Any real examples of formal logic necessary for solving scientific problems?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Speakpigeon, May 8, 2018.

  1. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    Are you also saying computing isn't science?

    Formal logic and reasoning about what programs "are" means there are formal means to prove programs run correctly, because the proof is mathematical and you can prove things, along the way proving that 'properly encoded' programs which satisfy all their loop invariants (and any others) are mathematical in nature. But of course they are, one of the founders of modern digital computers, Alan Turing, knew this better than most people.

    So what are you looking for? Bearing in mind that modern digital computers are doing a lot of science right now. Look at the LHC, say. Or climate science.
    What impact would you say the advent of 'correct' software has had on them?
     
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    And that does not apply to "solutions" in science. "Solutions" are not "proved" in that fashion.
    It is necessary for evaluating "solutions", isolating assumptions in research programs and hypotheses both failed and successful, and the construction as well as the operation of digital computers. All scientific inquiry to date has involved the first two, all modern scientific the third. You were handed examples in which the involvement was simple, explicitly labeled as "formal logic", and in your chosen notation. (Bell's Theorem, most obviously).

    It may be possible to do science without doing those things, but I don't see how - and the burden of argument etc is on you to show how: it's an unusual claim.
    Good lord - That's what I've been trying to get you to acknowledge. You are denying the direct implication of your own observation, now.
    Not in scientific research and reports. It's deductive, and rigorous.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
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  5. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    But that's not what I'm saying at all. Let's go with this:
    Archimedes' alleged bathtub "experiment." Both a math and a logic problem. But are they absolutely "necessary"? The experiment can obviously be successfully performed without knowing a damn thing about mathematics or logic, even conclusions can be drawn. But the maths and logic are essential for a meaningful analysis and appraisal.
     
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  7. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    Your ncatlab link is definitely interesting but I can't possibly digest something as complex as that just reading the thing. So, I'm looking for something with standard, or "classical", logic.

    Now, what are you on about with your point on "military science"?! You seem rather intent on making up trumped-up charges at every turn. If you're not interested in responding to the OP, you can go somewhere else.

    I'm asking an apparently simple question but it should be obvious to all here that the answer can only be complicated. Perhaps some forbearance is called for here?

    Thanks.
    EB
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You need this:
    In response to this:
    So: if you think it is possible to "solve scientific problems" (odd language) without evaluating the "solutions", isolating the assumptions in research programs and hypotheses both failed and successful, or employing a computer,
    what is your argument for that extraordinary claim?
     
  9. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    I wasn't claiming they were. I explaining my meaning. I'm looking for evidence either way.

    ???

    Could you remind me of those?!

    Claim?! What claim?

    You would need to explain yourself but, clearly, you're not here to explain anything, just to make what you think at "points". You don't seem to realise that if you make claim, and you do, you need to justify them. As it is, you're just wasting my time.

    Good to know but I think we can stop here. I already said that once, I should have followed my own advice. Thanks for indulging me.
    EB
     
  10. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    And Hoare logic isn't that something?
    Yes it is kind of obvious. It's complicated because you don't seem to understand the question you're asking.

    The simple answer to the question: is there at least one example of formal logic which is necessary for solving scientific problems is, yes there is when the problem involves writing software which must be error-free. I imagine most scientists would want to use software which is guaranteed to run correctly because formal logic has been applied. Hence such formal logic is both necessary to check the code is correct, and also is used to solve scientific problems as well as many engineering problems.

    Oh wait. Engineering is also a science.
     
  11. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    What claim?!
    Quotes, please.
    EB
     
  12. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    Might be time to give up on this one.
     
  13. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks. I'm convinced you're a very bright person. I couldn't possibly compete, here. Have a nice day.
    EB
     

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