Discussion: Auschwitz Holocaust Claims Are Unsubstantiated

Discussion in 'Formal debates' started by James R, Jun 18, 2012.

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  1. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Murder isn't art, it's crime. But a disdain for experimental art, music and culture typifies fascism and totalitarian societies.

    I would believe in the history of the death camps even if I didn't know my great Aunt. ...because I'm not a fucking retard. Here is how retards think:

    1. The Holocaust never happened.
    2. OK, there were concentration camps, but they weren't as bad as people say.
    3. OK, they were that bad, but this fact cannot be used as justification for modern Jews to form Israel or get reparations.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2012
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  3. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    So its retarded to think victims of crimes can't commit crimes themselves?
    when ever we allow victims to use their own victimhood as justification for the commiting crimes we go down a path paved in blood and littered with bodies.
     
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  5. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    um yeah your fucking nuts. my german grandfather was put in nazi workcamps as a teen. when people tried to leave other than bi weekly familial visits they were shot. the holocaust wasn't a jewish only event and there are many non jewish voices out there to tell stories of the horrors.
     
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  7. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    That's not the point. My point was that they start with #3 and work backwards to whatever argument they think they can get away with. It's disingenuous.
     
  8. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    that it is. i never understood how people could pretend it didn't happen.
     
  9. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    After Perestroika the governments of the former Soviet-puppet countries opened their archives to Western scholars for the first time since the war. One thing a lot of people don't grasp is that the Germans have always been compulsive record-keepers. Even when they were doing something that the rest of the world regarded as beyond inhuman (to the point that some people right here insist that it didn't happen because to believe otherwise is to lose a good deal of one's faith in one's fellow humans), they continued to keep meticulous records.

    It turns out that there were three times as many concentration camps throughout Europe as we had all been taught: 15,000, not 5,000. What it came down to is that everyone within the German sphere of allied or occupied countries who lived in a town of any size could not have been ignorant of what was going on.
    When I was in the former nation of Yugoslavia in 1973 the city of Niš had a memorial to the Holocaust victims in their largest park. It was three gigantic statues. The large one commemorated the Jewish victims, the second-largest was the Serbs, and the smallest was the Gypsies. These people didn't even like Gypsies (and from what I read they still don't), but even they could grasp the fact that killing an entire population of them by cruel methods (not even a quick and painless bullet to the head) went beyond the bounds of ethnic rivalry.

    My mother's family came from Bohemia. (We call it the Czech Republic today because that's so much easier to spell and pronounce.) There were many Nazi atrocities against the Bohemian people. They completely exterminated the village of Lidice, where my mother reasoned (based on family stories) some of our relatives had been living. They murdered all the men they could find and sent hundreds of women and children to concentration camps--only 200 returned after the war.
     
  10. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    It's also a little known fact that many, many people in the war regions of Europe were killed as a result of deliberate starvation and related illnesses, never having been detained or sent to any camp.
     
  11. Xotica Everyday I’m Shufflin Registered Senior Member

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    Dozens of my extended family were murdered by the Einsatzgruppen in Ukraine and Russia.

    For the past decade, a French Roman Catholic priest has devoted his life to documenting Nazi atrocities in Ukraine. The Rev. Patrick Desbois was profiled in the New York Times in October of 2007...

    A Priest Methodically Reveals Ukrainian Jews’ Fate
     
  12. scifes heckle the snobs Valued Senior Member

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    personal accounts are personal accounts. not evidence.
    there're verified chains of personal accounts of people seeing miracles of abrahamic prophets, the scientific community regards it as folklore or bs, i don't see why the personal accounts of holocaust victims is any different :shrug:

    other provided evidence like photos or documents are something else, but personal experiences are just that, and zero on the facts scale, period.
     
  13. rpenner Fully Wired Staff Member

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    Incorrect -- personal accounts of an event are evidence that the event happened, eyewitness evidence. People in the US routinely get convicted on the based of eyewitness evidence, even if it is not utterly reliable. In population science, anecdotal evidence is of low probative value in determining the numerical strength of an effect or in evidence of phenomena best known by experts -- but you don't have to be an expert to notice your government has decided to kill off millions of its own civilian population and is being systematic and meticulous about it.

    Your personal experience that the Holocaust never happened to you is what is worthless on the fact scale, because you are too young to have been alive when the Holocaust happened. Your opinion, to the extent that you have one, should be shaped by eyewitnesses, government records, and the overwhelming consensus of academic historians -- not people who profit by catering to modern neo-Nazis, not non-academic books written by the same.

