Case: c20 vs Atheists

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by c20H25N3o, Nov 10, 2004.

  1. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    10,515
    If you would care to read the name of the forum you're in it's "religion". Hence the discussion of religion. And the reason that c2o and I get on your nerves the most is because we speak of the love of Jesus Christ, and of a personal relationship with Him. And you are not in any way "giving it back". We speak of the most pure and unconditional love that we've ever known, and so are very compelled to share this news with others, and it very apparently threatens you...this love....this knowledge of Christ....and so you, in fear, give hate in response...which transitions well into your next quote...


    Speak for yourself...such is YOUR life...you pitiful thing. And character attacks my ass...your words speak for your character very well. Trust me, I could never in my wildest dreams imagined someone to be so hateful and close-minded. At first I thought that you were just a teenager, which would explain your arrogance...in ignorance. Now that I know you're not, I find you very disturbing. Trying to talk to you actually reminds me alot of trying to talk to my ex-husband...which explains why he's my "ex"...and also unfortunately explains why he's since been committed to and chained to a bed in a secured psychiatric ward of a hospital on two different occasions. He's paranoid and afraid and hateful like you too. He hears voices in his head that make him think there's some vast conspiracy against him and it makes him appear to be crazy...it also makes him very unhappy. You remind me of him. I've prayed about it, and Jesus told me that my ex is going to be healed...and come to know Him as I do...to be born again. And I truly pray the same for you as well. I feel sorry for you. It must suck to carry around all of that hate and fear inside. I hope for something better for you.

    How it is is pretty damn obvious Gravity...after all, it's all written down...all she and anyone else has to do is to read it. Gravity, Heart and I have been friends for over 5 years and we know each other very well and personally. We met out here actually, on this forum, way back then. But since, have remained in close touch for the most part, and shared our personal lives...she's even lived with me for a short while. She is not a Christian, and has some pretty serious concerns about Christianity and the Bible as well...let's say an aversion to it. She and I are very different...see things very differently, and yet are able to share everything, and talk openly and honestly about everything, while remaining very close friends. I love her very much...she is the best friend...like my sister. So in knowing me very well, and being very familiar with what I actually do think, and how I actually am..what I'm all about...AND also being "anti-christian" as you are...makes her a very good objective opinion. After all, I'm not arguing with your opinion about organized religion...I'm arguing with your opinion of me. Because you are wrong about me, and are blindly equating me with something that I'm not about. You are stereotyping me and assuming things about me that are completely untrue...actually quite the opposite of how I actually am. And it's really very disturbing and weird to witness, as I have written my views and opinions on these matters, and you just simply ignore them or say I'm lying and continue to slander me with what you want to believe about me anyway...it's weird...you're weird. So why don't you stop it. Why don't you calm down and get real for a minute and actually listen for once to what I have to say. I dare you to actually ask me a question instead of dictating my answer for me preemptively. What's the matter Gravity? Are you scared? Quit being such a pussy. That's what scares you isn't it? It's the fact that I DON'T fit into the mold that you have cut out for me. That's why you have to twist my words around and make up fictitious quotes for me and assume things about me. Cause you can't handle the truth.

    Love,

    Lori
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2004
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  3. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    Sounds like a love triangle!.

    Chucks sorry Gravity

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    Hey I'm here to defend my friend Gravity; Heart you claim she's not in any "mold" once she professes her belief, and preaches here on Sci, she's in a MOLD! allright, we call them the (fundis.)

    As for what she accomplished, well good for her, she should have sat on her ass and let god provide, her with a house, car, and good pention plan. Everyone has to earn a living, even if you belief in Santa Claus.

    Lori, it's silly to vent out so much anger, WWJD?.

    Jesus is coming and boy is he pissed!!. Mainly at christian themselves for fucking it all up!!.

    Godless.
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    Godless that is beautiful!

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    Wipes tears of laughter from eyes...
     
