Case: c20 vs Atheists

Fair enough except no one is calling you delusional for not believing. The most difficult thing for me here has been that people will not accept my experiences as they are written. I am not making them up. It is easy for people to attack me with 'youv'e just swapped one addiction for another' but I tell you I have not. Maybe that's how people felt who gave up their faith, that it was a crutch for them in a difficult time of their lives? But this is not how it has been for me. The most difficult times in my own life have been whilst I have been a believer and it has been my faith that has gotten me through. My faith demands I walk on my own two feet, pick up my cross and carry it, it does not try and prop me up with false hopes or promises.
I think this whole debate would be a lot easier for all of us, if each just accept that both sides in the debate are speaking the truth from their own perspective. I and a few others believe in salvation through Jesus Christ. We have hope in Him. This is our truth. I think the trouble comes now because according to our faith, non believers go to hell. Believers say that hell is a state of existence seperated from our God. We say this because it would feel like hell to us. Now you might say "Why be afraid. Be free. Nothing can hurt you. Do not be scared of a vengful God." but the truth is that now I have experienced His love and grace, I never want to be seperated from it. It is a choice I make. I hope that I never become so self sufficient that I turn against Him in arrogance and forget who gave me life in the first place. I say these things not to condemn you for the choices you have made but rather to explain my position better.
Having a break from these forums allowed me to gather my strength and think about why the arguments flared up as they did. I do not want to argue with anyone or annoy anyone but by the same token I do not want to be called delusional for believing in the message of the bible. The same old arguments go round and round concerning faith and unbelief. The believers are somehow hateful for trusting in a God who takes vengeance on wickedness; we are portrayed as cowards for hiding behind this vengful God's coat tails whilst pointing fingers at the unbelievers. However this portrayal does not bear up in light of the way in which we live our lives.
I am happy to accept that people believe they have found a better way that does not involve kissing some God's ass. I can see the logic. However I have never felt that I have to kiss some God's ass. God has never made me feel that way although I am grateful to Him when prayers are answered in ways I couldn't have expected or He shows me something that I would have skipped right over in my own busy daily life had my eyes and ears not be open to His word.
God is patient with me when I show a lack of faith and there are times when my faith goes right out of the window. The reason God doesn't cast me off when I show a lack of faith in Him is because I never actually disown Him, I just show a lack of courage that He will be able to deliver me from whatever troubles I am facing. He always comes through for me though. This is my experience.

2 Timothy 2:11-13, “Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.”

peace

c20

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

That is because he is here, if Gravity were aloud, to be in a Christian or any religious forum as a non-believer he would be considered delusional by the majority of fundies!.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary EVIDENCE!!.

It seems that you & your comrades have been incapable of providing any evidence, that what you preach or "peddle" holds any water.

The most difficult times of my life have been while I've been an atheist, however I didn't go running to nonsense, or crutch on fake beliefs of ancient past. Your faith demands you walk on two feet, mine demands I think for my self. I'm always able to walk on my own two feet. I pick "reason" and try to solve my own problems, not wishing on whims or praying for some daddy in the sky to take care my ills, bread does not fall from the sky you know!. your faith does fill you with "false hopes and promises" what the hell do you call "living after death in heaven" that's just a fable, a promise with no validity, no proof, gives you a since of false security, I on the other hand make the best of this life, it's the only one I got, there will be no Hell, or Heaven, there is just here and now!!.

Godless.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

I am not condemning him for his unbelief nor am I trying to say he is delusional and this is a subforum called 'Religion'.

There are several witness statements to Christ's ressurection. I believe them.

We have the witness statements of the bible. This is the evidence we present to you. Our state of mind does not depend on whether you believe those witness statements or not.

Ok.

Ok. No problem.

Ok. You do not believe in the ressurection. I do. Is this the only difference between you and I? Does my belief make me an object of ridicule or is it just my belief to be respected? Do you respect my belief as I respect your right to chose not to believe in it?

peace

c20

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

c20

PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE DONT LEAVE. We need you to keep this forum alive.

