Atheis church congregation raising money

Grumpy said:
And again you miss my point, that is ALL that Atheism is.
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Our local theists don't get it. Theism has driven them to see people as belonging to a group. Either you are with our group or you are a rival group. Atheists are not only in a club, they are in the wrong club. If the name atheist is associated with some other group, they think that means other atheists have some affinity towards them. That's a major problem with religion, it divides people.
 
Hapsburg

Thinking about the background of attacks on Atheists made me realize that terms and concepts have been abused and hijacked in this discussion(and on the other "Blame Atheism" threads), so here are a few clarifications.

The attacks started with blaming Atheism for the evils of Communism. Communism is atheistic in that it rejects the supernatural god in favor of the man made one of the state. That is not Atheism, which is simply a lack of god belief, there is no precept in Atheism which says you need a replacement for the god you don't accept, is there? Theists think there is. They think if you reject their god you replace that god with another(er...Satan). The theistic mindset cannot conceive of a person not needing a god of one sort or another. And you aren't helping to straighten them out on this fallacy. Satanism, like Communism may be atheistic(I'll take your word for it), but Satanists are not Atheists, they are atheistic and the difference is important to this particular discussion. Buddhists are atheistic(their "object of reverence" is not supernatural), but they are not Atheists, they are Buddhists. Satanists also have an "object of reverence", Satan. And Satan is straight out of Christian theology. Atheists have no "object of reverence" at all. And that is the important point in this discussion. A church is a gathering of like minded people to contemplate their "object of reverence", ergo an Atheist church is an oxymoron(in answer to the OP).

Maybe a better word would be Skepticism, but that word has been hijacked by Climate Change Skeptics(et al), who are not actually skeptics, they are deniers of the facts for political/religious purposes. The problem is that your position confuses the low intellect posters so blaming Atheists for the evils of the religion of Communism is easier for them. It is straightening out these idiocies that is my goal here, not an argument on the minutia of philosophical beliefs. Communism was bad not because it lacked belief in deities, it was the precepts of Communism that led to the abuses of the people, but theists get hung up on the atheistic component and seem incapable of further thought on the subject. Providing that further thought is what I am trying to do. So being accurate in our descriptions and avoiding convoluted apologia is imperative. Taking a look back over the things posted in this and the other threads where religionists have blamed Atheists for all sorts of atrocities and demonized them using Satan as if he were an Atheist icon and you will see that you are muddying the waters as far as getting them to an understanding of their error here. A philosophical discussion can deal with these subtleties if all are informed, but we're dealing with deep non-understanding of the basics in this thread.

Grumpy:cool:
 
spidergoat said:
Our local theists don't get it. Theism has driven them to see people as belonging to a group. Either you are with our group or you are a rival group. Atheists are not only in a club, they are in the wrong club. If the name atheist is associated with some other group, they think that means other atheists have some affinity towards them. That's a major problem with religion, it divides people.
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I can add to your concern : Homosexuality , Most homosexuals are atheists , homosexuality is associated with with immorality.
Homosexuals definitively will gather at the Atheist church ,
Think after you say I dont believe in anything , what is left to talk about ====== social life and who are the one who are concerned about social life === Homosexuals.
 
Hapsburg said:
The Church of Satan, which composes the majority of people who self-describe as Satanists, does not believe that Satan is a real figure.
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The Church of Satan still exists? It had a brief wave of popularity/notoriety in the 1960's, but was always tiny and didn't seem to last very long. (The media loved it though.)

To simplify: he is correct that LaVeyan Satanism, the dominant form of Satanism, is atheistic.
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One of my university friends, back in the day, went to high-school with Anton LaVey's daughter. He met Anton socially in everyday life. His impression was that Anton didn't seem to really believe in his Satanism all that much and was mostly in it for the publicity. He sold lots of copies of his Satanic Bible. Anton was actually a pretty normal guy when he wasn't vamping for reporters.

I've always been kind of sympathetic to the Satan figure of myth myself. That has nothing to do with the so-called Church of Satan.

My sympathy for Satan developed as a result of many internet encounters with Christians preaching hell-fire and eternal torture.

There was this one old lady, a sweet senior citizen most of the time, who usually preached spirituality, heart and God's love.

But she also loved to seek out the visions of hell reported by various Catholic saints and ecstatics, and she would quote these writers at length about how sinners would be boiled alive for eternity, about how their flesh would slough off, about how they screamed and screamed and screamed for mercy... and how Jesus would walk on, refusing to hear them.

She obviously loved it and took an almost sexual pleasure in imagining other people's excruciating never-ending pain. Then she would revert once again to writing about Jesus and God being the essence of love and would tell people like me that we needed to 'Open our Hearts'.