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  7. heart Registered Senior Member

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    The "mold" that I was speaking about was the stereotypical one that Gravity was talking about in regards to organized religion not the label of her being a christian. Just because she is a christian does not put her into that mold --not any more than say all heavy metal music lovers use drugs and have orgies.

    I'll admit that I have not read every single thread out here that Lori has posted in so I cannot attest to her preaching or not. From my own debates with Lori she has not preached at me. She has only spoke of her own experiences and perhaps used the bible as a reference here or there to make a point. If that qualifies as preaching then well so what? I think it's totally unrealistic to expect someone of any religious faith not to be able to use religious materials e.g. bible, koran, etc when debating in a RELIGIOUS forum. That's much like putting in a sports forum and having a sub forum to that titled Soccer. BUT, the rules are you cannot use any soccer manuals as reference or give any tips which you have found useful in certain maneuvers when you have played soccer. What the heck are you suppose to speak about in a soccer forum when you want to eliminate the sources which to explain soccer???

    I'm curious as to why you would make the comment above, Godless. Unless this would be an example of how you think all christians believe? As in putting Lori into that "mold" which we have been discussing. I know this might come as a shocker to you, but, Lori doesn't expect her God to provide everything for her while she sits on her ass. Even the Bible says a man who does not work does not eat. God didn't make the ark for Noah-- he gave him directions on how to build it and Noah was the one that built it. Keeping in mind I'm not a christian but Lori is and therefore I was using examples of her faith--not to be confused with "preaching".
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2004
  8. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    Ok, that's funny...and I'm sick of playing too...it's pointless..."you're this" and "you're that" and talking about personalities...who cares? I'd rather talk about Jesus.

    And I suppose that only works out here for Christians right? I mean, you have no other molds right? To be fair then, you would have to say that anyone who comes out here and professes their belief, and preaches it here on Sci, would be in a mold. We could then have an atheist mold, and agnostic mold, a Hindu mold, a Buddist mold, a new age spiritualist mold. Are you a racist too? Cause what you're saying here is just plain wrong and scary. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that labeling people with prejudice and stereotyping is wrong and dangerous. They teach it on Sesame Street for God's sake. What is wrong with you people?!?! No one is the same and everyone should be allowed to be and appreciated for the unique individuals that they are, and to suggest anything to the contrary is just plain stupid and moves us all back a couple hundred years in enlightenment. I guess that some of us have learned and some of us haven't. Yea, in my town, I still see people who wave confederate flags on their front porches or paint them on their cars, and shockingly enough I've had people attempt to tell me racist jokes and use the "n" word in my presence. Yea, some people are stupid alright.



    You know why she said that...in response to Gravity's stupid and childish comments about his accomplishments vs my accomplishments. I swear he sounds as if he's five years old doing this shit. The fact is that what I have succeeded in accomplishing on my own is shit...it's a big pile of rubble that I'd like to set on fire and watch burn. Even though God has definitely kept me through it all, and provided for me through it all, everything I've done without Him has failed miserably...in that it just didn't get me what I needed. I've had all kinds of acheivements, but none of which fulfilled me...none brought me the peace and love and joy and fulfillment that I have found in Christ. I have since seen a glimpse of my future in Him...at my redemption and at the restoration of my life...at the blessings that He has to bestow upon me...and those that He has already...at my purpose in His will...at the plan that He has for my life....at what He will accomplish through me and through my life, because I have given it to Him. And man, am I ever blown away. Absolutely blown away...in awe...just completely in awe of how graceful and loving and forgiving and powerful and amazing He is. I don't deserve any of it...it's definitely not about deserving it. But I have never been so fulfilled, or felt more peace, and love, and joy, as I do right now, and because of Him, and it's just gonna keep on getting better and better and better. And I'm so excited and happy. There is nothing in this world that could ever give me what He has given me...not even close.


