Are you riding Jesus or are you elevating him?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Greatest I am, Feb 1, 2011.

  1. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    10,515
    such an immoral construct as your fate is in your own hands?

    the great escape

    run
    run from the truth
    run it will find you
    run
    run from the truth
    run
    it's behind you

    so obvious in your face...look away
    to find another day...not today
    just one more day to lie
    just one more day to vie
    just one more day to sit on the fence
    and pretend you'll never die
    look away and your dream will come true
    and your dream is a lie

    run
    run from the truth
    run
    it will find you
    run
    run from the truth
    run
    it's behind you

    what a beautiful mess we've made...look
    and our lives just got in the way...took
    so we'll wrap them in cellophane
    because nature is sure to wane
    we're better than that anyway
    who does God think he is?
    look away and your dream will come true
    and He'll leave you

    run
    run from the truth
    run
    it will find you
    run
    run from the truth
    run
    it's behind you
     
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  3. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    Hey, while we're doing poems - here's an excerpt from mine:

    “Oh please my good man, bring my daughter to me”,
    “She’s in hell”, he replied, “Oh no, that cannot be!”
    “She was thoughtful and loving, giving and kind”,
    “Indeed not a bad thought ever went through her mind.”
    “Oh tell me, do tell me, what could she have done?”
    “It’s all about God and she chose the wrong one”
     
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  5. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Ah. Some sense.

    Regards
    DL
     
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  7. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    "Heavens Ghetto, Where the first Stomach Rumblings Rose"




    Chief Kamachi.
     
  8. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    10,848



    Not bad ^_^ almost broken down into correct bars too, Could be a verse if slightly modified. (not saying it needs improvement just to fit into a hip hop bar sequence.



    Peace.
     
  9. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    10,515
    oh dear lord, not hip hop!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  10. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    10,515

    aw, how cute, a nursery rhyme. but incorrect. the spirit manifests without discrepancy. good spirit = good fruit, bad spirit = bad fruit. it's obvious even to children.

    it never ceases to amaze me how an atheist can be just as brainwashed by religion as a religious person. until i realize that your intentions are the same and you're both just using religion as a scapegoat. then it all makes sense.
     
  11. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    5,758
    Well, no but nevermind.

    Incoherent, meaningless statement.

    Another seemingly meaningless statement. clarification please.

    Huh? I took the typical monotheistic notion that one must believe in a specific god, (Yhwh, Jesus, Allah etc), or end up in hell and turned the entire concept into a, ultimately very long, poem from the perspective of a man in heaven who has found out that his daughter is in hell in accordance with common christian doctrine that it is faith, not works which give rise to eternal happiness.

    I am utterly unsure what any of your above waffle has to do with that.
     
  12. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    5,478
    because man has a tendancy to pidgeonhole god into a predescribed being that if not conformed to the religions particular doctrine, results in 'going to hell'
    this does not speak to gods intentions but to mans.(do as your told vs think for yourself)
    IOW 'going to hell' as man puts it just means if you don't do as they say you will end up in hell.
    God says listen to me, not man, and you will be good.
     
  13. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    5,758
    Where does it (whichever 'god' you're talking about) say that and in what manner has it said anything for us to listen to?

    By listening to you telling me what god says or doesn't say, am I not listening to a man instead of a god hence doing precisely that which you, (a man), just said that a god does not want me to do? All very contradictory.
     
  14. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    5,478
    'where does it say' irrelevant question..check any religious text..
    'what manner' is subjective,god will communicate differently dependant on what/how you listen, IOW i cannot tell you how god communicates to you, i can only share how i think he communicates to me.

    by listening to me express how/what i think about who/what god is,you are adding knowledge to your idea about who/what god is.
    This does not mean you should take my words as gospel,
    IOW you are to listen to me as a means to think for yourself, not to do as your told.
    what god wants for you is not the same as what god wants for me.

    if you were to question all believers about who/what god is, you would get a subjective answer based on their own experiences, you ask enough ppl sooner or later some one will explain it in a way that lines up with your own experiences.(you ask enough ppl and you will find god)
     
  15. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    5,758
    Curious. Now you seem to be arguing against yourself. You first spoke of men pigeonholing this god based upon scripture then proceed to tell me what I should do based upon you, (man), telling me what god wants by telling me to check scripture.

    It is on the basis of looking at scripture that theists have reached a conclusion of hell and the conclusion that one goes there through lack of belief/believing in false gods as opposed to being a matter of works performed during mortal existence - hence the reason for the poem.

    We all listen to communication the exact same way: With our ears.

    Incorrect, I am gaining 'knowledge' as to what you think a god does or does not want.

    What pompous stupidity. Needless to say, I was quite capable of "thinking for myself", long before you were born. This doesn't mean I should listen to you at all though - and that is an issue, especially when you contradict yourself.

