A sobering read

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Kittamaru, Feb 1, 2018.

  1. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    Messages:
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    https://splinternews.com/how-to-not-die-in-america-1822555151

    How do we justify a system where people can find themselves utterly destitute due to circumstances utterly beyond their control...and we call it normal...

    A sobering thought on what can easily happen to any number of middle class Americas.
     
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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Forget all its greatness the US fails because the system of health and indeed education are not free...in my view.


    In a country with a high percentage of religious folk one wonders why things are just unfair.

    That poor lady...what a terrible experience.

    I have had similar on two different occassions where poor health stopped me but the last thing I needed to worry about was maybe running out of money and not being able to be treated...not because I had money but because fortunately our system seems not just another commercial enterprise.

    Alex
     
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  5. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    From Wiki...

    Methodology

    Free Health care: Free health care refers to a publicly funded health care that provides primary services free of charge or a nominal fee to all its citizens, with no exclusions based on income or wealth.[3]

    Universal Health Care: Universal health care, sometimes referred to as universal health coverage, universal coverage, or universal care, usually refers to a health care system that provides healthcare and financial protection to more than 90% of the citizens of a particular country.[4]

    CountryFree Health careUniversal Health Care
    AfghanistanNoNo
    AlbaniaYesYes
    AlgeriaYesYes
    AndorraYesYes
    AngolaNoNo
    Antigua and BarbudaYesYes
    ArgentinaYesYes
    ArmeniaYesNo
    AustraliaYesYes
    AustriaYesYes
    AzerbaijanYesNo
    BahamasYesYes
    BahrainYesYes
    BangladeshYesNo
    BarbadosYesYes
    BelarusYesYes
    BelgiumYesYes
    BelizeNoYes
    BeninYesNo
    BhutanYesYes
    BoliviaYesYes [5]
    Bosnia and HerzegovinaYesYes
    BotswanaYesYes
    BrazilYesYes
    Brunei DarussalamYesYes
    BulgariaYesYes
    Burkina FasoYesYes
    BurundiNoNo
    Cabo VerdeYesNo
    CambodiaNoNo
    CameroonNoNo
    CanadaYesYes
    Central African RepublicYesNo
    ChadNoNo
    ChileYesYes
    ChinaYesYes
    ColombiaYesYes
    ComorosNoNo
    CongoYesNo
    Cook IslandsYesYes
    Costa RicaYesNo
    CroatiaYesYes
    CubaYesYes
    CyprusYesYes
    Czech RepublicYesYes
    Côte d'IvoireYesNo
    Democratic Republic of the CongoYesNo
    DenmarkYesYes
    DjiboutiYesNo
    Dominican RepublicNoNo
    DominicaNoNo
    EcuadorYesYes
    EgyptYesNo
    El SalvadorYesNo
    Equatorial GuineaYesNo
    EritreaYesYes
    EstoniaYesYes
    EthiopiaYesNo
    FijiYesYes
    FinlandYesYes
    FranceYesYes
    GabonYesYes
    GambiaNoNo
    GeorgiaYesYes
    GermanyYesYes
    GhanaNoYes
    GreeceYesYes
    GrenadaNoNo
    GuatemalaYesNo
    GuernseyYesYes
    Guinea-BissauNoNo
    GuineaNoNo
    GuyanaYesYes
    HaitiNoNo
    HondurasYesNo
    Hong KongYesYes
    HungaryYesYes
    IcelandYesYes
    IndiaYesYes
    IndonesiaNoNo
    IranYesYes [6]
    IraqNoNo
    IrelandYesNo
    Isle of ManYesYes
    IsraelYesYes
    ItalyYesYes
    JamaicaYesYes
    JapanYesYes
    JerseyYesYes
    JordanNoNo
    KazakhstanYesYes
    KenyaNoNo
    KiribatiYesYes
    KuwaitYesYes
    KyrgyzstanYesNo
    LaosYesNo
    LatviaYesYes
    LebanonNoNo
    LesothoYesNo
    LiberiaNoNo
    LibyaYesNo
    LiechtensteinYesYes
    LithuaniaYesYes
    LuxembourgYesYes
    MacauYesYes
    MacedoniaYesYes
    MadagascarYesNo
    MalawiYesNo
    MalaysiaYesYes
    MaldivesYesYes
    MaliNoNo
    MaltaYesYes
    Marshall IslandsNoNo
    MauritaniaNoNo
    MauritiusYesYes
    MexicoYesYes
    MicronesiaNoNo
    MoldovaYesYes
    MonacoYesYes
    MongoliaYesNo
    MontenegroYesYes
    MoroccoYesNo
    MozambiqueNoNo
    MyanmarYesNo
    NamibiaYesYes
    NauruYesYes
    NepalYesNo
    NetherlandsYesYes
    New ZealandYesYes
    NicaraguaYesNo
    NigeriaNoNo
    NigerNoNo
    NiueYesYes
    North KoreaYesYes
    NorwayYesYes
    OmanYesYes
    PakistanNoNo
    PalauYesYes
    PanamaYesYes
    Papua New GuineaYesNo
    ParaguayYesYes
    PeruYesYes
    PhilippinesYesNo
    PolandYesYes
    PortugalYesYes
    QatarYesYes
    RomaniaYesYes
    RussiaYesYes
    RwandaYesYes
    Saint Kitts and NevisNoNo
    Saint LuciaYesYes
    Saint Vincent and the GrenadinesYesYes
    SamoaYesYes
    San MarinoYesYes
    Saudi ArabiaYesYes
    SenegalNoNo
    SerbiaYesYes
    SeychellesYesYes
    Sierra LeoneNoNo
    SingaporeYesYes
    SlovakiaYesYes
    SloveniaYesYes
    Solomon IslandsYesNo
    SomaliaNoNo
    South AfricaYesNo
    South KoreaYesYes
    South SudanNoNo
    SpainYesYes
    Sri LankaYesYes
    SudanNoNo
    SurinameNoNo
    SwazilandYesNo
    SwedenYesYes
    SwitzerlandYesYes
    Syrian Arab RepublicNoNo
    São Tomé and PríncipeYesNo
    TaiwanYesYes
    TajikistanNoNo
    TanzaniaYesNo
    ThailandYesYes
    Timor-LesteYesYes
    TogoYesNo
    TongaYesYes
    Trinidad and TobagoYesYes
    TunisiaYesYes
    TurkeyYesYes
    TurkmenistanNoNo
    TuvaluYesYes
    UgandaYesNo
    UkraineYesYes
    United Arab EmiratesYesYes
    United KingdomYesYes
    United States of AmericaNoNo
    UruguayYesYes
    UzbekistanYesYes
    VanuatuYesYes
    VenezuelaYesYes
    Viet NamYesNo
    YemenYesNo
    ZambiaYesYes
    ZimbabweNoNo
     