    I'm not angry...appalled yea, angry no. To tell you the truth, I would imagine that Gravity and I share some common ideals and beliefs regarding organized religion and politics, but who could ever say because he's not interested in finding out what I think about anything, because apparently he knows what I think without ever asking. Because he's prejudice. And yea, being assaulted with prejudice, that is a lie, is very frustrating. I don't like it any more than you would.


    In a way you're right. But the truth is that nothing can thwart the will of God. And the Christians only fuck up what you allow them to fuck up. After all, it is the unbelievers who choose to believe the lies of heretics and hypocrites in order to justify their denial of Christ. That's why Gravity and you want to put me in the mold so badly. You don't want me to be different. You don't want the truth. You want me to be some stupid hypocritical evil asshole so that you can point to me and say, "See? That is why I don't want to know anything about Jesus." You call these hypocrits stupid and evil and yet at the same time you believe them whole-heartedly, and in so doing, allow them to decide what you believe about Jesus for you. Which is a really bad idea, and in reality, makes you no better than they, as you are both sticking your heads in the sand in denial of the truth about God, and choosing to believe lies that justify your own self-serving intentions. Neither side really wants to know the truth. Those who sincerely want to know the truth, are given the truth by Him, and are born again because of it.

    Love muffins,

    Lori
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2004
  9. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    4,197
    What truth?.
    No one has been able to describe, the truth you speak about. What truth, that you can't explain what god is, of if "it" exists.

    As to steoreotype, what the hell do you think I deal with every single day?. Most people when they find out I'm an atheist they feel sorry for me, as if I was sick or some shiet like that!.

    What the goody-toosho you "feel" is purely on you, you can't prove to anyone that a god exists, or that theres any truth of his existence.

    Gravity used to be Pastor, I had been a choir boy, SouthStar changed his views here on the forum, I sought the truth in the bible, and was un-able to make any sense of it's inconsistencies. The bible has been the best weapon that I use against theists, of all things SouthStar became aware of the contradictions after pointing them out, and rehashing and pointing them out again, and again.

    You'r a christian, hey I can live with that, however when you speak of your experiences and claim that you "feel" this does not give any "emperical" evidence of a supreme deity. I used to feel it too, I used to believe it too, so did Gravity, SouthStar and many atheist here on sci-forums were of one denomination or another.

    Please don't burn your belongings, give them away instead, remember; (It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to get into heaven.)

    Thus that line above shows the true consequences of the church the envy of those who have made success here in this earth, Christianity is closer to Communism than any other religion.

    Godless.
     
  10. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    10,515
    Well, the truth that I'm referring to is that God does indeed exist, and Jesus is His Son, and that the Bible is true, and in particular, the only reason that I know that is because I have this personal relationship with Him...this spiritual interaction. And while I can not "show you" the spiritual interaction itself, I can attest to it, and tell you all about it...describe it, describe Him, and describe the effects that it's had on me and on my life. Which I have done to some degree, and you know what I get when I do right? I'm either told by some that I'm a liar, or delusional, or they simply ignore what I actually say and respond to me as if I had said that I decided to believe all of this because it is written, or because some man said so, or some organization supports it, or it's doctrine fits in well with my lifestyle...blah, blah, blah.


    Well, I don't feel sorry for you, and I don't think that you're sick either...that's ridiculous. And I would point out that you can not prove to anyone that God does not exist. I on the other hand do have some really serious evidence in the works and to present...I need some help from the other person involved...other people involved...this rock star in particular that I keep talking about. There is a mountain of evidence...it's a trip...I've never in my life heard of anything like what's happened to me. There will of course be people who will refuse to believe us regardless of the mountain...saying that it's a hoax or it's a lie...people believe whatever they want to regardless of evidence, that is clear. And that is why that when it comes right down to it, the only One who can prove God's existence to you is God Himself. Which He has most undoubtedly to me.


