I didn't say I wanted a Christians-Only forum (which would probably be very hard to define anyway), I just don't want to spend all my time pointlessly arguing whether there is any such thing as God. There is no answer to this debate since neither side can prove anything nor provide any evidence to support their view. That's the whole point. If there was proof, we would call it Science! What is the point of such a discussion? It seems like a Religion Forum would pre-suppose a Religion - any Religion.
Since only 1/3 of humanity are Christians, and even within that 1/3 of humanity there are wildly conflicting interpretations of things . . . the burden of ''proof'' doesn't rest on non-theists. If religion in no way affected a non-theists life, then it wouldn't make sense for us to be in this forum. But when evangalists sit in on foreign policy meetings with my f*cking president . . . when my tax dollars get diverted to ''faith based'' issues . . . when my president says he doesn't even think non-believers should be considered citizens . . . when every dollar I spend has a specific mono-theistic judeo-christian slogan printed on it . . . it becomes our business too. End of rant. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Well, then go live in a society where the majority agrees with you. That's how the America's got started. Most of the original colonies were started by Christians fleeing persecution who wanted to live in a society of like-minded people. Although there has been a concerted effort to secularize America, it seems there is still at least a slim majority who want our culture and government to be based upon a basic set of moral guidelines as outlined in the Judeo-Christian religion. That's the whole point of a Republic. We had to put up with eight years of debauchery under Clinton - now its our turn for a little while. What has this to do with my good colleague C2o having the fortitude to speak the truth despite the attacks and flames of intolerant non-believers.
Bullshit - the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion Many Religious Right activists have attempted to rewrite history by asserting that the United States government derived from Christian foundations, that our Founding Fathers originally aimed for a Christian nation. This idea simply does not hold to the historical evidence. Of course many Americans did practice Christianity, but so also did many believe in deistic philosophy. Indeed, most of our influential Founding Fathers, although they respected the rights of other religionists, held to deism and Freemasonry beliefs rather than to Christianity. This country was founded on the ideals of FREEDOM for everybody to worship or not as they please. "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814 Turn your comment around . . . if you WANT to live in a society where there is state sponsered religion - move to Iran. ---------------------------- Hopefully Democracy can mean more than two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner . . . .
David, what does "history" say though concerning those colonies? You're talking about pre-US constitution colonies. Yes, all or most were created under "Christian" charters or whatever. But that is not the document we live under. "Man has been endowed by his creator with certain, unalienable rights" was not necessarily a Christian statement. Deists were influential in the founding of this nation.
Wow - old GW could have been looking into the future with this one. Wordy but accurate: "Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." -- George Washington, October 20, 1792
We had to put up with eight years of debauchery under Clinton Ho Ho. What debauchery would that be? So whats gods prescribed punishment for extra marital fellatio? Y'know modern xtians are sounding more like muslims with every passing day. Bush on one side Osama on the other and us poor fuckin' normal folk stuck in the middle. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Meanwhile back at the topic.... You'll hear a lot of non-believers say "Worship how and who you want just don't ram it down my throat" I guess thats the problem with c2o. Dee Cee
Yes, I agree. The America's existed for a century and a half prior to the writing of the Constitution. Those original colonies (most but not all) were founded as Christian communities and lived under Christian laws. But, we are getting off the topic. Why is C2o being persecuted for speaking (writing) his Christian beliefs - on a Religion Forum? Why can't we get past this unprovable question - true or false - about whether or not God exists - on a Religion Forum? Why can't I discuss Religion with fellow Christians, without being inundated by hecklers - on a Religion Forum?
Why can't we discuss how absolutely screwed up religion is, and its evil influence on the world . . . in a religion forum without getting heckled by Christians? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I personally think C20 can talk all he wants in the Religion section here. Its when he preaches at us in other sections that it gets old fast.
At least one reason I think people are annoyed with C20 is his constant preaching. And I know in C20's worldview, he is doing what he is supposed to be doing, "preaching the Gospel", so I personally will not blame him. But to some, and to me also, it gets on my nerves to see the.. well, how can I put it? Demonizing of non-Christians on this forum. I know he is doing it out of sincerity, or at least I think he is. Maybe if he.. toned it down somewhat it could help. After all, if Paul really "became all things to all people", then I suppose he might have put his gospel in a more friendly tone. I think that's the problem many are having with C20. And that's why he's getting the backlash he's getting. So I see the reason why C20 is doing what he's doing, and why people are reacting to him as they are. And I agree with you, there shouldn't be hecklers. But C20 has brought some of this on himself with the way he has preached the "gospel". It all depends on how you want to look at it. But if he's willing to .. just put it in a different, less demonizing language, maybe people would be more receptive to it. Perhaps he's been doing that very thing lately. Or I have gotten used to his posts. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Yes, I suppose that view is a valid one, but it certainly seems the Christian Slamming from the other side is still much worse - just look at the Thread Subjects, you don't even have to read the content to notice that Christians are not welcome here.