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  7. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    United states is a NoNo.
    Build the wall you may need to keep people in.
    Alex
     
  8. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,802
    Aye, we are among nation's such as Somalia and Kenya and Iraq...woo,go Murica!
     
  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,686
    Why is it so?
    Is it so dog eat dog that folk cant see helping others to be the decent thing to do...
    Is it that they dont want the illegals, white trash or anyone who is not white to benefit from a free system?
    It just seems so mind numbingly wrong.
    How do folk approach free health care..
    Do they say the country cant afford it or that God will sort it out?...I am just curious how folk justify being against free health care.
    The only folk who benefit seem to be insurance exectutives and the paper pushers in the system....how much do they pull out of the system I wonder and could that money better used see a more compassionate health care system.

    Who loses if free health was adopted by USA?

    Alex
     
  10. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,889
    What puzzles me is one (out of many) objections of Americans is in simple terms "why should I pay for someone's else's health care?"

    But they take out insurance for other events. If they pay to insure your car and never use it you are paying for someone's else's car repairs

    Australia has about a 2% health care tax and more if you earn over a certain amount where it is considered you should take out private health insurance

    So you pay 2% tax plus more if earn over a certain amount OR you pay 2% tax plus your own health insurance

    Problem

    Private treatment has, I think, far to high copayments NOT covered by insurance

    On the plus side (sort of) for those paying private health care, a serious event will see them in public health care because very few private health care facilities have the range of equipment required

    Once stabilised sure move to private care

    So if America had a ?% of wage tax taken to cover universal health care (plus extra % over wage level) there is nothing to stop those who consider they need extra health care to take out there own cover

    One poor aspect of universal is overuse by patients and doctors. Doctors can be monitored. Little harder to do with patients but not impossible

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    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
  11. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,802
    The thing is, universal health care has been shown, time and again, to be cheaper overall than what we have now, in no small part because a single, centralized entity would have the bargaining power to help drive some of these ridiculous prices down. Case in point - a bag of IV Saline costs between 50 cents to a dollar to manufacture, yet it costs a patient over a hundred dollars in the hospital, before accounting for the costs to have a nurse put the IV itself in!

