Atheis church congregation raising money
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In other words, you just made up more bs about atheists, just like you do all the other times.
Satanists believe in Satan, who is a Christian demigod.
Mazulu
More idiocy. Satan is a god, a fallen angel of the Christian type who once served at the right hand of your god. Satan is an entity in the Christian pantheon just like Loki is a part of the Norse pantheon. So, no, Satanists are not Atheist at all. The rest of your idiotic post is therefore irrelevant, pure vitriolic offensive verbal diarrhea.
From your own cite
And while one or two atheistic Satanist cults exist(as a few atheistic Christian cults exist), the Satanists are anti-Christian and Atheists reject their god just like we do yours. Another false attack on Atheists from the intellectually challenged. "Thou shalt not bear false witness" means nothing to you? It's one of the Big Ten, you know.
Grumpy
More idiocy. Satan is a god, a fallen angel of the Christian type who once served at the right hand of your god. Satan is an entity in the Christian pantheon just like Loki is a part of the Norse pantheon. So, no, Satanists are not Atheist at all. The rest of your idiotic post is therefore irrelevant, pure vitriolic offensive verbal diarrhea.
From your own cite
And while one or two atheistic Satanist cults exist(as a few atheistic Christian cults exist), the Satanists are anti-Christian and Atheists reject their god just like we do yours. Another false attack on Atheists from the intellectually challenged. "Thou shalt not bear false witness" means nothing to you? It's one of the Big Ten, you know.
Grumpy
No, he's actually right for once. The Church of Satan, which composes the majority of people who self-describe as Satanists, does not believe that Satan is a real figure. They're, more or less, Crowleyite occultism + Ayn Rand, and they are explicitly atheistic. They use the symbolism of Satan as exactly that--a symbol. An emblem of their path in opposition to established Christian society. And sometimes perhaps a tool for focusing their consciousness in ritual, as most non-theistic occultists do. But they do not believe that the Christian God, or Satan for that matter, are any other than figments of the collective imagination.
Theistic Satanism, which does hold that Satan is a real being in the context of a Judeo-Christian pantheon, comprises a distinct minority among Satanists. A very small minority.
To simplify: he is correct that LaVeyan Satanism, the dominant form of Satanism, is atheistic. But he is incorrect in saying that all atheists are Satanists.
No, it is the point. You are using the fact that LaVeyan Satanism is atheistic to lump all atheists into that category. Which is intended to demonize atheists and atheism, given your explicitly Christian viewpoints. And it shows a distinct lack of research or knowledge on your part.
What's wrong with sexy girls and orgies? For starters.
What's wrong with drugs, if you use them responsibly?
And more to the point, do you know anything about the actual Church of Satan? Otherwise, you're just talking out your ass. They're more than just atheistic. There's a complex system of beliefs and practices that accompany it.
What's wrong with sexy girls and orgies? They are animalistic. My point was that it's a slippery slope for atheists. First, they make a nice church of non-believers. Then, a bunch of sexy girls show up (like they do in all churches). Then, the members start feeling that vibe; but without a spiritual context, it turns into an orgy. Then a goat shows up... A month later, it's satanism. Just watch! You'll see.
That sounds pretty good, while the rest of us are having fun with sexy girls and goats, Mazulu will be circle jerking with Joel Osteen and the Ass-ended Master-bators.
And? Sometimes it's fine to give into your animal urges. They are a part of you, because you are human and humans are animals. To deny those urges is to deny your full humanity.
You think sex, even group sex, can't have a spiritual meaning or purpose? You'd be incredibly wrong.
Several leaps of logic that just do not add up. What do goats have to do with any of this? Why does wanton sexual activity with other people lead to bestiality? What does that have to do with Satanism? What do orgies, for that matter, have to do with Satanism?
You are just calling the archaic revival a bad name. This is how religion used to be practiced and still is by many primitive tribes.
Hapsburg
If there is a "complex system of beliefs" they are by definition not Atheists(with a capital A). All that makes an Atheist is the COMPLETE LACK of "a complex system of beliefs". I don't even believe that god(any of thousands)doesn't exist(I have no trouble admitting that I don't know, but then, neither does anyone else), I just don't believe any I've heard described, so far. There is one "sect" that is atheistic, but if your are worshiping Satan, you are not an Atheist, you're just a Theist who traded gods, getting rid of old , stiff and judgemental for hedonistic, corrupt but more fun(for a while, if sources are true). With the idiocy of the attacks from these threads on Atheists, I'm going to insist on being a stickler for accurate definitions and the only operative definition of an Atheist is one who LACKS A BELIEF in any god, period. Whatever the properties of the entity you have named your church after, Satan is still an entity, you are still worshiping and that isn't Atheism. That's why an Atheist Church is oxymoronic, the Unitarians will welcome these guys with open arms(a religious sect of Christianity where belief is optional and most don't). I can just see the first meeting "Hi, I don't believe in god", "Hi, me neither, see you next week." It's like non-stamp collectors having a hobby club.