    Again with the human speaking on behalf a god. On what basis should I take anything you say seriously? Why should I be under the impression that you have any clue whatsoever whether what a god wants for you is any different to what it would want from me?

    Of course because a 'god' is a such a meaningless concept that individuals can attach anything they want to it and nobody is any the wiser.
     
  16. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    5,478
    you asked 'where does it say?' how can i answer that without saying check scripture???
    and i said based on doctrine not scripture. doctrine doesn't always line up with scripture.

    ears only hear the words.the meanings of those words are defined by experience.
    what does ' thats cool' mean?
    just to hear those words does not communicate anything.

    true, but i am not telling you you will go to hell if you do not listen to me.

    thinking for yourself does not mean ignore what everyone else says.
    and you seem to be using the term 'listen to you' as 'obey you', that is not how i use the term.I use it as 'understand me' then make your choices.


    on the basis of how it applies to your life/experiences.


    the car wreck analogy is the best argument i have for this..
    different ppl see different aspects of the car wreck, just because their individual perspectives differ does not mean they are wrong, one must hear all perspectives to get an accurate assessment of the car wreck, same with god, one must hear all the perspectives about who/what god is to get an accurate idea of who/what god is.
    to discount my ideas about who/what god is, is either an attempt to opinionate your own ideas about a non-god or an irresponsible attempt to determine what/who god is.
    IOW don't ask if you don't want to know.
     
  17. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    10,515
    oh, a tragedy. it reminded me of one of those horrific nursery rhymes that i suppose are written to scare the bujeebers out of kids.

    what i said isn't meaningless; it's very straightforward, meaning that no one is getting duped by god.

    first of all, i know it's fiction but, the description of the daughter is not realistic. there is no one who has never had a bad thought since adam except jesus, even children.

    but secondly, and more importantly, we're all influenced spiritually. even you snake, and good spiritual influence manifests good, and bad spiritual influence manifests bad. it's just that easy.

    see, faith doesn't come from religion, and one (rather obviously) shouldn't have faith in religion. faith comes from god, and from the holy spirit. it's in the form of knowledge that you acquire through experience. faith is trust.
     
  18. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    5,758
    Sure, what is doctrine typically based upon?

    I never implied otherwise.

    I don't remember suggesting that you were.

    Completely unsure where you've got any of this from. I am asking you why I should listen to you at all, (as in why should I take anything that you might say regarding what gods do or do not want as being credible or based upon anything that reflects actual reality).

    One can hear all the perspectives concerning 'gods', but this says nothing as far as actual reality is concerned.

    What is 'god'? (Note that secondary and relational attributes are unacceptable because they do not answer the question).

    Thus far you keep telling me what such 'god' wants or does not want and how it acts or doesn't act but haven't told me what it is that I should recognise any ability on its part to want or do anything.

    -----

    I don't think any religious concepts should be put upon children, hence it was written for adults in order to help them apply reason to their ridiculous belief systems. Of course you might be one of the 'New Theists' who has discarded most of the bible as fiction including many of it's concepts, (hell etc). Clearly then it wouldn't apply to you. However, as statistics tend to show, a great many do.

    Take for instance: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_poll3.htm

    According to this, 39% of the American population are under the impression that if you don't believe in Jesus as saviour, you go to 'hell. 31% believe that hell is an actual place, (85% of born agains) - hence making my poem directly relevant.

    When asked "Have you personally known people you think will probably go to Hell?" 26% said: Yes because they don't have the right beliefs - again making my poem directly relevant in their case.

    What is that attempting to say and how would you know?

    1. It depends what you mean by "bad thought". If you mean something like an angry thought then Jesus is not exempt, (there are various times in the NT he displays such)

    2. I think you're being overly pedantic. The point is that the father recognises his daughter as being a person who spent a life doing great works, being nice and kind and loving but is burning in agony regardless to that because 'she believed in the wrong god' - it is focused on the works vs grace through faith issue.

    Unfortunately I do not see the word as having any actual meaning hence I can't really address it.

    This seems to just be a ridiculous way of saying that bad physical actions manifests bad physical results and good physical actions manifest good physical results. I'm unsure where comes all this obscure hocum about 'spiritual influences'.

    A thoroughly baseless claim and not at all even remotely viable. If 'faith comes from god and some other undefined entity' then you wouldn't expect so many contradictory faiths. It is vastly more plausible and rational to recognise that 'faith' comes very much from humans, not an immaterial thing in the clouds.
     
  19. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    3,015
    Good posts, Snakelord, and other antiWorders.