 

Hehe. I doubt that. But I am happy to continue. I just needed a break. You atheists are hard work

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

peace

c20

 

And how do you get past the fact that those witness accounts differ? With regards to the ressurrection, one claim says there was one person in the tomb, another says two, another says two angels etc. The claims also differ on who went to the tomb. Surely if they were all 'real' witnesses, the stories would be the same?

Actually it does. But you know.. there are witness statements to the existence of Gilgamesh, of Zeus, of Damuzi and so on. Why do you not believe those witnesses, but instead believe witnesses to another story, that couldn't even agree with each other?

 

No were did I claim that you condemn him with delusion for his non-belief, however the fact remains if I were for example in a religious scite composed of mostly Christian and fundies and preached my atheism, I would be considered delusional, and this (I know by experience) mostly they just kick us out!!. At least here it's an open field.

There are several witness statements of UFO's do you believe them as well?.

The bible is not evidence, it is mostly fallible, bla,bla bs, and some bit of wisdom uhh!! comon sense, stuff like don't kill, don't steal, and the such, what makes the bible, more truthfull than say, book of Mormons, or Qua'ran?.

No there are more differences between us, I don't believe in faith, UFO's, Unicorsn, Heaven, Hell, or any variant of mysticism. While you on the other hand believe in the ancient rhetoric without any proof, other than ancient literature, if you were brought up in a muslim country you would be a muslim, you are a product of your enviorement, not a free thinker. I was a christian, been a babtist, and also was a choir boy for a catholic church. Got real Lucky and the preacher never showed me his wanky!!. :bugeye:

I think fundies leave themselves open to redicule by the extraordinary claims they make, not even Pat Robbinson, would claim god came to him and told him to get rid of his fortune!!. Pat is worth about a billion!!. Owns a diamond mining buisness in Africa, those poor black folkes working for this idiot get paid penuts, while he still begs for more money here!!. The Asshole!!.

You can believe what ever you want but basically when you make claims without proof, other than "you feel, the bible, or because you have faith" then you open yourself to redicule.

I have a friend, I give her a ride everyday after work, she's a Christian, she does not make extraordinary claims, she believes because she's been a christian since she was a child, she thinks a god exists, however she does not claim that she's 100% sure that one does. Basically she seeks the truth, I don't lead her to atheism, I tell her to keep reading the bible, That's how most of us that gather some "common sense" become atheists!. SouthStar is proof of that and so are many atheists. So keep reading the bible dood!!.

Godless.

 

I do not know why the Gospels are differing slightly in detail. I do not have an answer for you there. If this is why you do not believe then fair enough. It shouldn't matter to you that I can overlook the minor discrepancies in each witnesses view on the events that took place. I would be more suprised in fact if the accounts were identical since what was taking place was so amazing that one could be forgiven for finding it hard to translate into words that absolutely define what was happening externally when the truth that was being experienced internally by the witensses involved must have been quite mindblowing. I mean for this guy Jesus to be doing the miracles he did and to be talking about destroying this temple and rebuilding it in three days and then for his predictions to come true, well it must have been a real head flip for the people around him to realise that he was indeed alive and was indeed who he said he was. You have to remember that even people who knew Jesus closely did not really understand his mission. Famously Thomas said "I will not believe it until I see it" and this was someone who had witnessed the miracles and healings that Jesus performed!
I believe the message of the Gospels. I believe that Almighty God sent His son to be a sin offering for us. I believe that when Jesus said "It is finished" that the debt was paid for all sin. I believe that I have died with Him and am risen with him through my faith in him. I believe that my account with God has been wiped clean because I have believed in the redemptive work of the cross. I have not said "I have not sinned" nor am I saying that "I will not sin again" but I am saying that the price I ought to pay for the sins I have commited, has already been paid by Jesus. It was a pretty horrible price to pay and I hope I meet him one day face to face so I can wash his feet and thank him for coming to save us human beings in the flesh. Jesus is mild and gentle. This is how I experience him through the Holy Spirit. Jesus cannot abide wrongdoing or tresspassing against eachother but he knows we are going to fall down every day which is why he encourages a spirit of love and forgiveness among eachother. When we live in love, we fulfill every law there is. It is when we reject love that we are in danger of missing the point. When we miss the point we are in danger of sinning. When we sin we are in danger full stop. When we remember the blood of Jesus we understand that we live by grace since the debt we owe for not having to suffer the consequences of sin is to love one another. The blood of Jesus is not exclusive. It paid for everyone. You, me and everyone. If you think that the blood of Jesus is a myth then fair enough. I am not going to try and get you to think otherwise because your life is your life and you can think what you want. For me however, the blood of Jesus says an awful lot about God's will for man and it gives me great hope.

