# Body Signals Redux: Proving Mormonism

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Billy Baxter, Dec 30, 2016.

1. ### Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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4,142
I bet a few of us could get together and start a internet religion.

I think the reason why Joe Smith probably did it was because he was not smart enough to make money via reasonable means.

I saw this evangelistic preacher on TV his congregation all African Americans but strangely he was not.

He had them in the palm of his hand but what knocked me over was he was selling "manna" "manor" whatever ..that stuff God fed the Hrebrews with in the desert.

It looked like unleavened bread...what a con and yet they don't goal him.

Anyways I would rather be poor than a scum bag like Joe Smith.

And he porked his next door neighbours daughter ...I glossed over that but I think his excuse was it was OK by God to have more than one wife...maybe that is where the more than one wife nonsence started.. a mere side step for his adultery.

Can you imagine your wife finds you with the girl next door playing mummies and daddies and you come out with...I did it because God commanded me to have more than one wife and well I must follow Gods command....yes dear that what he told me now let's all get under the covers and obey God.

Billy do you have the truth on Joe Smiths relationship with the girl next door?

Alex

Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
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3. ### Billy BaxterRegistered Senior Member

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The question is, will you listen to the truth about JS or will you naively and completely, uncritically accept without question every scandalous thing his enemies say about him?

5. ### Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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Also

If folk are out to get him could you please indicate why they have him in their sites.
The record of his arrest and conviction was not found on the public record but in a basement I think... Would you like to comment upon that for example.
Alex

Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
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7. ### Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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Hi Billy,
I will hear you out.
Do you think the various allegations are unfounded?
Would you care to present his side of the allegations of adultry, and fraud.
What is your version of him interpreting and dictating the book?
Thinking about it Billy I would much rather I could be shown Joe Smith was not a liar as it would leave me less concerned about those I genuinely believe he has conned in the interest of his personal gain.
I am easy to deal with and promise I will be understanding and fair.
I am very happy I did not scare you away and say I did feel I was probably sounding aggressive, please forgive me.
Alex

8. ### billvonValued Senior Member

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13,244
Same could be asked of you. Can you listen to the truth about JS or will you naively and completely, uncritically accept without question every bit of glowing praise his worshipers heap on him?[/QUOTE]

9. ### Billy BaxterRegistered Senior Member

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102
Hi Alex,

No one scared me away--I just don't reply to certain types of posts.
The anti-Mormons spread bs about every little thing they can think of, imaginary or real, against the Church. most of what they say is logically fallacious, such as ad hominems, straw men, non sequiturs, appeals to anger/outrage, false dilemmas, begging the question, circular reasoning, poisoning the well, slippery slopes, etc.
Again I'd direct you to read the Book of mormon. The Joseph Smith story in his own words is at the beginning. http://scriptures.lds.org/ .
JS was a good, virtuous man, not at all as his enemies portray him.

10. ### Billy BaxterRegistered Senior Member

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102
I'll be away from my computer for weeks starting tomorrow, just to let you know.

11. ### MacGyver1968Fixin' Shit that Ain't BrokeValued Senior Member

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7,028
Run away. That's the easiest way to confront your problems. It's the same thing that JS did when he was confronted with legal issues. Run the "f" away to avoid legal issues.

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12. ### Billy BaxterRegistered Senior Member

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102
oh, i'm not running away, far from it. i have pressing personal business that won't wait.
i'll get online when i can.

13. ### Billy BaxterRegistered Senior Member

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I am not aware of this record, haven't ever heard of it. Cite?

14. ### Billy BaxterRegistered Senior Member

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102
Truck Captain Stumpy and others,

I do apologize for name-calling and spelling/grammar nitpicking. i was irritated that day.

15. ### Truck Captain StumpyRegistered Senior Member

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735
well... the exact same thing can be asked of you.
there is more evidence for my posts than there are for your js golden leaves and interpretations of the bible - so which will you believe? the empirical evidence or the leadership who has a vested interest in keeping you in the church?
that is true - but it is also true of every religion ever
but i am not anti-mormon. i am anti-religion - true... but i personally don't give a rat's *ss what anyone believes
what i do have a problem with, however, is when people claim that it's factual or evidence based and then cannot provide the reputable or verifiable evidence, and this is something that i've run into with many, many, many religions... and believe me, i've been exposed to far more religions than you have

more to the point: you wanted to make an argument that your twinges (or the physical feelings that are governed by your CNS, brain and other factors) are in fact a message from a deity, and you wanted to make a scientific argument
let me re-quote that for you:
the problem with all that is: you've demonstrated, in this thread alone, that you're not willing to change or alter your perspective based upon evidenciary proof that directly refutes your claims

this is anathema to science - science doesn't make up it's mind then seek the evidence, but fail to change when said evidence refutes or falsifies the point.
religion, however, actively supports belief regardless of the evidence provided.
apology accepted - you're frustrated because your worldview was challenged by evidence based argument
that tends to have profound consequences

ignoring it will not make it go away
it is circumstantial evidence of a more nefarious intent as well as delusional behaviour though
... i can build a strong case for that from this thread alone, mind you

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16. ### Billy BaxterRegistered Senior Member

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As i've repeatedly said, TOBS is not Mormonism and Mormonism is not TOBS. i believed i could prove TOBS, not Mormonism, scientifically. i'm not so sure about that now, but i do know that Mormonism is true--whether or not TOBS turns out to hold water.

17. ### Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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I followed your link and note that it's not free and so I will not get to read it.
I would have simply to be able to say I had but there is no way I am parting with cash to sacrifice my time was a greater investment than I normally would make.
The thing is you believe Joe Smith was a good man and it is nice to try and see the good in folk but I sincerely believe he was a liar.
There is no proof that I can offer that will change your views and I am sure we both agree upon that.
On the positive the teachings of Jesus are not too bad in my view and I try and live by christian principles like respect for others, avoiding negative things and supporting good things but that does not mean I have to believe that Jesus was God etc frankly I doubt if such a person existed.
I just think lieing is bad even if the lie does good and to claim you were given a golden bible which you translated with a hat over your face sounds like a terrible lie to me but if you can believe it good luck to you.
I hope you get what you pay for.
I heard your folk pay out 10% of their income to the church I hope I am wrong there Billy but if you get peace of mind and find a purpose to live that is great.
I don't need any of the peace of mind or reason to live so fortunately I have what believers are trying to find.
I take personal responsibility for my actions which gives me a power I think any believer could only envy.
I hope you manage the personal matters which will take you away and success is yours.
Alex

18. ### Truck Captain StumpyRegistered Senior Member

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735
i never said otherwise
to do that you must be able to rule out all biological responses and provide very extraordinary evidence
EDIT:
in addition - you will have to be able to show repeat-ability as well as validation from secondary sources
you will also have to be able to differentiate between normal biological processes and "messages"

considering the historical evidence behind biological processes, this will be a considerably large task with extraordinary evidence.
END EDIT
belief in a topic without empirical evidence means it's a faith
a faith, by definition, is subjective to the individual, and as such, cannot be universally true or considered true in any objective way
Therefore it can be "true" to you, but it can't be "true" in the same sense that science is true

anything that is subjective can't be "true" in the same sense that Science is true, BTW, so it's not a direct attack on mormonism, but rather on faith based beliefs period

19. ### Billy BaxterRegistered Senior Member

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https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng

This is a link to a free online version. No excuses now! lol

Good for you, I think that is wonderful!

Yes, we pay a 10% tithe to the Church. It brings you great blessings to do so. God opens up the windows of heaven and pours out HUGE blessings on tithe-payers. It's a marvelous commandment and you get to bless the lives of needy others at the same time.

20. ### Billy BaxterRegistered Senior Member

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102
okay, so you believe (exercise faith in) the principles of objective scientific proof. is there any way you can admit that so-called faith-based subjective experiences are also valid as proofs? Does spirituality exist in your opinion?

21. ### Truck Captain StumpyRegistered Senior Member

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735
i see you still don't understand: it doesn't matter if i "believe" or not because it's true (or factual) regardless of the belief of the observer

case in point: a man gets hit by a car and breaks his legs. he can believe he was hit by god, but regardless of what he believes, he was still hit by a car. it was not a gust of air, meteor or any other object and this is validated by not only the evidence but that you can reproduce the exact same injuries under the exact same conditions with the exact same parameters.
period

1- valid as proof of what?
2- in science? nope; in religion? this is like asking if faerie farts cause hurricanes: so long as that is what you want to believe then it will be true only to the believer... it doesn't make it reality any more than standing in a garage makes you a Toyota.

it doesn't matter what my opinion is or what spirituality is

it aint science and it aint a scientific truth in any way, shape or form
it also has nothing to do with science
nor does it really have to do with proving your beliefs with science

22. ### Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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4,142
Wow that must bring in huge ( Donald got huge from me by the way) cash flow.
That would possibly be 20,000,000 times say $50 to$100 a week.

Do you know how much the church brings in per year?

That could certainly do some good things..

Does it?

How is the money spent?

And look you could cut out a lot of paper work and just send me your contribution ... Actually don't bother I can't think of anyone I can help.

And thanks for being so open.
Again I hope your personal matters go well and of course if you think I can help do not hesitate to ask.

Alex

23. ### Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

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4,142
According to this link its only seven billion.

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_...illion-a-year-from-tithing-analysis-indicates

My estimate suggests it should be forty to fifty billion.

Is someone under declaring their income or is the church under declaring their income.

Lucky I came along it looks on the face of it either folk are not paying the proper amount or the church is not telling the correct amount.

I mean my sums are ruff but conservative.

What do you think Billy?
Alex