Oh for Pete's sake. I've had a few gin & tonics and was checking out the Religion forum before going to bed, and now I'm annoyed. In my opinion, anyone who wonders how a "loving" God could allow evil things to happen (and is hurt by it) is... well... PLEASE! And all this tripe about God's "plan"... Imagine this. You make a bunch of chess pieces and a board from scratch. It's a hell of a lot of effort. Then you call your friends to come over and play. When they get to your house, you say, "K, but I already mapped out the whole game, and I know the end result. Do exactly as I prescribe in this written procedure here. I haven't worked in any moves that would offend me. You have no choices, and I know everything that's gonna happen, but I've invited you here to play anyway. K, ready?" So your friends are like, what the f*ck am I here for then, if it's all been mapped out and I'm just playing out your plan for you? What's the point? For us the players and for you the originator, what the hell is the point? When you wrote it out, it was all about YOU. And if I play this game, I'm really just a pawn, and you're going to watch me f*ck up. WHAT'S THE POINT? And I ask YOU, long-suffereing bleeding heart pious brothers and sisters, what WOULD the point be? God (or whateeevvvverr you want to call Him), if He mapped it all out, if He had a Hand over it all, would have gone to an awful lot of trouble just to watch a play He wrote. Come the hell on. Even Einstein retracted his famous "God doesn't play dice". Yeah, He does. He doesn't know the outcome, and doesn't cut the offensive moves, and the Uncertainty Principle is a clue. 'Cause if He knew, and if He had to move in to cut the offensive moves, He wouldn't create the pieces and the board -- there'd be no purpose whatsoever in it. And, for me, the fact that He doesn't know, means there IS purpose.
I agree with that. What personal purpose is there to be a drone: someone just presses the start button and you go, exactly along the path prescribed to meet your predetermined end. As an American, this is how I tend to think... although I admit, I'm just another fucking number in the system and no matter how much I scream at the top of my voice, I always will be... the only way to fix that is to get rid of the system.
if your right pixel, why call it god. you just proved non-existence, see this thread a flawed thing cant be a god http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=42283
Wrong. Omniscience is not a requirement of God. Gods do not even need to be omnipotent or omnipresent. They simply need to be creators of the universe that have some sort of consciousness. God, if it exists, might be totally evil.
God knows the outcome Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! and we all have free will Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! sounds impossable well God is not a human He is God LOL get it? All Praise The Ancient of Days
I have not read the long matter of this thread But I know I am right and GOD is wrong. I welcome GOD to discuss this rightness in SCI FORUMS.
What has erk's reply got to do with my reply? are you asking erk about his post or are you asking me about my post???? All Praise The Ancient of Days
I had the same issue for years reguarding the omniscience/free will divergence. There is a way to wrap your head and heart around it. It takes some reconditioning however. It all starts with the following introduction: This is a courses in miracles. It is a required course. Only the time you take it is voluntary. Free will does not mean that you can establish the curriculum. It means only that you can elect what you want to take at a given time. The course does not aim at teaching the meaning of love, for that is beyond what can be taught. It does aim, however, at removing the blocks to the awareness of love's presence, which is your natural inheritance. The opposite of love is fear, but what is all-encompassing can have no opposite. This course can therefore be summed up very simply in this way: Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God. Hope this helps Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Hey bigal, You've asking for the first dozen pages in a 1000+ page text. Condensing the Course is bound to impart imperfect understanding. Not that I'm claiming to have this perfect understanding mind you. I'll give it a go anyway. As I see it, a miracle occurs whenever the veil of unreality is lifted and the truth of love is conveyed.
This quote was the first page introduction of A Course in Miracles. It is a 1000+page text that wholly answers your question of omniscience versus free will. Where the bible may be easily refuted the course is airtight. It does not depend of hearsay, but leads you to logical conclusions of the nature of reality. The course shows you exersizes to prove this reality to yourself. As I said it takes some restructuring of thinking. I haven't been able to read the whole of it yet. I thought with your paradox thread that the statement Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Would set your mind on other possibilities.
Regarding God being good or evil -- he doesn't need to be either of the two. In fact, I think he can't be either, at least in his "involvement" (lack of) with world events. In order for this world to make any sense at all, His involvement has to be neutral. (I believe that if a Creator exists, It must be "good" and yet totally impartial because it is so highly evolved -- but evolution and impartial benevolence is another thread.) A question for religious types: If He had a "plan", or if He got involved at all, or if He had special intentions set aside for humanity or humans, while at the same time we're only following His plan, does that mean millions are going to burn in hell forevermore for following His plan? 'Cause that would make Him nasty, wouldn't it? And for the God-fearing but non-religious: if you don't believe in hell -- if God mapped it all out, then is anyone really good or evil, or are they simply playing out the good/evil play God wrote? And for the atheists who say God can't exist because of all the evil in the world: Can't a Creator exist who allows free will, who just doesn't favour one person/group over another, lets humanity and humans make their choices, and let them face the consequences individually or collectively?