    Gravity used to be a Pastor?!?!?!?!?!?!?! *picking my jaw up off the floor*

    I wonder if he treated people the same way when he was a Christian? The whole "if you don't walk, talk, eat, breath, and shit the way I do, you're an evil asshole idiot". So many people who are involved in organized religion are like that...so self-righteous and judgemental...holier than thou. I wonder if that's where he learned this behaviour? I don't know...now that I think about it, it makes sense. The degree of fear and hatred that he has towards Christians is way over the top...far past the normal run of the mill digust that I and so many others feel towards their hypocrisy and/or misrepresentation of our Saviour. It makes sense that with him, it's personal. Who knows what horrific behaviour he was subjected to in the name of Jesus. Whatever it was, I wish that he would take it up with Jesus Himself.

    See, that's the thing...that's the difference between us. I did not, for the gazillionth time, seek the truth from the Bible. I attempted to rely on my intellect and a book for a while to seek the truth but found that it was futile...the proof that I was seeking could not be found that way. So I sought proof from God Himself, and He gave it to me, through a spirit to spirit interaction. That interaction is the only way that I know what I know.


    Ok, but I wonder what you mean by "feel". Do you mean "think"...as in intellectualize? Or do you mean you had a spiritual phenomenon occur in you and to you that knocked you on your ass and changed you forever and turned your whole life upside down? What's happened to me is much more than a feeling. I've experienced what it's like to have a spirit inhabit my body, while I was in a trance-like state, I witnessed this spirit write 21 paragraphs of prose with my hand...all for some rock star who had been deceived by demons into taking the mark of the beast, and had consequentially spent the past seven years of his life spiritually dead. His music being the catalyst that drew me in to help him. I hear God's voice speak to me...He said things like "Write him a letter" (and 21 paragraphs of prose came out)...He said "send him flowers"...the prose was actually supposed to be just a little "get well soon" note to accompany the flowers...He said "Rock star is Joey Spagota", which is the name of my childhood imaginery friend and the topic of the second set of prose. He has given me visions and dreams that He has interpreted to me and taught me by. He has miraculously ridden me of severe addictions overnight. I have heard an invisible bird sing to me in my back yard with the most loud and beautiful voice I've ever heard...there was no bird there that you could see. I have sat on my couch and had this rock star and an angel or some other being, in the spirit so that I could not see, hear, or touch them, stand before me and give me a hug and a kiss...I felt it and it set something in motion in my life that everyone around me witnessed...something very very powerful. I have sat on my couch and watched a piece of paper with the rock star's band's po box address on it crumple up into a ball all on it's own...while at the same time watching the plastic wrap on a package of stationery and envelopes become tighter and tighter...shrinking right in front of my eyes...to the point at which the evelopes were being pushed out of the package...all within a couple of minutes...and all to let me know not to mail the second set of prose to the rock star. Ok, this is the kind of stuff that I've experienced...and not all of what I've experienced by a long shot. And all of what has happened in relation to the rock star will be verified by him very soon.

    So what I'm saying to everyone out here is that what has happened to me is a major spiritual phenomenon. I'm not, and I never will be, no matter how much you may want me to be, be referring to something I read in a book, or following some dogma, or subscribing to some doctrine, because I have intellectualized it and determined that it's probably true or that it makes sense or that I understand it, or that it works well within my lifestyle, or agrees with my personality or my choices in life. It's just not about that at all.


    You're right...I wasn't really serious about burning them. I'm just really, really "over" them. I was speaking metaphorically because I'm so ready to just move on. I will give them away.


    Love,

    Lori
     
  11. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    Lori,

    Unfortunately what you cannot do is show that these things you believe are different from your imagination, which is an infinitely more plausible explanation of your claims.

    This does not matter since there is nothing that requires that God actually exists in the same way that the other infinite number of imaginary objects cannot be shown to not exist.

    But as yet you cannot show any evidence beyond your imaginative claims.

    Yet if it was truly such a large quantity then at least some skeptics would be able to see it. But I don’t particularly need a mountain of evidence and would settle for just a simple small piece of unambiguous certain proof. Can you do that simple task instead?

    Clearly it is not undoubted since I doubt you.

    Again can you show that this is not simply your imagination at work?