    You are considerably overstating the "verified chains" of miracles and UFO sightings. When the people doing the verifying have criteria other than truth motivating such "verifications" are worthless.
     
  14. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

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    So what you are suggesting is that if I actuually witness a crime, say a murder, and I was called upon to testify what I saw my eye witness account wouldn't be admitted as evidence? I'd think you have a very serious problem with the way you think about what evidence actually is.

    Evidence:

    A. There were concentration camps that had humans in them which are still standing today for all to still view.

    B. There were gas chambers within those concentration camps which were used to murder humans.

    C. There were eye witnesses who were there and were not executed and were asked to use their eye witness accounts as to what they saw happen.

    D. There were mass graves uncovered with pictures to prove where they were located next to the concentration camps and eye witnesses who saw or were people who threw the murdered bodies into those mass graves.

    E. Eye witness testimony from ranking Nazi officers telling the courts what they did.
     
  15. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Not when they corroborate the physical evidence, then you can be sure these are valid personal accounts of the reality.
     
  16. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    what about the personal accounts of intelligence operatives
     
  17. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Good point. If there were no death camps, then what the hell happened to my family? Why did practically all my ancestors who didn't come to New York in the 1920's disappear?
     
  18. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

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    Back in Jr. High School, one of my teachers had been part of the first allied units to reach the camps. He took pictures. I would believe that counts as evidence.
     
  19. keith1 Guest

    I have made my comments to claim validity of the issue to the positive.
    But I would request the "shoe pile" evidence not be made admissible, as shoes are known to be a valuable bartering commodity in a prison camp environment anyways, and caches of such would be expected to be found in such places, before, or after, any preponderance of event.
     
  20. Xotica Everyday I’m Shufflin Registered Senior Member

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    There was no bartering of shoes at Auschwitz. The mountains of shoes depicted are enpaneled behind glass in a warehouse that was known in the camp as "Kanada". These shoes are probably from the Hungarian transports which transpired very late in the camp history.

    After collecting enough material to warrant rail transport, everything was shipped to the Reich. The mountains of shoes at Auschwitz have been preserved exactly as discovered by the Red Army on January 27, 1945.

    Another Kanada warehouse contains hundreds of baby carriages. I daresay, it is difficult to accept the notion of baby prams as a camp bartering commodity.
     
  21. Bells Staff Member

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    How about hair?

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    Human hair in display case at Auschwitz

    Photo Credit: Lukasz Trzcinski




    According to a Museum guide book, entitled "Auschwitz 1940 - 1945," which was first published in 1995, the Soviet Army found about 7,000 kilograms of human hair, packed in paper bags, when they liberated the camp. This was only a fraction of the hair cut from the heads of the Jews at Auschwitz; the rest of the hair had been sent to the Alex Zink company in Bavaria to be made into various products. Prisoners in all the Nazi concentration camps, who were selected for work, had all their body hair removed immediately upon arrival, in an effort to prevent typhus, which is spread by body lice.

    The following quote is from the book "Auschwitz 1940 - 1945":

    The analysis of the hair found in the camp, made by the Institute of Forensic Medicine in Crackow, is given below:

    "Analysis of hair has shown the presence of hydrogen cyanide, a poisonous ingredient proper to compounds known as cyclons."

    Human hair does not normally deteriorate with age. Auschwitz survivors say that the hair in the large glass display case was cut from the heads of the victims after they were killed with Zyklon-B in the gas chambers.

     
  22. Epictetus here & now Registered Senior Member

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  23. keith1 Guest


    Zyclon-B in itself was a (at the time) standard delousing agent, used in the US, before the Nazis rose to power, to debug trains and Mexican emigrants.

    The Germans used gas as a "tool of warfare" in WW1**.

    It seems the more one hates the poor, the more one begins to hate the nationalities where the poor congregate from...one could add that to make a section of the population poor, and to remove the effective safety nets to rationally rehabilitate that population, is the first step of dehumanizing that section of the population....permanently.

    (I still recall Herr Gramma Bush at the Houston stadium full of hurricane refugees. They were forced to listen to her chastise them for being caught red-handed being "poor and destitute"--she showed up to gloat!!--what an old Nazi c**!!)

    The V2 Rockets were a tool expected to eventually reduce the British Isles to Nazi dominion, and reduce the British people to a state of poor and destitute.
    It would be proven out, that the U.S., Aussies, and Canadians would not allow a level of "no return of the safety nets to rationally rehabilitate" the British Isles.

    The Reich was too stupid to formulate that outcome, without spending fortunes to test that theory. The Republicans in the U.S. have the same low IQ at spending on failed insight...

    ** Courtesy: Wikipedia
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2012
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