Okay, God exists right now, right with you. All God sees is the truth of who you are. God does not see the fantasy you live in because it is not what is real. You do not realize this because all you see a fantasy that keeps you from seeing. As you move away from the fantasy you see God with you. You often get glimpses of this truth in positive interactions with your brothers and sisters. You feel good when you make a connection with another soul. Then jump back in the fantasy that you are not connected.
RawThinkTank: I have not read the long matter of this thread But I know I am right and GOD is wrong. I welcome GOD to discuss this rightness in SCI FORUMS. ************* M*W: Ugh! That's what c20 thought he was doing!
I'm still not following. You're saying my world is a fantasy (conjured by me?), and by somehow (magically) "moving away" from the "fantasy" of my world, I can see God with me, but I can also find the "truth" in my positive interactions with my brothers and sisters, but then I lose the truth by jumping back into the "fantasy" of my world? ::scratches head::
pixel: Regarding God being good or evil -- he doesn't need to be either of the two. In fact, I think he can't be either, at least in his "involvement" (lack of) with world events. ************* M*W: If there was a creator god, he would take pride in his creation. There would be no confusion or obvious contradiction in the bible. People would get along, because we would have been created synergystically compatible. There would be no wars, of course, because we would get along, we would just all get along. There would be no famine in the world, because this world would be the perfect ecosystem for our human needs. There would be perfect altruism, since we would be treating others as ourselves. There would be no disease, because this is the perfect ecosystem in which we live and breathe. There would be no crime, because we would have been created to not be able to break with out ecosystem or society. Children would be educated by the village. Children would be in everyone's care and affection. ************* pixel: In order for this world to make any sense at all, His involvement has to be neutral. (I believe that if a Creator exists, It must be "good" and yet totally impartial because it is so highly evolved -- but evolution and impartial benevolence is another thread.) ************* M*W: This is true. The world the creator god made would only be for his pleasure, and he would not need get involved in any way because if this creator god was GOOD, he would have created the world to be good; therefore, not neededing his interference. ************* pixel: A question for religious types: If He had a "plan", or if He got involved at all, or if He had special intentions set aside for humanity or humans, while at the same time we're only following His plan, does that mean millions are going to burn in hell forevermore for following His plan? 'Cause that would make Him nasty, wouldn't it? ************* M*W: Yes, that would certainly make him to be some other deity than the creator god. A creator god would not create a hell. Why would there be a need for hell? A creator god could be the judge, jury and hangman, himself! He could smite us down in an instant if we went outside the 'box.' So, there would be absolutely NO need for a hell. Now, if this creator god was happy without our earthly behavior considering what he gave to us in our perfect environment, there would also be no need for an existential heaven. We would already be experiencing heaven in the life god created for us. ************* pixel: And for the God-fearing but non-religious: if you don't believe in hell -- if God mapped it all out, then is anyone really good or evil, or are they simply playing out the good/evil play God wrote? ************* M*W: Society is evil, because people wouldn't accept what the creator god created for us -- we wanted MORE, and we went outside the 'box' to get MORE. We weren't satisfied with our perfect ecosystem. ************* pixel: And for the atheists who say God can't exist because of all the evil in the world: Can't a Creator exist who allows free will, who just doesn't favour one person/group over another, lets humanity and humans make their choices, and let them face the consequences individually or collectively? ************* M*W: This would be too ambiguous for a creator god to do to his creation. All god wanted for us to do was to take care of our ecosystem and each other. God is not a religious creator. In other words, god doesn't believe in a god, nor does god go to any earthly church. The only religion we really have is to care for our ecosystem and each other, but religions were created by humans and that's where the great downfall started. We really don't have free will. What free will we do have must remain within the confines of our ecosystem and our altruistic treatment of our brothers and sisters. There would then be no consequences as this would be the greatest of all possible worlds.
Yeah, thats what I'm saying. You are constantly with God. As God is constantly with you. You are reminded of His presence when truely connect with others. The course calls this the Holy instant. The fantasy exists when you believe you are apart from God. How could you be apart from the infinite? You are part of His miracle. You rarely realize it. Me too.
