Atheism and universal loneliness

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by wynn, May 30, 2012.

  1. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly, if you are alone, or seem to be alone your going to be lonely. I believe, and I am a lone.

    I don't feel odd's have anything to do with this. I think I always have been happy, even when im sad I make a disposition to be happy.

    Faith has nothing for organized fanaticism. Faith, and science are a team. A scientist must believe in his method to tread on, and a preacher must have science standing behind him so he is not just babbling. Religion has never given knowledge, thats why science is my friend

    Agreed, but there is a lot to suggest we do live in a "black and white" reality, or more likely, a black and white mixed reality. A "grey reality."

    Dude, dive in.
     
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  3. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    I actually stopped reading that one after it said that..

    and i did make an effort to find sites that were not a religious organizations take on it..(hard to find..)(hard science sites tends to stay away from religious perspectives..)
    and yes i did not want to post the last link...but i was obligated to..

    but again it wasn't my intention to prove or disprove, but just to show a reasonable doubt..
     
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  5. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    I will argue that to a point..
    just because one is alone does not make one lonely..
    just as a person can feel lonely in a crowded room..
     
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  7. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    seagypsy,



    It's not about getting bored of God, but becoming bored of what was a supernatural event, but due it having happened, would no longer be a supernatural event.

    This is atheists understanding of God, a being that performs tricks or magic in order to prove He exists. And when they look with their eyes, or under rocks, and He isn't there, they conclude that He does not exist. Modern atheists just aren't interested in God regardless of whether He exists or not.


    Your description had nothing to do with God, firstly.
    Secondly the excitement of pretty light in the sky, however amazing, soon becomes yesterdays news.



    I talk about God from the scriptoral point of view, so unless you're aware of that, we may have slight communication problems. Best ask me to explain something if you're not sure. Or read scriptures and learn more about Him.



    You don't need to know the laws of nature to be skeptical of miracles.
    I'm sure someone walking of water, or bring the dead back to life (as per description)doesn't requite extensive knowledge of the laws of nature to prove what they just saw.



    You're suggesting it didn't happen, more than likely because;

    1. you've never had such an experience
    2. according to your limited knowledge it cannot happen.



    With all due respect, your opinion makes no difference, to you, me, or anyone, with regard to what Jesus believed, did, or didn't do.
    Your position is this. Either you believe in God, or you don't.



    I think Richard Dawkins celebrity, sums up modern atheism and atheists, pretty well.



    It's the best description I've ever heard from any atheist.


    Don't worry about it.


    What about the others, what reasons do they have, in your opinion??


    Don't you think that level of faith is difficult?
    Using the NT as an analogy again, Jesus' deciples, although with him 24/7, witnessed his works, and emersed in his teachings (including Judas Escariot). they still didn't have faith.



    I think people do truly believe in God, but try to do so on their terms, or terms which accomodate their lifestyle.


    I think you raise a good point.



    My position is as clear as a bell.
    The confusion lies in the difference in communication. I always talk about God from the scriptoral level, which describes Him as a ''spiritual being'' (Supreme Soul), who communicates with His minute parts and parcels (finite souls), us. If we are are prepared to communicate on a spiritual level.

    The atheist generally communicates about God as if He is flesh and bone, and sees things the way they do. They don't regard scripture as relevant or important to the discussion.

    In this way they are never satisfied with the answers I give, because they haven't taken the time to learn about that which they hate/deny/despise/are ignorant about.




    Go and read some scripture, seriously, without preconception, and at least you will understand why you think the way you do.



    Do you think you have the ability to see God, in your current state of being?


    In vedic literature, you can learn of an aspect of God that is eternally with you, this feature is called ''Param-atma''. You might want to look into it.



    God is the only subject that is unchanged, and has stood the test of time.


    These two cultures aren't famed for their spiritual prowess.

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    jan.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2012
  8. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Then this is about as far as our debate can go. You've decided that in spite of the errors, and in spite of the fabrications, that the Bible is in fact an historical document and not a work of mythology. This decision cannot come from scholarship of the Bible, so it must have come from either a deep misunderstanding of what it means to be open minded, or simply a personal desire for it to be a true account. In either case, evidence and reason really can't crack that facade, so I'm not going to try any longer.
     