Grumpy
If there is a "complex system of beliefs" they are by definition not Atheists(with a capital A). All that makes an Atheist is the COMPLETE LACK of "a complex system of beliefs". I don't even believe that god(any of thousands)doesn't exist(I have no trouble admitting that I don't know, but then, neither does anyone else), I just don't believe any I've heard described, so far. There is one "sect" that is atheistic, but if your are worshiping Satan, you are not an Atheist, you're just a Theist who traded gods, getting rid of old , stiff and judgemental for hedonistic, corrupt but more fun(for a while, if sources are true). With the idiocy of the attacks from these threads on Atheists, I'm going to insist on being a stickler for accurate definitions and the only operative definition of an Atheist is one who LACKS A BELIEF in any god, period. Whatever the properties of the entity you have named your church after, Satan is still an entity, you are still worshiping and that isn't Atheism. That's why an Atheist Church is oxymoronic, the Unitarians will welcome these guys with open arms(a religious sect of Christianity where belief is optional and most don't). I can just see the first meeting "Hi, I don't believe in god", "Hi, me neither, see you next week." It's like non-stamp collectors having a hobby club.
Grumpy
Hapsburg
If there is a "complex system of beliefs" they are by definition not Atheists(with a capital A). All that makes an Atheist is the COMPLETE LACK of "a complex system of beliefs". I don't even believe that god(any of thousands)doesn't exist(I have no trouble admitting that I don't know, but then, neither does anyone else), I just don't believe any I've heard described, so far. There is one "sect" that is atheistic, but if your are worshiping Satan, you are not an Atheist, you're just a Theist who traded gods, getting rid of old , stiff and judgemental for hedonistic, corrupt but more fun(for a while, if sources are true). With the idiocy of the attacks from these threads on Atheists, I'm going to insist on being a stickler for accurate definitions and the only operative definition of an Atheist is one who LACKS A BELIEF in any god, period. Whatever the properties of the entity you have named your church after, Satan is still an entity, you are still worshiping and that isn't Atheism. That's why an Atheist Church is oxymoronic, the Unitarians will welcome these guys with open arms(a religious sect of Christianity where belief is optional and most don't). I can just see the first meeting "Hi, I don't believe in god", "Hi, me neither, see you next week." It's like non-stamp collectors having a hobby club.
Grumpy
Wait till Satan shows up, with some skanitly clad women, some cocaine, and a goat! Mark my words! You'll see!
Ted Haggard isn't invited.
That's not what the definition of atheism is. Atheism is just the lack of belief in deity. Religion, spiritualism, and occultism are whole different ballgames--none of which necessarily require theism. Religion and theism are separate phenomena; they happen to intersect often, but this isn't a necessary and contingent facet of either. There are non-theistic religions (certain forms of Buddhism, Jainism, certain kinds of Western Occultism), and there are irreligious forms of theism (deism, pantheism).
That's what you're not getting. Satanists do not literally believe Satan to be real, nor do they worship Satan. They use the figure, the icon of Satan as a tool for their own purposes.
Their own nefarious purposes.:mufc:
Hapsburg
And my point was that the lack of belief is ALL an Atheist is, there are no additional "complex system of beliefs" to Atheism. So if you have a "complex system of beliefs", you can not be described as an Atheist, you may be an Atheist, but the "complex system of beliefs" does not arise from Atheism, it comes from a different source. Satanism grew out of Christianity, not Atheism. He's just another god to me, another invention of man's imagination, IMHO. Apologetics can tie a Gordian Knot, but the sword of reason cuts clean through. Satanism is not Atheism.
Grumpy
And my point was that the lack of belief is ALL an Atheist is, there are no additional "complex system of beliefs" to Atheism. So if you have a "complex system of beliefs", you can not be described as an Atheist, you may be an Atheist, but the "complex system of beliefs" does not arise from Atheism, it comes from a different source. Satanism grew out of Christianity, not Atheism. He's just another god to me, another invention of man's imagination, IMHO. Apologetics can tie a Gordian Knot, but the sword of reason cuts clean through. Satanism is not Atheism.
Grumpy
And you would be wrong. Atheism as a thing in-itself is limited in scope to the question of whether or not a god or gods exist(s). It is not a general 'lack of belief', it is specifically the lack of belief in deity. As a philosophical or theological position, that is all it concerns. Individual atheists can attach to themselves all kinds of other beliefs and opinions. An atheist can describe themselves as an atheist regardless of any other beliefs or religious affiliations they might have, because that's what their position is. This really isn't that difficult to understand. Regardless of the source of their other beliefs, their theological position is still non-theistic; ergo, they are atheists.
