Capacitor to store lightning?

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by cato, Sep 21, 2004.

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  1. BennyF Registered Senior Member

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    As a matter of fact, Billy, I've been right quite often.

    On page 4 of this thread, post #70, I was the first person to say that capacitors were available with voltage ratings higher than 20 KV. I proved it with a link on page 5, post #97 to a photo of a used 100 KV cap and later, with links to brand-new caps with even higher voltage ratings. By the way, that post, and post #95 on the same page, included many links to accurate and relevant information about lightning, water electrolysis, and fuel cells that had never been mentioned on this board up until that point.

    On page 7, post #130, I told you all about some serious scientific research being done on lightning as a joint effort by the University of Florida and the U.S. Air Force, and in post #134, also on page 7, I told you all about some vehicles that had been modified to burn hydrogen instead of gasoline. Hydrogen, I remind you, is a product of the endothermic chemical reaction called water electrolysis which requires an input of DC electricity, which just happens to be one of the forces that can be produced by a well-designed, well-constructed, and well-placed lightning rod.


    So quit saying that I know nothing when in fact, I know quite a bit!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
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  3. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    Benny, all of the above is other people's work and research. Pretty much all of your own ideas are however, wrong.
     
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  5. BennyF Registered Senior Member

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    No, Phil, I was the person who published the information on this thread, even when someone else said that he wasn't aware of any capacitor that had a voltage rating higher than 20 KV. That was MY research and MY effort to educate the board, done for the benefit of all the readers of this board, even you.
     
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  7. BennyF Registered Senior Member

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    First, lightning bolts don't have millions of volts. They have HUNDREDS of millions of volts. You made a mistake of two orders of magnitude.

    Second, my electronics teacher explained capacitance using the analogy of an empty bucket. The amount of water you could add to the bucket in a given second was limited by the diameter of the open top of the bucket. Capacitance was represented by the depth of the bucket.

    As for the difference between power and energy, you're right, physics concepts didn't get a lot of coverage in the electronics school I graduated from, but your water pipe analogy is helpful.

    I want to emphasize, however, that whichever Patent Examiner gets to look at my application won't read anything about lightning in the application. It'll just be a method, hopefully workable, unpublished, and unique, for charging a capacitor without any specifications of voltage ratings, capacitance, or brand names, and without any specification of the source of the DC except for a modest statement of the polarity of the DC.

    Benny
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
  8. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    Just for fun, I re-read this entire thread last night. Numerous members, including myself, have tried to show you many times that while lightning has extremely high voltage and current...giving it great power, the duration of the discharge is so small, the total energy released is relatively small.

    Another example: A Bugatti Veyron has a large amount of power...1000 horsepower!...but if you hit the gas for only 3 milliseconds...the car will barely move. High power does not equal high energy...it is dependent on how long the power is applied.

    Hopefully workable? You mean you've never even tried breadboarding a small scale version of your mystery circuit to confirm it even works?
     
  9. BennyF Registered Senior Member

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    Then I wish that someone else besides me would tell Phil that I've made some valuable contributions to this board, thanks to the research I've been doing for the past five years, all in preparation for an application to the patent office that might just have a chance of success. I know none of you are in any position to examine my application. I haven't even filed it yet, and I've taken great pains to avoid any disqualifying description of it, but it should be apparent to all of you that I know a lot more than the average person does about lightning.


    All right, I admit it. I'm not qualified to be a college professor of physics. I AM qualified, however, to send an application to the U.S. Patent Office, and to share with this board the results of five years' of my own research.


    I have built a breadboarding apparatus out of a wooden pallet with holes drilled into it for wires to come through, but finding suitable parts to stock it with has been a challenge, and I'm afraid that if I rent an office somewhere to set up some experiments, some police officer will drop in, expecting to find a bomb factory.
     
  10. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    Yes...you have made some valuable contributions to this board. Thanks to your posts...all of us have had many good laughs.

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    Considering there is no qualification requirement for applying for a patent, that's not saying much.

    More laughs! So in others words...no...you haven't even tested your circuit yet. Another example of:

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    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
  11. BennyF Registered Senior Member

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    To simulate a short-duration burst of DC, I will charge up and then discharge a 1 KV cap (already purchased) using a piece of equipment that can convert 12v DC into a pulsed HV form. This equipment has also been purchased, along with an AC-to-12v-DC converter. I have a variety of other caps to charge up, using the discharged voltage from the 1 KV cap. These other caps will simulate, on a small scale, the HV caps that would be charged up by the lightning, possibly even multiple lightning strikes during one electrical storm, assuming that the lightning rod can attract a strike and that my storage system has the lowest impedance path to ground from the bottom of the lightning rod..

    I also have a variety of resistors to wire into my circuit experiments, but in my role as a circuit designer, I know that there is a limited amount of energy in each lightning strike to the caps, so I have designed the circuit to reduce the amount of energy that is converted to heat by the resistors to a minimum.

    Some other parts have been purchased, but I don't have all that I need right now, and as I said, I would dearly like to avoid the necessity of explaining to a police officer (or a small group of them) that I'm not building a bomb..
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I think you may have a misconception about how US patent law works. US patent law works on a "first to invent" basis - if you a) conceive an invention, b) build it and c) document it, you are covered. The patent merely gives you a better legal standing. This is in contrast to the "first to file" countries where the first person to file gets priority.

    In other words, design it, build it and patent it and you are in good shape. Even if you just design it and build it (and have even some documentation, like a description and pictures on a website) you are covered.

    Anyone with a pulse is qualified to send an application to the US Patent Office.

    You haven't even built one?