    But he is just another figment of your imagination so no verification will ever happen.
     
  12. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    10,515
    Thanks Chris...that was very enlightening.

    Love you,

    Lori
     
  13. DeeCee Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,793
    Ok, seems there's two options open here, either..

    1. An all powerful supernatural being invented the universe and has a 'personal' relationship with Lori.

    Or

    2. Lori is deluded.

    Now let me think.....
    Dee Cee
     
  14. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,515

    DeeCee,

    You are absolutely right...there is no in between. It's one or the other and there is no middle ground. That's what I don't get about my friends and family right now...given what I have told them regarding what has happened to me especially within the past year and relating to this miracle that I keep talking about. I myself readily admit and point out to them that either God is real and He really is who He says He is in the Bible, or I am certifiably nuts...and I don't mean just a little nuts, I mean severely delusional to the point in which I need to be hospitalized, medicated, or treated in some capacity. Yet, I have shared all of this with my friends and family...told them all of the things that I've seen and heard and experienced...and I am not being "treated". Why? Because they know me...they interact with me on a daily basis...they've known me my entire life, and because of this, they know that I am not delusional or insane...it's very apparent to them. Otherwise, trust me, my family would have me treated...they would have me to a doctor...if they thought it in my best interest, they wouldn't hesitate to have me committed. My family loves me and would do anything to help me and take care of me...we're very close. But they can not justify or rationalize doing such a thing...no matter how crazy my story sounds. They see me everyday...happy, healthy, sane, productive, intelligent, peaceful, loving, and drug free. And the fact is that they can not reconcile my story with my state of mind...the two do not "match"...they seem to contradict one another. I've never attested to something so over the top crazy sounding in my life, and at the same time, I've never been so happy, healthy, and fulfilled in all of my life. So, the only option that they're left with is that I'm completely sane and rational, except for in regards to this one very specific thing, and in regards to that, I'm over the top crazy and extremely delusional. Which doesn't make sense. People who are delusional, are not just delusional regarding just one very specific thing, and then completely rational and sane about everything else...it's just not the way it works. So they don't reconcile it, and they just try not to think about it, they don't talk about it, and hope that I don't bring it up either, and hope that it just "goes away". It's not going away. Because it actually happened...I'm not making this shit up.

    Love,

    Lori


    PS...and DeeCee, I would love to know what it is that you're "thinking" about...since you've never met me and don't know me, how could you ever hope to make that judgement call? Wouldn't it be impossible for you given your lack of knowledge of me and my life and my state of mind? So what are you thinking? As usual...you're thinking whatever you want to believe whether it makes sense to do so or not....whether it is based upon objective truth or not...right?
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2004
  15. Lemming3k Insanity Gone Mad Registered Senior Member

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    1,180
    Lori, theres a possibility that your relationship with god is, in a way, delusional, but you sincerely believe it is real, and since you're not hurting anyone with it, i see no reason you should be 'treated' for anything, people believe in ghosts, people that dont believe may see these people as delusional but most will say 'i dont believe you, but you arnt doing any harm so we'll leave you be', thats really a caring, understanding attitude such as the one i'd expect your family to have towards you, however as you say, we dont know you, and also that means we couldnt trust in you, but we do know you really believe in what you say, but people are unlikely to change their views to agree based on what you believe as it may or may not be, well, for want of a better word, real.
    Either way, why the big debate? You say its real, others say it isnt, theres not a lot more to it from what i've read, proof is a different matter entirely(but i've yet to read any) and is far more than one persons views im afraid and i fail to understand why you continue these discussions when they wont have an impact on anyone, but your views are interesting all the same.
     
  16. fahrenheit 451 fiction Registered Senior Member

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    323
    lori: I have brother just like you, swears jesus has spoken to him personally.
    I love my brother, and though I think he's a complete nut, I would never tell him so or have him committed.
    he's happy in his delusion.
    but to a complete stranger, or somebody on a forum, I can tell them exactly what I think.
    your family and friends are just cositing you, they now your quite mad, but love you all the same.
     