  9. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    uf..did not say i thought of it as a historical document..
     
  10. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    No arguing this.
     
  11. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

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    Jan Ardena

    Why do theists try so hard to create strawmen of "Atheist's beliefs"? God is a 1. supernatural being 2. who has an effect on reality 3. to carry out his desires. The Bible(for example) is full of magic tricks(stopping the sun, creating a worldwide flood, keeping a man alive for three days in the belly of a fish, splitting the sea, walking on water, etc.). It is not Atheists making claims of magic tricks, it is the theists. I think it would only take seeing his influence within reality, causing outcomes contrary to that which would be explained by natural forces, big, showy abracadabra hardly necessary, the slightest confirmable evidence of such would be enough to deserve further scrutiny. Bringing us to this...

    ...since there isn't the slightest bit of that kind of evidence "modern" Atheists see no value in wasting much effort in such investigations as he probably does not exist. Evidence that he did, however, would be very interesting indeed. It would be great to be able to talk with someone who KNOWS what happens inside Black Holes, for instance. Or where the Big Bang came from(assuming, of course it wasn't just the biggest abracadabra in the Universe).

    Atheists usually know more about scripture than most theists. Personally, I was raised by a Southern Baptist preacher, attended church(until I was 17)every time the doors opened and you really don't want to challenge me in Bible drills, you would lose(comes from attending "Vacation Bible School" 5 or 6 times every summer). I am an Atheist because of what I know about the Christian religion, not because of ignorance of it.

    One source claiming these things happened is too low on the evidence scale to accept them as valid. Especially when many other much different belief systems make similar claims with the same low level of evidence. Thor's hammer does not create thunder, yet the claims of similar events with the same level of evidence are to be accepted because they are Christian claims? I have no real doubt that a man called Jesus actually existed, but it is the religion that added the supernatural claims(nothing we have was writen less that two whole generations after he died), as all mystical religions tend to do. Why not accept the wisdom of some of Jesus's teachings and ignore the supernatural claptrap? Sure cuts down on the cognitive dissonance.

    I think it much more likely that the Disciples witnessed no such events, that the supernatural events were added much later in the editing room while creating the religion 50+ years later.

    Well, DUH! You either believe or you don't. You either smoke cigarrettes or you don't. You either imbibe alcohol or you do not. If you are searching for god you don't believe yet, but you would like to, else you would not need to search you would have found.

    It only sums up what Richard Dawkins thinks, he speaks for no one but himself(we don't have a church yet, nor any wisdom handed down from authority that we all accept). I agree with much that Dawkins says, but arrived at those positions decades before I ever heard his name. Same goes for Myers and Krauss. My Atheism is more informed by Asimov, Einstein and Sagan.

    Indoctrination and culture, largely. Or do you think there are other explanations for most children born of Muslim parents ending up as Muslims(feel free to substitute any religion(or even sect or cult)for the word Muslim). Children are biologically primed to take the word of parents and other grownups as true.

    Likely all they witnessed was the teachings of Jesus without any extraordinary events or miracles at all. It sure does make more sense of how they wouldn't having faith that he was some kind of god.

    And I think those who believe in god have never really examined the question. Most of those who profess to believe do so more to fit in rather than actual belief.

    Stuffing straw again, I see. As I pointed out, most Atheists know more about scripture than most theists. We just don't accept the supernatural and regard that as we would any mythical claim in any other myth. For the same reasons. I don't hate religion, but I do hate the evil some of it's adherrants do. And regret the mindless acceptance of many others. But I am certainly not ignorant about the subject.

    You are obviously totally ignorant about the history of god(s). Even the difference between the god of the OT and Jesus escapes your cognizance. God(s) change all the time, so no god has "stood the test of time", ever. You can see the changes between what the churches are saying about god throughout history, if you had bothered to look, as you say, without your preconceptions.

    Examine India, a country known for it's spiritual prowess, and the mess of gods they worship. Not being that way seems a plus, not a minus.

    Grumpy

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  12. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    Your honesty on it belies the deceptions that can be found in those sites.

    So don't sweat it.

    Fact is, the Bible is not exactly verifiable. The contents within are letters, stories, even some tall tales.