peace

c20

 

I never said it mattered to me, or indeed that I don't believe because of it. I merely asked how you get beyond the fact that witness accounts differ - and thus it means that some of those accounts must be false. You say you don't know why they differ, which is fair enough, and go on to say that perhaps they were so shell shocked that they couldn't write down the truth. However, it doesn't really answer the question. Do you just ignore the differences and consider it all true regardless to what is written? Who do you regard as the witnesses given that we can't justify that because the claims of who went to the tomb differ?

Would you adopt this same approach with any other subject, or do you merely ignore the errors in this one instance because you want it to be true more than care whether it actually is or not?

 

I have not attacked you here or any other forum. I am sorry if you have not received a warm welcome everywhere. You are right in that this is an open field. I am sure I would be much more warmly received on a Christian only forum but where would the fun in that be

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

I have seen some mad stuff in the night sky too. Don't know if they were aliens or what though. I guess thats why they call them unidentified flying objects.

Well at least we can deduce what you believe about the bible from that statement. This is your point of view of course.

I don not know why I say it is more truthful. I guess it is because of the Jesus character. The death and ressurection. I can believe that God would have wholeheartedly approved of Jesus' life because I can imagine God loving Jesus and His wisdom. I can imagine God saying to us "This is my son. Listen to him." The God of Jesus is my God. The only one that will do me. No other God's say it like the God of Jesus for me. For me He is the One God, the maker of the heavens and the earth.

Fair enough. Its a fair statement.

I disagree with you about what I am. I am indeed a free thinker. I have a brain and free will. Just like you. I can love and hate just like you or any muslim or mormon.

And the relevance of that was?

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

What that God loved the world so much that He sent His only Son into the world to pay the price for sin, once and for all time? I do not mind being ridiculed for claiming that. I would rather not be and of course I would rather everyone had the same faith as mine but like I say, I expect ridicule to a certain degree, especially on a forum of this nature.

I have no idea who Pat Robinson is. Sorry.

It's a shame you feel you must ridicule, but if you must...

I have been believing for some 14 years. I have not always kept faith during that time but when I see how faithful God is to me time and time again I cannot disown Him. My God is personal to me. He is personal in my experiences, He understands my strengths, my weaknesses. I know Him in prayer. I know His love. I try to be loving in response. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong, but as long as I keep trying it cannot be a bad thing can it? God usually helps me to clear up the mistakes one way or other. It's a good way to learn.

Peace

c20

 

How can you blame anyone blinded by the things of the world and principalities of darkness?

Hey do you have an instant messenging service where I can get in touch with you? Everyone seems to want a piece of you :bugeye: and we never get to talk really.

 

Medicine Woman and Gravity,

I have spent the past couple of days wondering if I even wanted to post out here again. I found another thread to post in but stayed away from this one on purpose. You both had me very frustrated and hurt, and beyond that, the way that you have responded to me recently makes me want to not participate in this forum anymore, and that's a shame...for me anyway.