    For some serious fun:

    THE WORD, THE LEANINGS, AND THE GLEANINGS Where in the woe is Purgatory’s bane? Purgatory’s on Venus, where sulfurs rain. Where in the heck is that deep Hell of pain? Hell’s found in the sun’s heart, oh, hot burning pain! Where in the name of Heaven is Paradisea? Of Heaven’s site, no one has any idea. Really now, where’s Heaven, one and the same? It’s the world’s best kept secret: Earth is its name! Yes, that’s said, but truly, where is the stead? I must tell of them that they’re only read… of those places spent after we are dead? It’s written of words that language bred. ‘Twas hope-ward(s) that invented all that was said? ‘Twas these that were signed for anything divine [“said”].
     
  20. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    i don't think religious concepts should be put upon anyone. i wish we were FREE to LIVE, but we are clearly not. we are enslaved until we die by lots of things and religion is just one of them.

    the bible in many ways depicts and describes the story of my life, and my life is not fiction.

    these stats are irrelevant to me, and i wish they were to you as well. that's the point i'm trying to make in regards to your religious influence.



    i know because i've lived it, and what i'm attempting to say is that there is no trick, there is no catch, there is no scapegoat. there is only good and evil, and it is up to you to live through it, know it, recognize it, and act accordingly. to seek the truth is your responsibility alone.



    no, i mean thoughts that are inappropriate or incorrect according to truth.

    it's focused on inaccuracy, which is fine when it's a work of fiction.



    you know what it means or we wouldn't be having this discussion. it's something you can't see, that is not tangible, but influences you none the less. like gravity.



    it really has more to do with thoughts and intent rather than actions, but you get the concept. i know we're influenced by spirits. you don't. fine.



    sure trust is a human trait, but not exclusively. why do you trust who and what you trust?

    people who trust in religion are obviously fools, are they not? no, they're not getting off that easy and neither are you. that's why i brought up intentions and made a comparison between theirs and yours.

    practicing a religion is a cheap substitute for having a relationship with god. it's easier i suppose, because it's superficial and of the world, and god is not. being indoctrinated is just passing the buck don't you think? it seems like you're doing the same thing, you're just sitting on the other side of the table from them is all.

    the way the bible puts it, is that it refers to the church as the bride of christ, and the relationship between god and these people as a marriage, which of course is symbolic of communion, which is a holistic union for life, that's based on love and trust. it refers to religion as a whore, or what you might say is a cheap substitute for a wife. do you understand that analogy? do you understand my comparison?
     
  21. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    3,015
    It was once 'known' that evils spirits caused physical ills, but then bacteria and viruses were discovered, by those who went beyond pronouncements and mystery.

    Now some still have it that mental ills, including those called 'sins', are caused by evil spirits, but then brain chemistry going awry was discovered, both neurologically and from one being raised poorly or going in with bad guys and grooving one's brain wiring on that bad behavior.

    Human mammals were ever and are still scared by ghosts.

    SHAKESPEARE HAD THE GENERAL IDEA: Such tricks hath strong imagination, that if it would but apprehend some joy, it comprehends some bringer of that joy; or in the night, imagining some fear, how easy is a bush supposed a bear!
     
  22. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    incorrect thoughts produce incorrect physical manifestations and incorrect physical manifestations produce incorrect thoughts. not sure which came first, the chicken or the egg, but i do know that incorrect = sin.

    i have interacted with ghosts and with other spirits, and when you do, you know. it's not always as obvious as some of my experiences have been i'll grant you. it's also been brought to my attention on this forum that the implications of spiritual experiences like that scare some people so much that they'd rather believe they're insane or sick. :shrug:
     
  23. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    I can agree with that.

    This is a bit dramatic but ok. For what it's worth, while you're feeling depressed; you're really just a home and meal for bacteria.

    As far as the poem goes, they can't be because it is precisely those stats that make it relevant.

    Unlike theists, I don't see the universe in such black and white terms. It's not "only good and evil" but a vast rainbow of points in-between two human defined poles. There are things that are 'good', things that are great, amazing, not so good, pretty bad, bloody awful, downright evil and so on and so forth. And why you have hinged specifically on this and said it's all there is is somewhat beyond me. There are things that do not fit into a moral classification.

    I don't see how having a thought that isn't factual can be regarded as a "bad thought" as opposed to a thought that isn't factual. I am further unsure what you even mean by 'inappropriate'. Inappropriate to what?

    There is no valid reason to take your statement regarding accuracy or inaccuracy as valid - unless you make claim to knowing something about the reality, (or otherwise), of an 'afterlife'. The poem addresses those who view such thing in a certain way.

    I don't even know what your 'spiritual' word means to be able to discern whether it could possibly be tangible or influence anything which does not apply to 'gravity' which is well explained, pretty well understood and a necessary component to understanding the universe.

    Sound inductive reasoning; I have found reason to trust them through continual and consistent observation.

    Yes well pretty much all theists make claims to 'having relationships' but never manage to explain that term in any coherent, meaningful way.
     

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