That's because we all have ideas in our mind when we see things. Like a Christian who sees a cross in a public place. It's great to him. But to a Jew, it could be a symbol of persecution, and death, and he could hate and fear that symbol for what it stands for. When some see "Christian", they think of the worst things imaginable. Crusades. Inquisition. etc. And to a Christian, when he thinks of an atheist, he may immediately equate that person with being immoral. But yea, I'd probably agree with you that there is a strong anti-Christian slant.
Well, since we live under the Christian Taliban here in the USA -- our jobs, friendships, maybe even safety at risk if we were as open about our non-theist stance as they can be about their religious stance . . . we'd not feel deperate for places to vent. But we are desperate. It America you truly do risk your way of life if you dare come ''out of the closet'' about being a freethinker in many communities. So we grab the few safe opportunities we have to openly discuss things!
Wow, I never even met this guy, but from what I understand he is a hypocritical christian. I'm not saying that all christians are hypocritical, but there are a good majority.... C20, can I give you a bit of advice that my uncle (who is an adament christian) told me concerning this issue? He said that there is no place in the bible that condones the way that fundamentalists preach the gospel in a discontenting manner. In Jesus' words, it tells christians to go and speak of him the way that he did. Jesus did that through gaining a relationship with the person that he was trying to convince of his cause. He then provided himself as a servant to that person, but if you notice, he never told them why he acted this way before they showed some interest. You cannot push your beliefs on others, it causes more rejection, you have to show people what you are about, and if they become interested in the way that you do things, you then explain it all to them. I would just suggest to stop pissing people off with your beliefs. It's fine to express the way that you feel and what you believe, just dont do it in a negative way that demeans others. :bugeye:
BTW C2O... Wanna tell us the christian significance of the name you've chosen for yourself?Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Perhaps I can even guess your denomination. you don't wear a big colourful wool hat to church by any chance? One that only you can see.. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Dee Cee
Christians are very welcome here. As long as they follow the norm of providing supporting evidence and using logic to defend their faith there is nothing wrong. When they start calling nonbelievers names like "brooding vipers" is when there is an obvious problem.
Don't you know Dee, good Christians don't go in for marital fellatio. It's dirty to put one's mouth down there. But put an old man in priestly robes and a young boy in altar boy robes in front of him, and fellatio is then ok. Christians have devised a plan for those men as well. Move them onto another area where people just don't know that their children are at risk, and the process begins all over again. But it's ok right? Their leaders of their Christian communities right? Now excuse me while I spit out the gorge that's just risen into my mouth.. David, that is not a good argument. Christians were also known to slaughter the natives under those 'Christian laws'. I think the problem here is that c20 does not just speak of his Christian beliefs. He preaches them and tries to ram them down our throats. I don't give a shit what c20 believes in. To each their own. But when he tries to ram his Christian preachings down our throats, and we say stop and he doesn't, then that is an insult and an abuse. His views are often bigotted, hateful and hypocritical and when faced with his own views, he retreats behind the Bible and tries to preach his way out of his own hypocrisy. He doesn't discuss, he tries to convert. There's a big difference. I don't think he should be banned for discussing religion, but when he preaches, against the rules that govern the rest of us, then something must be done. He either stops preaching or he doesn't and face the consequences. Don't forget David, it was c20 who started this thread. Not anyone else. It was he who sought the persecution of others in the form of this thread. He opened his own can of worms and now he must be able to eat it without complaint. Heh.. I'd forgotten about that.
You know what it is that you people want? A Christian-bashing forum. Well then, rest assured because that is exactly what you have. Congratulations. You win. Hm...do you win? Maybe you should ask yourselves what the prize is. I could cite where every one of the "accusers" have repeatedly, and I mean repeatedly as in almost every time they post, broken the "preaching rules" that they are accusing c2o of breaking. It's not that c2o isn't answering their questions...it's that they don't like his answers...plain and simple. And that my friends amounts to no crime on his part...just poor taste on your part.
That's the whole point...HE DOESN'T DO IT IN A NEGATIVE WAY THAT DEMEANS OTHERS. That's what they are guilty of themselves. What he does is expresses the way that he feels and what he believes, and he does so in a mild-mannered and humble way...AND has as a reference The Holy Bible and Jesus Christ. There are no more well-known nor widely accepted references available. This is a witch-hunt. And you point your fingers at the churchies...you people are worse!
Lori, here's the point though. You think it's not in a negative way that demeans others, because you believe in the Bible, right? So if C20 calls people a "brood of vipers", it's fine to you, isn't it? But to those who don't believe in the Bible, it can be offensive. You can understand this, right? And who are "you people"? Are you including me in that? Have I attacked him? Just wondering why you don't put your language in more specific terms, unless you are including me. Are you? Didn't I defend him? While also defending a non-Christian viewpoint?