I don't understand why it is that we can't have an intelligent discussion, even if our views and beliefs differ. I've got MW "reading between the lines" of my posts, and making assumptions about me based not upon what I do say, but "what I don't say". Which must be really convenient for you MW, because that way, you can pretty much make up whatever you want to about me, and post it out here, misrepresenting me to someone else, as if you're some close personal friend of mine, or a family member, or my shrink, or someone that I have told these things about myself to in private conversation. The fact is that you are none of these things, and I have never told you any of these things in private. The fact is that you are egotistically making assumptions about me that you have absolutely no validation of, and that is not right. I don't come out here and post assumptions that I've made about your "inner self", based upon nothing more than what I would like to believe about you. It would never occur to me to do such a thing. I respond to what you "do say" not what you don't say, and I read "the actual lines" that you post and not between them, and I am asking you to please treat me with the same respect. The whole point of this discussion forum dynamic is to post information and respond to that information which is posted.

Do you know what a facade is? It's a false front. False as in lie. I do not have a facade. I may not be able to share with you everything that is me out here on this forum, but with me, what you see is what you get. I don't put on a front, and I don't lie, and I don't keep things hidden. I have nothing to hide. So from now on if you want to know something about me, just ask, but please do not assume what you do not know to be true.

And then I have Gravity doing basically the same thing, only in a much more hateful manner. Is what you guys have done even "legal" on this forum? Is it really ok to make up a fictitious quote and slap someone's name on it, saying "this is what she really means"? It shouldn't be...because again, it goes directly against the whole dynamic of this forum. Respond to what I DO say, not what I DON'T say. And do not make up quotes and slap my name on them. I can speak for myself just fine, and others can read my own words just fine. The quote that you made up in my name is not my sentiment at all and is completely false, and you did it maliciously, and it was wrong.

And if this happens to me again, I'm going to take it up with a moderator. I have absolutely no problems speaking for myself, and will have no one else out here speaking erroneously on my behalf. I have a right to express my own ideas and beliefs in this discussion forum in the way I see fit, and to not be slandered by someone posting "what they wished I would have said", or "what they think I really meant" or "how they think I really feel but am just not saying so". If you have a question for me, or if something I've said is unclear, then just ask, and I will gladly respond with an answer or an explanation. THAT is the dynamic of a discussion forum.

I also think that slinging accusations like "liar", "delusional", "psychotic", and "homocidal", clearly without evidence is completely out of line. I mean, if you don't agree with something I post, then don't agree, and feel free as to post as why that is. Post your arguement...post something intelligent...post some contradictory evidence or ideology...but don't just attack maliciously with name-calling and crazy accusations. It's just lame.

I really would like to continue to post out here without feeling like I constantly have to defend my character, not based upon my actual words, but based upon unfounded and biased assumptions that some choose to make about me. Can't we just discuss the topics at hand in a fair and mature manner? That would be really cool.

Love,

Lori

 

Lori,

This is SCIforums.com . . . not FAITHforums.com -- to expect that in this place religion will be handled with kid gloves seems a bit naive.

Would I expect non-theism to be handled gently in a faith-based forum? No.

And as to all your pointing at us for not being "fair and mature" - let me quote you again:

xxoo

 

I choose to believe the bible because it speaks to me. To be honest there is a lot of stuff in there which makes me feel very uncomfortable, very uncomfortable indeed. The bible convicts me that I have fallen way short of what I was supposed to be. The moment I start to think about having to give account for all my actions I start to panic. There is stuff I have done that might seem minor in the grand scheme of things but that same stuff I would feel very uncomfortable confessing. The bible says "Look, no one is perfect, no one is good except God." << This sets me free a bit. Then the bible says "God declares you not guilty when you believe in Jesus", then the bible says "The only debt we have to God is to love one another."
All of these messages speak to me about God's will for man. God is not happy condeming man but God is also not happy that man continues to do the things he does paying no attention to the God of love, the maker of the heavens and the earth. This is not because God is vain as many people say but rather because He is holy and cannot bear the wrongs we do to eachother. God is right to condemn sin and save the sinner but the sinner must understand that it is by grace that he is restored. Grace given because God loves us. When we come to understand this grace, we find ourselves asking boldy for things that will help us in our life. Not stuff like "Can I please have a million pounds" but rather "I want to live forever please" or "Please give me insight and understanding into what I am and what my purpose is."
Your heavenly father is more than capable of giving you good things. Faith is important though. You cannot please God without faith.
Would I treat other subjects like this? Yeah I guess. I dont pick a subject and then try and use the subject matter to discredit the learning. I guess I could discredit anything if I tried hard enough. I would think that if the bible was a con, then the authors would have tried their hardest to make the gospels identical in content. The minor discrepancies actually add to its authenticity in my mind. The message is more important than the detail to be honest. The message has a real impact on the way I live my life and it is a very very positive thing. I think much more carefully before I act these days, try not to be so impetuous, try not to judge people without giving them the benefit of the doubt etc etc. I am not perfect by any means but now that I love God with all my being, I do find it easier to love my neighbour as myself.
Still a long way to go, but I feel like I am on the right path now whereas before I came to faith I was seriously going nowhere.

