ALMA sees old galaxies before they merged. two ways to look back into the past?

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by nebel, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. nebel Valued Senior Member

    interesting idea moved over from the main amateur astronomy forum.
    There is no evidence that the universe as a whole is rotating, but any movement in whatever direction imaginary "prograde" or not, would generate a centrifugal force pushing outward, radially toward the future. but that universe, membrane moving through energytime #1, can feed the expansion anyway, from energy leftover from the BB.
    As far as time is concerned, mass has moved out of the centre, concentrated it was at the BB point in time.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
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  3. gamelord Registered Senior Member

    It makes no sense that the Universe is both 14.7 billion years old, and 40+ billion light years in radius.
    This would indicate that the Fabric of the universe has accelerated 3x faster than light speed.
    Either one of these theories is wrong. The law that nothing can accelerate faster than light speed must be wrong, or the idea the universe is only 14.7 billion years old must be wrong.
    I have often heard theories saying that "The Fabric of the Universe is the only thing that can accelerate faster than light speed."
    But what is the "Fabric of the Universe" exactly? Because it implies that the BB was not merely an explosion of Particles, but rather, an explosion of Fabric that the particles seem to reside in. If the Fabric is indeed a real substance, then, in order to have SuperLuminal Drive, all we need to is use the Fabric.

    Here is what BBC scientists have to say, and they mostly admit that they (and many other scientists) may be wrong, and I may be right.
    Even the name of the article is hubris. Because the article clearly states they are unsure and do not know the size of the universe.

    "Now comes the big key to our puzzle. The most redshifted light we can detect in the observable Universe suggests that light has reached us from galaxies that are 13.8 billion years old.

    Because this is the oldest light we have detected, that also gives us a measurement for the age of the Universe itself.

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    There are huge numbers of galaxies out there (Credit: NASA/ESA)

    But over the last 13.8 billion years, the Universe has been continually expanding – and at first it did so very rapidly. Taking that into account, astronomers have worked out that the galaxies right on the edge of the observable Universe, whose light has taken 13.8 billion years to reach us, must now be 46.5 billion light years away.

    One possibility is that, somewhere, a few of our calculations are not quite right

    That is our best measurement for the radius of the observable Universe. Doubling it, of course, gives the diameter: 93 billion light years.

    This figure rests on many other measurements and bits of science, and it is the culmination of centuries of work. But, as Casey notes, it is still a little rough.

    For one thing, given the complexity of some of the oldest galaxies we can detect, it is not clear how they were able to form so quickly after the Big Bang. One possibility is that, somewhere, a few of our calculations are not quite right.

    "If one of the rungs of the cosmic distance ladder is off by 10%, then everything's off by 10%, because they rely on each other," says Casey.
    No actually errors accumulate, usually exponentially. So if one calculation is off by 10% the the whole idea at the end of the day may end up being off by 70%, or 30%, depending on the methodologies used.

    The whole Universe is roughly 250 times as large as the observable Universe

    And where things get really complex is when we try to think about the Universe beyond that which is observable. The "whole" Universe, as it were. Depending on which theory of the shape of the Universe you prefer, the whole Universe could actually be finite or infinite.

    Recently, Mihran Vardanyan and colleagues at the University of Oxford in the UK analysed known data about objects in the observable Universe, to see if they could work out anything about the shape of the whole Universe.

    The result, after using computer algorithms to look for meaningful patterns in the data, was a new estimate. The whole Universe is at least 250 times as large as the observable Universe."​
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    I like the exponential function explanation. Even at 1% steady growth per year it would take the universe only 70 years to double in size. In 14.7 billion years the universe would have doubled in size 14.7 billion/70 times and I don't have the ability to compute the size on my computer.
    But it would be a staggering number.

    Consider that if we place 1 grain on the first square of a chessboard and double that for each square the total grains on the 64th square would be 2^64 - 1

    This is about 1,645 times the global production of wheat in 2014 (729,000,000 metric tons).[8]
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
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  7. nebel Valued Senior Member

    In the expanding membrane sphere model, only the expansion through time is displayed. and that gives a radius of 13,8 billion years, a diameter of 28 billion years, a circumference of 85 billion years, and leaves only 3/4 of the universe beyond our horizon. No matter how fast you go through space, or space itself expands, you go only one year at a time through time, he first dimension.
    The exponential growth, chessboard-like, is one way to have a big universe, in the per second growth time scenario, the universe doubled in the first seconds, but now grows only by 6.28 x 300 000 km per second, it is really getting flat. But then simplicity was a feature of the past, the old.
  8. nebel Valued Senior Member

    On this thread several opinions have been tabled why a pre-big bang condition might be infinite. a ) energytime.-- energy can not be created or destroyed, so it must be fundamental, energy like anything else can not exist without having time to do it's thing in, so time must be infinite, fundamental too. Time should have special space, non directional to exist in, call it timespace. Now we live in spacetime, if Einstein is right, but we might also call it mattertime, because at the BB some of the eternal energy converted into matter, which matters to us. b) gravity, a product of energy & matter, falls off at the inverse of the distance, so it never comes to zero, so it reaches into the indefinite future, and of course time with it. Energy was required to produce the BB, so it must have existed with gravity before that in one form or another, and still does.

    The 2 universal expansion ideas side by side are the Early Inflation theory, --big right away--, like the sausage model, and the chessboard suggestion where it does not increase much in the beginning but becomes a run away monster in the later, our time.
    The sphere expanding through time model, proposes a middle ground. The movement through is constant, one second at a time, and the same amount of increase in radius happened each second. That made the universe double in the first 2 seconds, but adds 0nly a 1/ 10^-36 each second now. the big increase is over, and it have happened as shown by high school level geometry.
  9. Hayden Registered Member

    But who concluded that these galaxies would merge?
  10. nebel Valued Senior Member

    sorry can not link, but if you search in December 2017 ALMA, there were several news stories on the moving galaxies. But the thread has moved from that questions into wider fields of look back time and time period. Alma is in the news again with looking at planets forming around stars.
  11. Hayden Registered Member

    My dear friend, if ALMA saw the galaxies before merging, that implies that galaxies were on a merging path at least. Has ALMA been able to capture the light post merging, or it is still awaited or merging itself is on course? Just asking.

    Our lifespan is too small a period for before merging and after merging light detection.
  12. nebel Valued Senior Member

    You are absolutely correct, The Milky Way and Andromeda are on a merging course too, to close in 4 billion years from now.
    I learned through this discussion that the images of the accomplished merger would have to travel even further than the ones we captured, continuing expansion being one reason , and we will not be able to see the same event coming from the other side , the long way around. Because the situation of the finished merger would be newer, having come after the approach we registered, would that picture not already have bypassed us? or are the pictures of the accomplished merger or bypass still in the pipeline?
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018 at 9:09 AM

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