Athiesm, Punishment and Killing

SnakeLord · Mar 17, 2008

I agree. Feels odd agreeing with you snakelord but i suppose the odds where that we would eventually find some point of agreement somewhere along the way. lol
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The current system in most of the world only provides offenders with a facility where they can learn to be more effective criminals and turns petty criminals into people with psychological scars capable of great violence because from the abuse they received in prison.
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Alas this is one of the downsides but is not a problem with the justice system. The issue is that upon release most convicts find themselves unable to get a job and thus have little choice but to once again resort to crime.

Every job application you'll find makes people fill in conviction details. With hundreds of people going for the same job, any application with that section filled in goes straight in the bin. Be honest, as an employer which would you choose: The kid that went to university or the one that went to jail?

Once you have served the time for the crime it should be forgotten, giving the ex-con a fighting chance.

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S.A.M. · Mar 17, 2008

James R said: ↑

Do you have any references to atheists on this forum who said that?
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In the link?

You still seem to be having trouble separating cause and effect here.

How many "atheist rulers" have killed in the name of atheism, or set up societies where people are killed for failing to live up to "atheist ideals", whatever they are meant to be? I'll venture: none.
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Several. To quote a few

The Soviet Union was an officially atheist state.

Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. As the founder of the Soviet state V. I. Lenin put it:

Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class.

Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and, ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs. In the 1920s and 1930s, such organizations as the League of the Militant Godless ridiculed all religions and harassed believers. Atheism was propagated through schools, communist organizations (such as the Young Pioneer Organization), and the media.
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China:

The People's Republic of China was established in 1949. Its government is officially atheist, which viewed religion as emblematic of feudalism and foreign colonialism.

Religious belief or practice was banned because it was regarded as backward and superstitious by some of the communist leaders, from Vladimir Lenin to Mao Zedong, who had been critical of religious institutions.[20]

Houses of worship, including pagodas, temples, mosques, and churches, were converted into non-religious buildings for secular use during its early years. The Cultural Revolution led to a policy of elimination of religions; a massive number of places of worship was destroyed.
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Korea:

On both sides of the border, Dobbs heard horror stories from underground Christians about recent North Korean persecution. Executions and torture may occur in large part in North Korea's prison camp—the gulag holds an estimated 200,000 political prisoners—but they also happen in public. Dobbs gleaned one estimate that the regime kills 300 people a year for their faith. Other well-connected activists report arrests of Christians were higher last year than in 2005, with perhaps 50,000 believers languishing in prison.

* In one prison, a warden hung a Christian man upside down and ordered him to deny his beliefs. Eventually the warden stabbed at him and pushed him to the ground, ordering 6,000 prisoners to trample him to death.
* Eight prisoners stayed silent when told to deny the existence of heaven, so an infuriated prison official ordered other inmates to pour molten iron over them.
* Some reports say Christian prisoners are deliberately crippled so they cannot walk; others are left naked and so starved they eat the rats scampering in their prison cells raw.
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James R said:

If you need to ask, you probably need to go and do some basic reading on the issue of punishment. Read about the influence of classicism and positivism on the history of punishment. In particular, I suggest you look up the names Cesare Lombroso and Jeremy Bentham and read what they had to say about the rationale and purpose of punishment.

Once you've done that, come back and we can have a useful discussion.
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Thanks.
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iceaura said: ↑

The confusion of theism with religion is going to dog this whole argument.

Besides, the mindreading involved in determining whether a ruler is atheist or not (and what exactly is meant by that) is beyond me. More useful, I think, to compare childhood and character building environments than states of mind - more reliable data.

As far as why an atheist tyrant would punish and kill - I presume more or less with the same motives anyone would, only with different public justification.

If we look at societies under rulers, they are replete with murder and torture. With exceptions, naturally.

Something to consider: given the lack of the crutch and pre-groomed underlings, tyrants that have no religion supporting their seizure of power might find murder and torture more needful. That may account for their extreme rarity - to last, tyranny requires a moral as well as a physical authority, and without the supportive priest a tyrant's task becomes more difficult.