peace

c20

 

Pretty much everyone keeps at least something hidden in my opinion. If this is a possible reference to me, what facade did I put on? I have referred to my opinion, but I don't like to try to be offensive about it. So you may have seen many

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

's, "winking sardonically".. And what is wrong with that? Have you seen me on this forum personally insult anyone? Haven't I pretty much been talking about peoples' IDEAS, and not personally insulting those people? Have you seen me on this forum call you or C20 delusional or a liar? Funny thing though, I've seen a not so veiled insult or two at me. Maybe, just maybe, I wanted to "put my feet down" here before saying something personal about my life. Then again, this forum is not exactly about one's personal life, but it kind of turned out that way. Have I said anywhere on this forum I was a happy go lucky individual? I'm a private person, I don't like sharing everything about myself with everyone. And you are too, I believe, when it really comes down to it.

If you think hiding something in your life is a lie, then I suppose that makes just about everyone a liar in doing so. I don't think one concealing something about that one's life makes that one a liar necessarily. To me, it could make someone a private person who perhaps doesn't want to publicly announce details about that one's life which that one doesn't want publicly announced. I put things in my life out in the open for people to see. And there was at least one reference-one of the music links I posted.

People who could connect the dots, like Jenyar or MarcAC and whoever else, could have seen it. Did you want me to come out and say "Please, please, everyone see me, let me explain my life to everyone"?

I questioned why I joined this forum in the first place. I didn't know any of the members here when I first started posting. Maybe, just maybe, I've felt more comfortable in divulging things about my life in the open. And is this so wrong? Do you divulge your personal information to people you feel you can't trust or don't have a good feeling about who they are?

So, apparently some of the forum members think I'm insane and at least one appears to think I'm idiotic. I don't really have a problem with that opinion, and I am not really claiming that I'm some model of "sanity" or "intelligence".

That being said, I do apologize for my assumptions.

 

It seems to me that the one thing Lori does not expect here is that religion is treated with kid gloves. I don't suppose she wants to be exactly treated with kid gloves either, but there are limits. I'm afraid I agree that M*W's assessment of Lori's character was wholly unwarranted and certainly did not agree with my own "reading between the lines", to the extent that it was needlessly insulting. MW has attempted some justification but Gravity, your posts are really are beyond the pale!! I saw no justification for calling Lori a "psycho-brain", and you keep taking that quote from her post out of context.

We have plenty of opportunity here to strongly criticise Bible-quoting, the-rest-of-us-are-going-to-Hell, closed-minded Christian proselytes, particularly when their Christianity allows them to indulge in homophobia, anti-Semitism and general bigotry. But I just don't see Lori's posts that way. She's describing a personal religious experience that neither we nor "regular" Christians (for whom she has expressed some contempt) are ever going to shake through rational debate - let alone name calling. And she has let us into personal details about her life which indicate, at least, why she needs Him so badly. I don't see that this is any reason to throw insults in her direction - precisely the opposite, in fact, since she has consented to bare her personal history to such an extent.

anonymous2, no, it was MW who said that Lori's belief in Christ was a facade - as far as I know you were not referenced at all in Lori's post.