I found that juxtiposition of love and sadism to be absolutely and totally bizarre.

And the idea entered my head that if God tortures people for eternity, with no compassion at all for their suffering, then God is indistinguishable from Satan. They are essentially one and the same.

And then the further idea entered my head that if Satan was the one angel that had enough courage and enough moral integrity to say 'No!', even when he knew that his rebellion against the hideous omnipotent monster of damnation was doomed inevitably to failure, that Satan may well be the most noble figure in the entire myth. Satan's arguably the one and only figure in the myth who is truly good.

I can understand how small groups of people in medieval times might have had similar ideas to my own and may have actually honored Satan in secret. Maybe some people still do today.
 
arauca

I can add to your concern : Homosexuality , Most homosexuals are atheists , homosexuality is associated with with immorality.
Homosexuals definitively will gather at the Atheist church ,
Think after you say I dont believe in anything , what is left to talk about ====== social life and who are the one who are concerned about social life === Homosexuals.
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Ah, I knew I could count on you to drive home the point I was trying to make. Idiocy and bigotry in just a few sentences. Classy.

Most homosexuals are religious, in the same proportions as heteros. Some homosexuals are driven from their churches by religious bigotry, but few go straight to Atheism, they seek out more enlightened congregations. And they are not Atheists because they are homosexual, nor are they homosexual because they are Atheists, there is no correlation. Most homosexuals until just recently stayed in the closet and in the pews. You probably sat right next to them without even getting any cooties on you. And most of the homosexuals I've met in my life are much better people than most of the Christians I have met, so what's the problem?

As to the immorality, it's not sourced from Jesus. He healed the Roman Centurion's pais(beloved servant)who was his homosexual lover(a common practice in Roman and Greek armies). Instead of condemning his relationship and love, he praised his faith. In fact, Jesus did not condemn homosexuality at all.

Even the condemnations in the Old Testament were not about homosexual relationships, it was about temple prostitutes of the religion of Ba'al, the Golden Calf of the Ten commandments story. The people returned to their old religion while Moses was on the mountain. Sodom's sin was a lack of hospitality, trying to force their public orgies on visitors who were not of their faith, public mandatory orgies being a ritual of that faith. Funny how it didn't matter what they did to his virgin daughters. It wasn't about sex, per se, it was the struggle between the new Jewish religion and the old religion of Ba'al. Remember, David loved Jonathon with a love that surpassed his love for any woman(he had numerous wives). David was a bi-sexual, Jonathan was a homosexual. And you guys revere David, the irony is delicious.

Grumpy:cool:
 
arauca said:
Yes , there is a service , then there comes the ( information spreading gossip ?
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Yep. They certainly don't talk about religion. What else is there to talk about? Their social life. They're much worse than any gays I have met. You want to get rid of immorality, get rid of the church ladies.
 
gmilam said:
Reference please. My personal observations lead me to a different conclusion. (Granted, I've never really thought about any correlation between the two.)
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Is just my own opinion,, What are going yo pray No god , no god , no god , does this not sound stupid . You don't believe so you don't believe , Ho cares . If there is no god for you , so there is non , When you say there is non , that is the end . You can not come up with a prayer if there is non.
 
arauca said:
Is just my own opinion,, What are going yo pray No god , no god , no god , does this not sound stupid . You don't believe so you don't believe , Ho cares . If there is no god for you , so there is non , When you say there is non , that is the end . You can not come up with a prayer if there is non.
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I questioned your claim was that most homosexuals are atheist. Your response is incoherent.
 
Grumpy said:
arauca



Ah, I knew I could count on you to drive home the point I was trying to make. Idiocy and bigotry in just a few sentences. Classy.

Big profound word " idiocy , bigotry " Sure you are a open minded person , until you are subjected to a test .
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Most homosexuals are religious, in the same proportions as heteros. Some homosexuals are driven from their churches by religious bigotry, but few go straight to Atheism, they seek out more enlightened congregations. And they are not Atheists because they are homosexual, nor are they homosexual because they are Atheists, there is no correlation. Most homosexuals until just recently stayed in the closet and in the pews. You probably sat right next to them without even getting any cooties on you. And most of the homosexuals I've met in my life are much better people than most of the Christians I have met, so what's the problem?

Interesting . Yo speak for them as if you know , and you know the statistics . If this forum or other forum that I have been on . For me atheist expressed them selves as atheists they expressed themselves as non believer , I don' know if it is an expression of bitterness because the bible condemns homosexuality or by negating god makes them not to feel guilty because acting unnatural in their sexual behavior
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As to the immorality, it's not sourced from Jesus. He healed the Roman Centurion's pais(beloved servant)who was his homosexual lover(a common practice in Roman and Greek armies). Instead of condemning his relationship and love, he praised his faith. In fact, Jesus did not condemn homosexuality at all.