    The majority of studied 'religious' people don't take it too literally, they try to use it to find guidance and wisdom- and as a book, it does contain a lot of wisdom.
    I do consider it mostly fiction. Maybe historical fiction. I don't doubt many of those people lived, unlike Paul Bunyan. I also don't doubt that the truth of their lives is not contained within that book.
    Others may feel differently; that's fine.

    But where I get bothered enough to speak against the bible is when it's presented as Literal. Presented as evidence. Presented as infallible. Considering what's contained within it- that's dangerous.
    It's unhealthy- it's harmful. While the average Joe is aware enough of this to not take it literally... it was not always so. And look at the harm and the hate and the unrest throughout history caused by using this book to justify crimes against humanity, racial division (Cited the book of Genesis to prove we must be separate from asians and africans), witch burning and hunts, oppression of other ideas, of science and of human relations.
    To this day, it remains. It's calmer, there are less wars, people are more educated and more prone to debate than to violence. But the violence is still there.

    If you have faith, hold it as your own. You don't need an ancient book to validate it.
     
  13. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    i was at the blood bank yesterday and it had a book from a religious org, one of the questions it had in it was "what is the greatest evidence that the bible is true"

    the next line was a quote from the bible...

    I tossed it back on the table...

    If i were to attend a church like that, i would run from it..
    I call them types, The Church of the Dumb..
     
  14. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    Withdrawal or deposit?
     
  15. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    donate for cigs and gas..
     
  16. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Excellent post. However, don't be condescending.
     
  17. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    Thought they only pay for plasma?
     
  18. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    I think I can speak for most atheists in disagreeing with that characterization. A better way to represent the atheist view is this. Atheists regard the idea of God as one that arose out of superstition and a belief in magic, one that created the many myths commonly associated with God to explain phenomena for which they had no science. Most notable are the creation and flood myths, but obviously there are many more.

    Atheists wouldn't believe God plays tricks to prove that he exists, just that he doesn't exist at all and that the belief that he does exist requires the believer to believe that God plays tricks for many reasons.

    Most atheists regard God as an invention by imaginative storytellers, and the basis for this comes just from the prima facie reading of the various texts. Atheists have no reason to search for evidence of God since there is no meaningful search for a myth of this kind. What they are quick to point out to their detractors is that, since there is no evidence for the existence of God, the arguments from believers, that God exists, are unsupported by any evidence.
     
  19. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

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    Aqueous Id

    I would add the thought that an Atheist is more likely to recognize and accept evidence of supernatural influence if it did show up as we have no preconceived notions of what form such influence would take, where theists think they know what god is and how he would behave. Their confirmation bias would interfere with seeing the evidence, especially if it contradicts those preconceptions. I also think that thoughtful Atheists(I am specifically thinking of Isaac Asimov here)have a clearer view of what is at the "heart" of religions and morality because they look at them without the "God colored glasses" most people who "know" god wear. Asimov's commentary on the Bible is probably the most fair and scholarly treatise on the subject yet written.

    Grumpy

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  20. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    If you need to feel you "matter" in order to be happy, then more power to you. But your desire does not make it a reality.

    Atheism is born out of the recognition of what reality is (albeit according to them), not out of what they want reality to be.

    You want to be a king. You decide that you are a king.
    I want to be a king. I acknowledge that that does not make me a king.

    (This is a very loose analogy, not meant to be taken literally or personally, simply pointing out the atheist philosophy that wanting something - even really badly - does not make it so.)
     
  21. scorpius a realist Valued Senior Member

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    when did that happen,I must have missed it..LOL

    happines comes from having full stomach and a roof over your head,
    not some Imaginary diety

    atheism is simply lack of belief in gods,Ive noticed that atheists are way more rational and logical then theist any day..we get things done while god believers waste time praying!
     
  22. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    I wonder what a theist would say if a crazed bath salt loving zombie was beating down their door and the the 911 operator said, "oh dear, let me pray for you. Don't worry, God is listening"
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
  23. Gremmie "Happiness is a warm gun" Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not exactly sure...

    But, I would guess there would be a lot of screaming, followed by an extra segment on the news later that evening,..

    And a coroners report.... On whatever's left of them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012

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