Exactly. Buddhists could be called atheists, really.
Edit: (sorry, just noticed you made this point earlier.)
Certain forms of Buddhism, yes. The core teaching of Buddhism flat-out don't take position on the subject, leaving it to the individual. We can see a considerable variety of ideas on the matter. Early Buddhism was still largely framed in that North Indian context, and recognisably Hindu deities are mentioned in its early texts. Though on the whole it viewed deities as irrelevant to the Eightfold Path. You can believe in them, sure, but it doesn't matter in the end since the goal is to break the cycle of reincarnation.
But as it spread to other parts of Asia, Buddhism adapted to the local religious landscape. Part of its adaptation to new cultures in order to spread core Buddhist thought. Traditional gods and ancestor spirits and whatnot were readily integrated into these forms of Buddhism.
Which isn't to say that the non-theistic forms aren't significant. They are; it's just that it would be technically incorrect to attribute the whole of Buddhism to the nontheistic schools of thought.
Hapsburg
And again you miss my point, that is ALL that Atheism is. There are no other beliefs, there are no precepts and the only thing you know about a person who is an Atheist is that he doesn't believe in deities(which I personally and many other Atheists define as ANY supernatural or superstitious claim). Communists were atheistic(technically), but they were Communists, their god was the state. I'm an Atheist concerning Communism even though the state is not a deity in the normal sense. Satanists may apologize away the fact that Satan is a supernatural entity straight out of the Christian pantheon, but the worship of that entity, the precepts, rituals and philosophy are not Atheist in origin, they are not Atheists, they are Satanists. It may technically be atheistic(though I don't buy it), but they are not Atheists. Atheism has no precepts, it has no rituals, it has no beliefs, it is simply the lack of belief in the subset of all beliefs that includes a supernatural entity. When you described them as having a "complex system of beliefs" you were not describing Atheists, you were describing Satanists. And that was my point. Get it?
Communists are technically atheistic, but that's only because the entity they worship is not a deity, they have a complex system of beliefs. They are theistic in that they worship an entity(the state). That is not Atheism.
Satanists have a complex system of beliefs and therefore their atheism is only technical, they are not Atheists, who have no such system of beliefs. And Satan is a Christian, supernatural entity, I don't know how you think you can get around that with apologetics, it doesn't pass the giggle test.
I am an Atheist, but that tells you nothing about any beliefs I do have, it just tells you the subset of all beliefs I definitely do not accept. One of them is Satan.
Grumpy
And again you miss my point, that is ALL that Atheism is. There are no other beliefs, there are no precepts and the only thing you know about a person who is an Atheist is that he doesn't believe in deities(which I personally and many other Atheists define as ANY supernatural or superstitious claim). Communists were atheistic(technically), but they were Communists, their god was the state. I'm an Atheist concerning Communism even though the state is not a deity in the normal sense. Satanists may apologize away the fact that Satan is a supernatural entity straight out of the Christian pantheon, but the worship of that entity, the precepts, rituals and philosophy are not Atheist in origin, they are not Atheists, they are Satanists. It may technically be atheistic(though I don't buy it), but they are not Atheists. Atheism has no precepts, it has no rituals, it has no beliefs, it is simply the lack of belief in the subset of all beliefs that includes a supernatural entity. When you described them as having a "complex system of beliefs" you were not describing Atheists, you were describing Satanists. And that was my point. Get it?
Communists are technically atheistic, but that's only because the entity they worship is not a deity, they have a complex system of beliefs. They are theistic in that they worship an entity(the state). That is not Atheism.
Satanists have a complex system of beliefs and therefore their atheism is only technical, they are not Atheists, who have no such system of beliefs. And Satan is a Christian, supernatural entity, I don't know how you think you can get around that with apologetics, it doesn't pass the giggle test.
I am an Atheist, but that tells you nothing about any beliefs I do have, it just tells you the subset of all beliefs I definitely do not accept. One of them is Satan.
Grumpy
Relating to the OP:
There are a number of secular organizations throughout the U.S., and worldwide, who have achieved extremely positive results in terms of charity, and social outreach programs. This could very well turn out the same way. The fact that this group isn’t assembling to worship an invisible being that may or may not exist, might indicate that its main focus will be on building friendships with like-minded folks, and supporting local communities. Time will tell, I guess.
There are a number of secular organizations throughout the U.S., and worldwide, who have achieved extremely positive results in terms of charity, and social outreach programs. This could very well turn out the same way. The fact that this group isn’t assembling to worship an invisible being that may or may not exist, might indicate that its main focus will be on building friendships with like-minded folks, and supporting local communities. Time will tell, I guess.