Given a fear of God to work with, the tyrant may need less fear of violence, say.
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That makes sense, it also explains why they eventually had to give up, since all they did was create martyrs.

Bolshevik policies toward religious belief and practice tended to vacillate over time between, on the one hand, a utopian determination to substitute secular rationalism for what they considered to be an unmodern, "superstitious" worldview and, on the other, pragmatic acceptance of the tenaciousness of religious faith and institutions. In any case, religious beliefs and practices did persist, in the domestic and private spheres but also in the scattered public spaces allowed by a state that recognized its failure to eradicate religion and the political dangers of an unrelenting culture war.[8] The result of this militant atheism was to transform the Church into a persecuted and martyred Church.

An intense ideological anti-Christian and anti-religious campaign was carried out throughout the history of the Soviet Union. An extensive education and propaganda campaign was undertaken to convince people, especially the children and youth, not to become believers. The role of the Christian religion and the Church was painted in black colors in school textbooks. For instance, much emphasis was placed on the role of the Church in such historical horror stories as the Inquisition, persecution of Galileo, Giordano Bruno, and other heretical scientists, and the Crusades. School students were encouraged to taunt and use peer pressure against classmates wearing crosses or otherwise professing their faith. In the 1920s there were many "anti-God" publications and social clubs sponsored by the government, most notably the scathingly satirical "Godless at the Workbench" ("Bezbozhnik u Stanka" in Russian). Later on, these disappeared because a new generation has grown up essentially atheist.[citation needed]

A "scientific" perspective was used to attack religion extensively. The Church was portrayed as obscurantist and opposed to the findings of science. Much was made of alleged Christian belief in the literal Creation account in the book of Genesis which the pro-Darwinian textbooks ridiculed.[citation needed] As part of the anti-foreign and anti-capitalist propaganda, an effort was made, especially in the 1920s and 1930s, to imprint in the minds of the people an image of the West as dominated by the anti-scientific ignorance of the Church, as opposed to the scientifically "progressive" atheist Soviet state.[citation needed]

In general, Christianity was portrayed as corrupt, hypocritical, a loyal servant of the reactionary czar, obscurantist, "opium for the people" according to Karl Marx, and otherwise evil. However in spite of the Communist regimes attempts to stamp out Christianity in its lands the Church and Christianity actually florished, as many Christians began to practice and preach their faith in secret, this movement was called the Underground Church, of which Ritchard Werembrant of Romania was a prominent member and preacher. The Underground Church still exixts in Communist lands like China, North Korea, Vietnam etc. Many Christian believers in the Soviet Union have told of being imprisoned for no other reason than believing in God. Many have recently been canonized as saints following their death at the hands of Soviet authorities; they are collectively referred to in the Orthodox Church as the "new martyrs".
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Crunchy Cat · Mar 17, 2008

S.A.M. said: ↑

According to some atheists on this forum, religion should not have ANY decree on murder or killing under any circumstances, as this proscribes capital punishment and/or provides justification for killing.
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Religion should not have any power over a governing body, other religions, or non-religions.

S.A.M. said: ↑

Some also disagree with the notion of forgiveness/compensation of crime as an alternative to punishment, while agreeing that prisons are full of innocent but convicted people.
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I think there's room for the juducial system to become more aligned with human psychology.

S.A.M. said: ↑

However, if we look at societies under atheist rulers, they are replete with murder and torture.
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I guess they should have governed instead of ruled no?

S.A.M. said: ↑

So, in the absence of scriptures and religion, what is the atheists inspiration for murder? What is the "rational" approach to punishment?
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Threat removal presumably. IMO, the best approach to dealing with a criminal is to fix the criminal's behavior if they want to change. I speculate we'll invent technology to switch peoples behavioral epigenetic markers on and off and that will make behavior modification a heck of alot quicker than traditional methods.

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spidergoat · Mar 17, 2008

What nation with an official religion has a space program, and has sent people into space like the USSR and the US have?

S.A.M. · Mar 17, 2008

spidergoat said: ↑

What nation with an official religion has a space program, and has sent people into space like the USSR and the US have?
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What does that have to do with killing or punishment?

spidergoat · Mar 17, 2008

I'm just saying, there are benefits to a secular state, for instance greater promotion of science and technology.

