energy Source Network:
http://www.naturalgas.com/

Natural Gas Information & Educational Resources:
http://www.naturalgas.org/

Nuclear Tourist, an introduction to nuclear power technologies:
http://www.nucleartourist.com/basics/why.htm

Renewable Power Pathways: A Review of The U.S. Department of Energy's Renewable Energy Programs (2000),
National Academy Press:
http://www.nap.edu/books/0309069807/html/

Solarenergy.com
http://www.solarenergy.com

The World Factbook 2001: Energy Consumption:
http://www.bartleby.com/151/a77.html

Uranium Information Centre:
http://www.uic.com.au/nip37.htm

USA Department Of Energy, Energy Information Administration: Analyses:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/analysis/index.html

Wavegen:
http://www.wavegen.co.uk

Windpower Organisation:
http://www.windpower.org/core.htm

 

I don't know why I have to post direct links, but if you insist: Here are several articles in favor of ethanol:

Collection of reports published in 1995:

1. 1995 Full Report by US Dept of Agriculture
2. 1995 Full Report by US Institute for Local Self Reliance

Collection of reports published in 1998:

1. April 1998 Critical Report by Pimentel at Cornell University c/o Hubbert Center Colorado School of Mines

Collection of reports published in 2000:

1. February 2000 Report by Wang & Santini of Argonne National Laboratory c/o US National Corn Growers Association
2. April 2000 Article from Homestead Technology

Collection of reports published in 2001:

1. August 2001 Critical Report by Pimentel of Cornell University
2. August 2001 Full Rebuttal of Pimentel by US Corn Growers Association
3. Sept 2001 Full Rebuttal of Pimentel by Graboski at Colorado School of Mines

Collection of reports published in 2002:

1. August 2002 Abstract by US Renewable Fuels Association
2. July 2002 Full Report by US Dept of Agriculture
3. August 2002 News Item from Planet Ark


It is pretty clear why Pimentel got a negative result for ethanol production: he was using low-quality equipment with higher-than-average energy consumption. The only other study that had a small negative energy output for ethanol was due to extremely low crop yields per acre.

 

Just as a reminder Success_Machine, what I initially posted was:

"Considering that Hawaii has to import all of its fuel oil and
biomass is abundant, doesn't it seem logical that it would
already be the 'fuel of choice' were it feasible?"
*** How many times must I repeat it? ***

You have not addressed this and instead attempted to inundate
me with sites related to corn produced ethanol which vary widely
in their estimates of the true NEV and all of which refer to the
use of fossil fuels of one sort or another to achieve whichever
NEV they end up with.

This is ridiculous. Until you are willing to properly, and factually,
address the question I possed, forget it.

Take care

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"We must respect the rights of the dissenters, even though they
.might be idiots or harmful." - Wau Holland - (Died 07/29/01) -

 

I'm personally convinced that ethanol is the way to go. But if you are interested in motor grade ethanol production specifically in Hawaii, here are a list of publications:

1. July 1994 Ethanol Production in Hawaii, Processes, Feedstocks, and Current Economic Feasibility of Fuel Grade Ethanol Production in Hawaii, Prepared for State of Hawaii Department of Business, Economic Development & Tourism

2. October 1999 Siting Evaluation for Biomass-Ethanol Production in Hawaii, Report by Charles M. Kinoshita and Jiachun Zhou, Department of Biosystems Engineering, College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources, University of Hawaii at Manoa, Prepared for the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, October, 1999

3. June 2000 Hawaii Ethanol Production Tax Credit

4. If you live in Hawaii, you can attend the upcoming Fuel Ethanol Workshop and Free Classes for Automotive Service Technicians scheduled for November 14, 2002, 8:00 AM to 4:30 PM at the Ala Moana Hotel, 410 Atkinson Drive, Honolulu, Hawaii.

FYI the use of petroleum is unavoidable. Petroleum is used in ammonia based fertilizers, as lubricants, and most machinery is designed to use diesel as fuel. This equipment must be used through the end of their operational lifespan in order to recoup the cost of purchasing them. This is why flexible fueling will be very important in the future, because people will not be able to afford to replace all their power equipment in the event of a fuel shortage. It is far better to be able to use different fuels in the same machinery, since the machinery is so much more expensive than the fuel it consumes.