    This article is a bit dated, but:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/27/health/exploring-salines-secret-costs.html

    Provides a terrifying insight into just how fucked our health care billing system truly is.
     
  12. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,118
    Not "free" . single payer
    Who loses-----------that's an easy one
    We in the usa spent twice, per capita, what any other country does on health care.
    So----------look at the system and the players
    The members of the
    AHA,
    AMA,
    insurance conglomerates,
    pharmaceutical companies
    and
    several exotic vacation spots
    all stand to lose
    .......................................

    occasionally, someone screws up the paperwork, and I end up getting the bill
    once, for a cut on my hand, there was an item "suture material" price $49.00
    on another occasion, I was billed $ 2300.00 for a 10 minute tracheal endoscopy procedure.

    ............................................
    President Harry S. Truman proposed a system of public health insurance in his November 19, 1945, address. He envisioned a national system that would be open to all Americans, but would remain optional. Participants would pay monthly fees into the plan, which would cover the cost of any and all medical expenses that arose in a time of need. The government would pay for the cost of services rendered by any doctor who chose to join the program. In addition, the insurance plan would give cash to the policy holder to replace wages lost because of illness or injury. The proposal was quite popular with the public, but it was fiercely opposed by the Chamber of Commerce, the American Hospital Association, and the AMA, which denounced it as "socialism"
    These people can spend billions on lobbyist and pass the cost on to their consumers
    ..............................
     
  13. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    648
    "I stay in bed without realizing the bacteria I’ve inhaled is more lethal than the flu" - bad decision
    "I’m struggling financially and I’ve fallen behind on my ACA payments." - bad choices
    "My credit is awful." - bad choices
    "I have a massive, unpaid bill from a few years back when someone made international calls on my stolen phone." - which I apparently didn't have shut off immediately or contest the charges for, and probably should have had a prepaid plan, considering my other financial woes
    "She demands they do anything within their power to save me and puts up for the surgery, using her own credit." - her choice to make up for her child's bad choices
     
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,686
    She certainly does not derserve any compassion and clearly the system that caters more for the hangers on than patients most certainly is beyond critism.... And one day when you make bad choices be happy that your plight is your own doing.
    Alex
     
  15. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

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    648
    That is the point of personal responsibility. No one else to blame.
     
  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    4,686
    You hit my favorite words.
    Personal responsibilty is what folk give up when they live in a religion...in my view (meaning only an opinion).
    The reason i get worked up is I have seen terrible situations where folk do not get a fair go ...
    Once I was without compassion and really believed folk deserved their lot..but getting more experience with time I realised thete are people who have great difficulty in managing for various reasons. ..I feel compassion for them as no one seems to care that they dont have the ability to get by like us who are successful will do.
    Alex
     
  17. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    648
    Sin isn't considered personal responsibility?

    Compassion equals giving to charity and personally helping. Not really forcing others to.
     
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,686
    No the devil made them do it.

    I refer to statements like..

    "It is the will of God"
    "God works in mysterious ways"
    "Only God knows"

    That sort of thing.

    True.
    Alex
     
  19. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    648
    You don't know many Christians, do you?
    "The devil made me do it" is often the excuse of criminals.
    Most Christians believe the devil can only tempt, not compel.

    Why do none of your referred statements support your claim?
     
  20. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I find it interesting that anyone could believe in the devil let alone think that such an entity could tempt one.

    So what do they say ...I was tempted by the devil but I resisted...and what do they say if they commit as you call it sin...the devil tempted me and I unfortunately fell into sin...of course a criminal will just say...the devil made me do it.

    But seriously do you believe that there is a devil that temps humans to sin..

    I wont laugh honest..

    Which claim do you want me to support..if we are to get anywhere generalizations wont cut it.

    Which claim do you want me to back up, make a list if you wish and I will do my best to back up anything I claim.
    Alex
     
  21. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    648
    No, why do you ask?

    First thing you said in that post. http://www.sciforums.com/threads/a-sobering-read.160514/#post-3502413
     
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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  23. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

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