Chinese punishment hasn't changed too much since ancient times, thus their famous cruelty is a cultural phenomenon, not a religious one.

S.A.M. · Mar 17, 2008

spidergoat said: ↑

I'm just saying, there are benefits to a secular state, for instance greater promotion of science and technology. .
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Doesn't help the thousands incarcerated or killed, I'm afraid.

Chinese punishment hasn't changed too much since ancient times, thus their famous cruelty is a cultural phenomenon, not a religious one
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Before:

Religion in China has been characterized by pluralism since the beginning of Chinese history. Temples of many different religions dot China's landscape, particularly those of Taoism, Buddhism, and Chinese folk religion. Mahayana Buddhism remains the largest organized religion in China since its introduction in the 1st century.

Independently of adherence to organized religions (see below), most Chinese ground their spirituality in Chinese folk religion, Confucianism, and ancestor worship. These are not organized religions but rather practices or thought systems denoting membership in ethnic Chinese culture and civilization.

The Chinese religions are family-oriented and, unlike Western religions, do not demand the exclusive adherence of members. Chinese people may visit Buddhist temples while living according to Taoist principles and participating in local ancestor veneration rituals.
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After:

The People's Republic of China was established in 1949. Its government is officially atheist, which viewed religion as emblematic of feudalism and foreign colonialism.

Religious belief or practice was banned because it was regarded as backward and superstitious by some of the communist leaders, from Vladimir Lenin to Mao Zedong, who had been critical of religious institutions.[20]

Houses of worship, including pagodas, temples, mosques, and churches, were converted into non-religious buildings for secular use during its early years. The Cultural Revolution led to a policy of elimination of religions; a massive number of places of worship was destroyed.

This policy relaxed considerably in the late 1970s at the end of the Cultural Revolution and more tolerance of religious expression has been permitted since the 1980s. The 1978 Constitution of the People's Republic of China guarantees "freedom of religion" with a number of restrictions. Since the mid-1990s there has been a massive program to rebuild Buddhist and Taoist temples.

The Chinese Communist Party has said that religious belief and membership are incompatible. Party membership is a necessity for many high level careers and posts. That along with other official hostility makes statistical reporting on religious membership difficult.
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I'd say the persecution for belief has increased under atheist rule, wiping out centuries of religious pluralism.

spidergoat · Mar 17, 2008

Right, but their treatment of criminals hasn't changed much in hundreds of years, only what they call a crime.

If you insist on condemning, for good reason, the detainment of people for religious reasons, you would have to consider the martyr of thousands of Christians by the Romans, the destruction of Aztec culture by European missionaries, the arrest and torture of Bahá'ís in Iran, the Russian pogroms against Jews, the crusades, the 30 years war between Catholics and Protestants, the Inquisitions, the Salem witch trials, the Armenian genocide... Religion not only failed to prevent these tragedies, it caused them.

Atheism failed to prevent the murder of political prisoners in the USSR, but it didn't cause it.

S.A.M. · Mar 17, 2008

spidergoat said: ↑

Atheism failed to prevent the murder of political prisoners in the USSR, but it didn't cause it.
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Hmm if they were arrested, tortured or killed for not being godless, then it most certainly did.

Same logic as here:

If you insist on condemning, for good reason, the detainment of people for political or religious reasons, you would have to consider the martyr of thousands of Christians by the Romans, the destruction of Aztec culture by European missionaries, the arrest and torture of Bahá'ís in Iran, the Russian pogroms against Jews, the crusades, the 30 years war between Catholics and Protestants, the Inquisitions, the Salem witch trials, the Armenian genocide... Religion not only failed to prevent these tragedies, it caused them.
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spidergoat · Mar 17, 2008

I don't know of any that were sent to Siberia for not being atheist.

draqon · Mar 17, 2008

guys in Russia the pogroms happened not because they were Jews, but because Jews in Russia happened to be very wealthy and that meant that under those laws they could own many slaves which were of Russian blood, it got to be so bad that one Jewish master owned as many as 100 slaves in his house...a death of which would not be noticed. So Russians rebelled and Jews had to run elsewhere.

spidergoat · Mar 17, 2008

S.A.M. said: ↑

Hmm if they were arrested, tortured or killed for not being godless, then it most certainly did.