    If you want a bit of advice try this approach:

    1) Design the thing
    2) Build it and test it
    3) Get a patent on it

    Works a lot better that way.
     
  13. BennyF Registered Senior Member

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    Yahoo just announced possible changes to the patent laws. The first few paragraphs are reprinted below.



    The sweeping bill attempts to improve upon the existing patent system by mandating three things:

    First, it will transition the country to a "first to file" system, instead of the current "first to invent" approach. The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office says that issuing patents to the first person or company to file will help provide clarity in the patent-granting process. It will prevent inventors from coming out of the woodworks to challenge pending patents.

    The first to file system is the predominant rule used by the vast majority of industrialized countries throughout the world.

    Second, the patent reform bill will help provide adequate funding to the overwhelmed patent office by allowing it to set and keep its own fees. Currently, all patent-filing fees are sent to Congress, and the patent office is allocated a set amount that is unrelated to how many patents are filed for in a given year.



    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Sweeping-patent-changes-cnnm-2114030135.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=8&asset=&ccode=
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I did not mean to imply everything you have posted is false. Most of the information you have supplied which is correct is readily available at wiki etc.
    Here I was more specific:
    As far as I can recall, every thing you have posted about circuits is basically wrong. I have corrected you at least half dozen times.

    BTW I don't think anyone has said the capacitors with more than 20KV rating do not exist. I have noted that that is about the limit of the commonly available ones (In part because when working at significantly higher voltage it is hard to prevent arcs). You claim to have made a contribution to this thread by informing us that capacitors rated for more than 20KV do exist. Can you site a post where some has stated more than 20KV rated capacitors do not exist?

    I know of a special high voltage capacitor called a "Bloom line" that typically operates at 100KV or higher. It usually is "home made" just two wide plates for very low inductance separated by very high purity water as the dielectric. It is discharged in a tiny fraction of a second after charging as it will internally arc, but the very high dielectric constant of water (80 as I recall) can take that voltage for a second or so. I am not sure but think a Bloom line can deliver energy at a higher power level than any other capacitor. (Because of the very low inductance and quite high voltage).

    Many capacitors that you can buy rated for say 50KV need to operate under oil to prevent air arcs from discharging them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2011
  15. BennyF Registered Senior Member

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    More text of the article. Now that I've read it, I'm glad I haven't filed my own application yet.



    After the bill is signed, Congress will continue to allocate funds to the patent office, but any fees that the office collects in excess of its allocation would be placed into escrow. The patent office will then need to appeal to Congress to release those funds, allowing Congress to maintain a certain level of oversight.

    The patent office currently examines roughly 500,000 applications every year. Under-funding has led to a 700,000-patent backlog and a three-year waiting period for the average patent to receive final approval.

    David Kappos, director of the patent office, has estimated that the reform bill would bring in an additional $300 million, which the patent office could use to staff up and invest in much-needed IT resources. Over the course of several years, that could halve the backlog to 350,000 applications, Kappos said.

    Finally, the bill will create a post-grant review process intended to clear up legal battles before they start. The reform bill allows inventors or companies to contest the validity of a patent for nine months after it is issued. The patent office will then go back and review the case.

    The idea is to keep some of the expensive, lengthy patent fights out of the courts.

    When signed into law, the legislation will mark the first significant change to the U.S. patent system since 1952.
     
  16. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    You seem quite fixated about this patent..and with statements like this:

    ..makes me wonder...just curious...have you ever been diagnosed with mild paranoid schizophrenia? It would explain a lot....the delusions of grandeur..the hand waving of obvious evidence that conflicts with your beliefs...the almost random nature of your posts. You kinda sound like a 9/11 truther.

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  17. BennyF Registered Senior Member

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    Considering the fact that you're wrong, that's saying a lot. There are many strict standards that any application must adhere to. I've already mentioned that there are requirements just for any circuit drawings that are sent in. Lines that represent wires must be uniformly dark. If two wires cross each other, you have to be clear whether they have an electrical connection with each other or not, and every electrical component you include in your drawing must be labeled in a form that they've already specified.

    If you send in your application electronically, the patent office only allows a very limited number of file formats to be included. If you don't pay your fees on time, including the very expensive post-issuance Patent Maintenance Fee, you can lose your patent, even after it's been issued to you.

    And now that I've read the Yahoo article, I know that some unprincipled people may attempt to hijack my patent by filing their own application using the publicly-available details of my pending application, after I file it, of course.
     
  18. BennyF Registered Senior Member

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    Only because this is my first application. After I get approved for this one, If there's a second patent I could apply for, I expect to be a lot less worried about the process and the outcome.

    For the record, I have an idea for a second patent, in a completely different numbered patent class, but I haven't done anywhere near as much research on that idea as I have on this idea.

    Benny
     
  19. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    There is a strict protocol to follow to apply, but any Tom, Dick or Harry can apply for one.
     
  20. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    But you haven't even confirmed your idea works, and you are already talking about patents. Wouldn't it be wiser to actually build the thing in small scale first...then worry about a patent?
     
  21. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    In post # 60, I was the first to mention 20kv caps. I said:
    This was just what I had found after a 5 minute google search. You are correct....no one ever said that higher voltage caps don't exist. This was back when Benny was talking about "storing voltage", and converting 100's of millions of volts into 100's of billions of volts for reasons only known to him.
     
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    You've just described how to create a readable schematic, which is sort of a prerequisite for any electronics work whatsoever.

    Again, I think you may not understand how the patent system works if you're worried about that. Google "priority right."
     
  23. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    7,028
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRpAANsoG8I#t=46s

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