Now you are creation your own interpretation . and justifying your action . I did the same thing, when I was married and had my girlfriend on the side, ( David had several wives )

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Even the condemnations in the Old Testament were not about homosexual relationships, it was about temple prostitutes of the religion of Ba'al, the Golden Calf of the Ten commandments story. The people returned to their old religion while Moses was on the mountain. Sodom's sin was a lack of hospitality, trying to force their public orgies on visitors who were not of their faith, public mandatory orgies being a ritual of that faith. Funny how it didn't matter what they did to his virgin daughters. It wasn't about sex, per se, it was the struggle between the new Jewish religion and the old religion of Ba'al. Remember, David loved Jonathon with a love that surpassed his love for any woman(he had numerous wives). David was a bi-sexual, Jonathan was a homosexual. And you guys revere David, the irony is delicious.


Grumpy:cool:
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Man , I understand your father was a Baptist minister and you have learned a lot from the bible . But here you are extrapolating into the unknown and calling it a fact . Perhaps in those times people were not as perverted , but we measure them with them with our own immoral view of the present
 
arauca said:
I can add to your concern : Homosexuality , Most homosexuals are atheists , homosexuality is associated with with immorality.
Homosexuals definitively will gather at the Atheist church ,
Think after you say I dont believe in anything , what is left to talk about ====== social life and who are the one who are concerned about social life === Homosexuals.
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Careful, you are creating the impression that ignorance and religiosity are synonymous.
 
spidergoat said:
Careful, you are creating the impression that ignorance and religiosity are synonymous.
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Maybe there is something in human nature that loves POWER, control and the mercy and orderliness that it seems to bring. To Christians, power comes from God and Satan; it polarizes their world view and makes things simpler to understand. To the UFO enthusiasts, the aliens have vast technological power, while the government has the power to eclipse it with secrecy. Atheists find power in science in that science is always right; but it is at the costly expense of imagination; with atheism, you have to think in terms of facts, a vast many facts are bad news. I almost believe that the solution is to let people have their beliefs, but be ready to put the fire out when their differences start to rub, spark and catch fire.
 
billvon said:
Yep. They certainly don't talk about religion. What else is there to talk about? Their social life. They're much worse than any gays I have met. You want to get rid of immorality, get rid of the church ladies.
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Saturday night show is out.
 
arauca

Big profound word " idiocy , bigotry " Sure you are a open minded person , until you are subjected to a test .
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What has it got to do with open mindedness to point and laugh at idiocy and to oppose bigotry? Saying Homosexuals are all Atheists IS idiotic. Most are as religious as anyone else. And condemning them for what they are is bigotry. If you don't like it pointed out, stop posting idiocy and bigotry. You expose your bigotry with almost every post.

Yo speak for them as if you know , and you know the statistics
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Of course. Because I do.

I don' know if it is an expression of bitterness because the bible condemns homosexuality or by negating god makes them not to feel guilty because acting unnatural in their sexual behavior
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"Roy and Silo (born 1987) are Chinstrap Penguins who were a same sex male pair in New York City's Central Park Zoo. Roy and Silo met at the zoo and they began their relationship in 1998, and although staff never saw them in a sexual act, they were observed conducting other mating rituals typical of their breed including entwining their necks and mating calls. In 1999 the pair were observed trying to hatch a rock as if it were an egg. They also attempted to steal eggs from other penguin couples. When the zoo staff realized that Roy and Silo were both male, they tested them further by replacing the rock with a dummy egg made of stone and plaster. As it was "incubated real well" it occurred to the zoo keepers to give them the second egg of a mixed-gender penguin couple, a couple which previously had been unable to successfully hatch two eggs at a time. Roy and Silo incubated the egg for 34 days and spent two and a half months raising the healthy young chick, a female named "Tango". When she reached breeding age, Tango paired with another female penguin called Tanuzi. As of 2005, the two had paired for two mating seasons"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_and_Silo

There is nothing unnatural about homosexuality in mammals. Bonobos, our closest Simian relative still living, have no problem mating with both sexes, constantly. In wolf packs only the Alpha Male and Female mate, the rest of the pack are limited to homosexual relationships. It is a survival mechanism. And the Bible condemns temple prostitutes, not homosexuals. Leviticus is a set of rules to separate the Jewish culture from the extant culture, with it's square beards, temple prostitutes and public orgies(the Assyrians were a fun loving sort). The people of Sodom were guilty of practicing the religion of Ba'al and forcing that religion on all visitors(violating the rules of hospitality that still have an echo in Arab cultures today), not homosexuality. Homosexuality is as natural as breathing, religious bigotry against homosexuality is a perversion of Biblical texts and counter to anything Jesus himself said or did. The Catholic Church even performed same sex unions during several eras of it's existence, prior to 390 AD it was common in the early church, of course the Romans changed all that.