Same logic as here:
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Actually not even. If they were arrested, tortured and killed for not being godless, atheism wasn't the reason. The reason was prejudice against religion. Atheism doesn't cause prejudice against religion. If you are an atheist, and you feel the need to kill or harm religious people, that is due to your perverse nature, not the disbelief in God.

On the other hand, religion causes prejudice against other religions and atheism, since many religions consider unbelievers to be influenced by Satan, and their influence a threat to everlasting union with God.

In some religions, if you leave it, the believers are directed to kill you. Atheism has no such tenets.

S.A.M. · Mar 17, 2008

spidergoat said: ↑

Actually not even. If they were arrested, tortured and killed for not being godless, atheism wasn't reason. The reason was prejudice against religion. Atheism doesn't cause prejudice against religion. If you are an atheist, and you feel the need to kill or harm religious people, that is due to your perverse nature, not the disbelief in God.

On the other hand, religion causes prejudice against other religions and atheism, since many religions consider unbelievers to be influenced by Satan, and their influence a threat to everlasting union with God.

In some religions, if you leave it, the believers are directed to kill you. Atheism has no such tenets.
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Unfortunately the evidence contradicts you. Apparently atheism can be as if not more intolerant of other beliefs, even without written tenets. There are quite a few examples right here on this forum, who think merely being religious is sufficient to consider the other person unnatural or brainwashed or inferior.

S.A.M. · Mar 17, 2008

spidergoat said: ↑

I don't know of any that were sent to Siberia for not being atheist.
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Just because you don't know does not mean it did not happen

Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church, Uniats, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed.

According to the declassified Soviet archives, during a one year period covering 1937 and 1938 alone, Stalin's police detained 1,548,367 victims, of whom 681,692 were shot - an average of 1,000 executions a day. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, numerous mass graves filled with executed victims of the terror were discovered. Some, such as the killing fields at Kurapaty and Bykivnia, are believed to contain hundreds of thousands of corpses.
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http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/news/transdniestrias_bishop_blesses_memorial_to_stalin_victims.html

draqon · Mar 17, 2008

S.A.M. said: ↑

Just because you don't know does not mean it did not happen

http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/news/transdniestrias_bishop_blesses_memorial_to_stalin_victims.html
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this are all lies.
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S.A.M. · Mar 17, 2008

draqon said: ↑

this are all lies.
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Apparently its an underestimate :bugeye:

Some experts believe the evidence released from the Soviet archives is understated, incomplete or unreliable. For example, Robert Conquest suggests that the probable figure for executions during the years of the Great Purge is not 681,692, but some two and a half times as high. He believes that the KGB was covering its tracks by falsifying the dates and causes of death of rehabilitated victims.
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You can look it up here

http://www.memo.ru/eng/

draqon · Mar 17, 2008

S.A.M. said: ↑

Apparently its an underestimate :bugeye:
You can look it up here
http://www.memo.ru/eng/
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LIES

its easy to get a website these days and rewrite the history

spidergoat · Mar 17, 2008

S.A.M. said: ↑

Unfortunately the evidence contradicts you. Apparently atheism can be as if not more intolerant of other beliefs, even without written tenets. There are quite a few examples right here on this forum, who think merely being religious is sufficient to consider the other person unnatural or brainwashed or inferior.
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Atheism is just not believing in God. That's it. Anything else is your own interpretation.

It's as if you blamed all the world's problems on not being a zombie.

S.A.M. · Mar 17, 2008

spidergoat said: ↑

Atheism is just not believing in God. That's it. Anything else is your own interpretation.

It's as if you blamed all the world's problems on not being a zombie.
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Yeah its all in the interpretation, isn't it?
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S.A.M. · Mar 17, 2008

draqon said: ↑

LIES

its easy to get a website these days and rewrite the history
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draqon, the fact that millions died under Stalin is not news.

There are mass graves to prove it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_graves_in_the_Soviet_Union

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Athiesm, Punishment and Killing

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