 

This is where we disagree.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

I read enough of it to see my own sentence structure, etc.. if I'm "reading between the lines" here incorrectly, then I am, and I apologize, but I doubt I am. Her post, in my opinion, was at least a veiled reference to me.

 

I'm not asking for kid gloves, I'm asking for intelligent mature debate and/or conversation without you making up quotes with horrible sentiments and attaching my name to them, or calling me names, or making horrible assumptions about me that are completely unfounded by anything I've presented here.

And you know what I find? I find that just about anywhere you go, in just about any group, faith-based, science-based, anything-based, there are always a few bad apples that attempt to spoil the whole bunch.

And if you didn't understand what I was talking about in the quote, then you could have asked, or you could have simply commented on what you thought I meant, but you didn't do that. You made up a fictitious quote in my name to have me say what you really wanted me to say...you know, since my quote did not actually say that.

It is very clear in the Book of Revelation that this earth will be destroyed by fire. There will be all kinds of horrible manifestations of God's wrath. After that is when His Kingdom arrives on earth. This is the eternal Kingdom that is without sin that I'm always talking about. This will be a much, much, much, much better place than this earth is now...no more sin. You know, you atheists are always accusing God of being so malicious and sadistic as to allow a world like the one we have now....with sin in it, and all of the devastating effects of it...all of the horrible suffering and pain and violence that people have to endure. And what I'm saying is that I don't like it either...not one bit. And yes, I will be one happy mf'er when I get to live in a world that is so much better than this...one that is without sin....one in which Jesus Christ is King and His law and His love reign supreme.

And like I said, if I had my way, I would take every last one of you with me where I'm going. You always want to accuse Christians of trying to shove their beliefs down your throat right? All I want to do out here is to witness...to share what I've found in Him...so that others like you can find it to....so that you can be saved from this hell! So make up your mind would you? You blame me for shoving my beliefs down your throat, and then turn around and blame me for not wanting to save you or for not caring about what happens to you. I do care, and I'm sure you don't really want to know that, because I think that as long as you get to blame me for something, you're happy.

The fact is that no matter what I do or what I say, the choice is yours and I can't make it for you, and I know that very well. But I sincerely wish something better for you...I wish that you knew what I know...then you would understand.

And maybe you'd back off my nuts a bit huh?

Love,

Lori

 

Anonymous,

No, no, that comment was not directed at you at all, but at MW specifically. She had the nerve to explain to someone else on this forum, on my behalf, that I was putting on a facade. Apparently she thinks this of everyone, which I'm sure that it is true to an extent, and applicable to some. Um, she described this difference between the "true" inner self, and the "false" outer self...describing the outer self as a facade. She then went on to describe to this person what she knew my true inner self to be! Based upon absolutely nothing except sheer imagination and speculation, which I found to be really arrogant and assuming. I'm a really honest person....sometimes it seems to a fault almost, but I can't help it. I hate lies...I hate them. Lies destroy...they kill...they reduce the gift of life down to nothing but a "movie"...for purposes of entertainment only...when the real purpose is supposed to be to learn! How can you learn from a lie? In my life I have believed lies that have cost me so much...and caused me so much pain...and that have killed. And I see people do this all around me in the world as well, and I hate it. That's what sin is you know...our condition is a propensity to be attracted to and to believe lies that in turn hurt us and kill us. I hate lies. I'm not afraid to be wrong...I'm not afraid to admit that I don't know everything there is to know...I'm not afraid to learn something new...it's the purpose of my life...to learn. So who needs a facade? Fuck facades.

And you know anonymous, you have been absolutely wonderful to me since I've been posting out here, and I enjoy discussing with you very much. You are one of the people out here that makes this a fun and productive place to be. So thank you. Sincerely, thank you very much for the humility and the respect that you show me and others out here...it is greatly appreciated.

*smooch* Lori

 

Fair enough.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Sorry for the misinterpretation.