  17. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    You guys would have to admit as well, that there is the possibility that what I'm attesting to is the truth. Or have you learned that you know all there is to know in this life? You certainly don't suppose that just because someone experiences something that you have not experienced that they are delusional do you? Cause it sounds like that it what you're saying...that you can't be wrong. Is that correct?

    Love,

    Lori
     
  18. Lemming3k Insanity Gone Mad Registered Senior Member

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    Who knows who is right and wrong? And of course possibility you're right is there, but if someone tells you they experience allahs spirit and islam is the only correct religion etc, do you believe you cant be wrong? Or there may be truth in what they say? Possibility that you are delusional is also there or that we are right, possibility that theres a planet out there made of cheese exists(since it cant be the moon anymore) so it does work both ways of course, possibility isnt enough to believe something because possibilities are endless. Does that help explain things better?

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  19. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Lori,

    No. No one has yet shown that the types of things you claim are possible. You would need to show that your claims are selectable from the set of all possibilities, for example an analogy - given a dice with a known 6 sides you would need to show that the dice really has seven sides and that you have thrown the number 7. Until then there is no reason to believe that 7 is a possibility.

    We don’t know these are real experiences since all we see are only claims of experiences, and without independent verifiable evidence your claims are improbable and lack credibility. I.e. there is no reason to believe you until you can show something more concrete.

    No not really – it is simply a matter of credibility and your claims have none.
     
  20. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2004
  21. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,515
    Can I ask you all a question? Why is it that you would rather believe that I am delusional or have experienced some "momentary" schizophrenia (which actually would not apply as it is ongoing, only in relation to the Holy Spirit in particular and nothing else), than to believe that what I've experienced is true? I mean, Fahrenheit, don't you think it's a little too coincedental that me and c2o and your brother all attest to the very same thing happening to us and yet we don't know each other and have not corroborated and have absolutely no reason to lie about it. Which also negates the delusion arguement, as how would all of us be delusional regarding the exact same thing? And it's not just us...there are plenty of people who are born again who attest to the very same thing as we have experienced. You guys think that this is what...a coincedence? A conspiracy? What you are proposing is not logical. By evidence, which would be the sheer number of testimony to the exact same thing, and also the effects of this "phenomenon" that can be witnessed in our lives (the fruit of the spirit)...the odds are that what we're saying is true, and what we have experienced is real. So I wonder, why is it that you guys are so dead set against the thought of it?

    Love,

    Lori
     
  22. Lemming3k Insanity Gone Mad Registered Senior Member

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    What about the millions of people that dont experience it? Does that mean it isnt real by sheer number of testimony that it hasnt happened to them? It does work both ways you know. Also there isnt a requirement of meeting someone for them to share your feelings, almost wherever you grow up there is religious influence and some people believe in religion so bad they convince themselves they have gods spirit with them etc etc, just like the many millions of people that convince themselves they can sing or play the guitar(or other instruments) when they are clearly tone deaf.
     
  23. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,515
    Well, some people may, but I don't. And I'm sorry, but it just seems so overwhelmingly closed-minded of you to say that...and arrogant. I never wanted to be religious...shit, I'm still not religious...not in the cultural sense. Like I wanted to fit in with the churchies? I still don't fit in with the churchies. The churchies aren't going to want to hear what I have to say any more than the atheists and the new age hippies. And no, it doesn't work both ways. To experience something in interaction is evidence of somethings existence. To not experience something in interaction is only evidence that you haven't experienced the interaction, not that something doesn't exist. For example...I've never been to China. Some people live in China, and some travel there to visit...business or vacation maybe. These people who have been there have experienced this place and know that it exists. But just because I have never been there does not mean that I have evidence that such a place does not exist. In other words, experience does provide evidence of existence, but a lack of experience does not provide evidence of nonexistance. Certainly you can understand that right?

    Love,

    Lori
     

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