5. There is information on ethanol-diesel blends, so-called E-diesel, available at the Alternative Fuels Data Center. These blends work up to 15% ethanol using additives to stabilize the mixture and maintain lubrication. Specially designed diesel engines can burn 100% ethanol, but these modern engines are rarely incorporated into industrial & farming equipment, especially those already in use, and that are many years old.

 

Success_Machine ...

1. *** Could not access cited URL ***

2. "If ethanol were cost competitive with petroleum-based transportation
fuels, the State of Hawaii would be an ideal location to produce, distribute,
and use ethanol fuel." Note: Cost of production data not provided.

3. Legislation re. tax credit to encourage ethanol production.
Note: No information re. actual ethanol production.

4. Notice includes the following statement: "Ethanol fuel is not currently
produced in Hawaii. However, it could be."

5. "E-diesel is currently an experimental fuel. There are a number of technical
and regulatory barriers to commercialization."

Again, Success_Machine you have provided a number of URL's (5) that, if anything,
support my contention that ethanol fuel is not feasible at present even under
what might be considered ideal circumstances and conditions.

Take care

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"We must respect the rights of the dissenters, even though they
.might be idiots or harmful." - Wau Holland - (Died 07/29/01) -

 

1. You must have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed on your computer, and you must wait for the 5-Mb document to download.

2. These are feasibility studies for ethanol production in Hawaii. Naturally, since they are rather recent ethanol production has not reached industrial supply levels. In fact there are no industrial production facilities under construction for Hawaii at present.

3. Just an FYI, in case you want to start your own business! Have ye the stones?

4. Yes, ethanol could be produced in Hawaii, and the state government is trying to encourage it. Large-scale things tend to take a couple decades to gain momentum however. Machinery needs to be used & decommissioned, converted or replaced. Things need to be geared towards ethanol compatibility.

5. It would be great if every engine sold in North America was required to be compatible with either ethanol or biodiesel, in addition to the conventional petroleum fuel. This will avert the untold future costs of converting the engines, or replacing whole pieces of machinery, in the event of a fuel shortage.



Ethanol is feasible. Currently in the United States alone, more than 1.5 billion gallons of ethanol are blended with gasoline to produce E10, a ten percent ethanol in gasoline mixture. Nobody notices because no engine modifications are required for this minimal mixture of ethanol in their gasoline.

Right now, using ethanol is a choice, wherever it is available. Alot of people choose to burn ethanol, even more people don't know what ethanol is. Alot of people are driving vehicles that have factory modifications making them Flexible Fuel Vehicles able to burn 100% ethanol if they want. But many people aren't aware of their own vehicle's fueling options.

In the future, Kyoto protocols will incorporate environmental costs into the cost of fuel. It may turn out that after Kyoto, no tax incentives will be necessary for people to start building ethanol production facilities. It may be that gasoline has such a large envirnmental cost that ethanol becomes the consistently less expensive choice.

 

Success_Machine ...

1. Have AAR ... Waited ...Forget it.

2. Do you understand 'not currently produced'?

4. 'Could be' ... Isn't.

5. NOTE: ULEV's are not ethanol compatible!

"Nobody notices because no engine modifications are required
for this minimal mixture of ethanol in their gasoline."

Until they have to take their car to the garage for repairs.

Take care

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"We must respect the rights of the dissenters, even though they
.might be idiots or harmful." - Wau Holland - (Died 07/29/01) -

 

If you don't have the patience to download a 5 Mb document, you are never going to be able to rationalize renewable fuels. It takes quite a bit of thought before you figure out ethanol is the way to go. I didn't just decide that in one day, or even one month. It took more like a year or so to finally realize it, to rule out all the other alternatives.

 

" ... rationalize renewable fuels."

That's where it's at: 'rationalize' them.

Too bad you couldn't support your position.

Take care

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"We must respect the rights of the dissenters, even though they
.might be idiots or harmful." - Wau Holland - (Died 07/29/01) -