Now you are creation your own interpretation . and justifying your action . I did the same thing, when I was married and had my girlfriend on the side, ( David had several wives )
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Actually, the keeping of a sexual slave was so common that they named the practice Greek, the sexual practice is still refered to as going Greek, the Spartans were not so much into lifelong relationships, but the apprentices were expected to serve in all ways while they were in training. The Romans made no bones about it at all until about 390 AD, when anti-gay laws were passed. During Jesus's day it was common for Roman Officers to keep a pais, the use of that word in the original Greek texts makes it obvious that the beloved servant was the Centurion's homosexual lover and Jesus knew that. Yet he praised the Centurion's faith and said nothing against the practice. That's what is written, believe it or don't, I don't care.

Man , I understand your father was a Baptist minister and you have learned a lot from the bible . But here you are extrapolating into the unknown and calling it a fact . Perhaps in those times people were not as perverted , but we measure them with them with our own immoral view of the present
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I am not extrapolating, I am telling you what your holy book actually says, unfiltered by your pastors training and biases. I've studied this stuff all my life and looking deeper into what those books actually said will lead you to realize almost everything you've been taught is a distortion and sometimes an outright negation of what Jesus actually said. It's like the Rich Man's dilemma, that is political poison so it's ignored, but according to Jesus, in several passages, a rich man can never reach heaven, no exceptions. The only recorded instance of Jesus using violence was running the money changers(read televangelists)out of the Temple with a scourge. And no one teaches the significance of the Golden Calf in the story of the Ten Commandments. Do you think they all just got drunk and some idiot thought it was a good idea? No, the GC was the symbol(if you didn't have a live bull)of Ba'al. Ba'al was the most popular religion of the time among the Assyrians and Egyptians, even Romans had temples. It had temple prostitutes and services were, well...services. Once a year in the spring they had public orgies, kind of Carnival with less inhibitions. It was very popular. So when Moses came down from the mountain with the rules of his new religion he found his people had slipped back into the old one. Now doesn't that whole story make much more sense?

Perhaps in those times people were not as perverted , but we measure them with them with our own immoral view of the present
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People are people, sometimes more flawed, sometimes less. There are no Ba'al type religions in our world today, but I would not argue that we are any better than they were then. The world has had long periods when homosexuality has been widely accepted in society, and other periods when it was not, we are currently coming out of the second type and moving toward the first, and thus is the rhythm of civilization's view of gays.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Mazulu said:
Maybe there is something in human nature that loves POWER, control and the mercy and orderliness that it seems to bring. To Christians, power comes from God and Satan; it polarizes their world view and makes things simpler to understand. To the UFO enthusiasts, the aliens have vast technological power, while the government has the power to eclipse it with secrecy. Atheists find power in science in that science is always right; but it is at the costly expense of imagination; with atheism, you have to think in terms of facts, a vast many facts are bad news. I almost believe that the solution is to let people have their beliefs, but be ready to put the fire out when their differences start to rub, spark and catch fire.
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There is no science without imagination. There is certainly no science fiction, and many writers are atheists. For instance Ian M. Banks, Douglas Adams, Isaac Asimov, J. G. Ballard, Harlan Ellison, Lemony Snicket, Ursula K. Le Guin, H. P. Lovecraft... and many more. Atheists are not at all required to think only in terms of facts, but when it comes to reality, facts and science are important.

I notice you seem to want to reject fact finding because some facts are bad news. But aren't those the most important facts to know? I've heard of an argument from ignorance, but yours seems to be an argument for ignorance.
 
spidergoat said:
There is no science without imagination. There is certainly no science fiction, and many writers are atheists. For instance Ian M. Banks, Douglas Adams, Isaac Asimov, J. G. Ballard, Harlan Ellison, Lemony Snicket, Ursula K. Le Guin, H. P. Lovecraft... and many more. Atheists are not at all required to think only in terms of facts, but when it comes to reality, facts and science are important.

I notice you seem to want to reject fact finding because some facts are bad news. But aren't those the most important facts to know? I've heard of an argument from ignorance, but yours seems to be an argument for ignorance.
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My answer is: dark matter. There are probably some additional forces and particles that we don't know about and can't detect right now. I refuse to believe that reality is limited just to what we can observe right now: the standard model and general relativity.

As for arguing for ignorance, just know that there is a Cthuhulu monster god made of dark matter watching you.
cthulhu.jpg

I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I'm just messing with you. :D
 
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