Circumcision is a crime now in Germany

Conflating male circumcision with female genital mutilation is stupid. That's why we call it "mutilation," and reject the term "female circumcision" in the first place.

Agreed.

They aren't even in the same ballpark. Circumcised men enjoy sex to the same degree that non-circumcised men do. Mutilated females rarely ever do. And there isn't a book of knowledge defending "female circumcision", especially on the grounds of disease prevention in the third world like there is the male variety.

~String
 
String, there is for removing all women's breast tissue at birth, you think THAT is ok?

And BTW if FGM is so horible why would women who have had it done be begging hospitals to sew them back up after they give birth IN WESTEN COUNTRIES LIKE AUSTRALIA and be begging them to do it to there daughters too. And that comes from a psychologist who specilises in working with asylum seekers and abused women
 
If no one had ever heard of circumcision, and suddenly some parent said "Ya know, I think I would like to have part of my infant son's penis cut off," everyone would flip the fuck out and call for the state to take the child away. People have an amazing ability to be comfortable with things that they are familiar with, even when an objective observer would find them pretty horrifying.
 
They will probably get the Jewish people to start wearing stars on their clothing next.

German guys won't be very popular with the ladies in 20 years.

A Cochrane meta-analysis of studies done on sexually active men in Africa found that circumcision reduces the infection rate of HIV among heterosexual men by 38%-66% over a period of 24 months,[15] and studies have concluded it is cost effective in sub-Saharan Africa.[16] The WHO currently recommends circumcision be part of a comprehensive program for prevention of HIV transmission in areas with high endemic rates of HIV.

I am not jewish but was circumsized as it is sanitary. I have no diminished pleasure.

Despite a worldwide campaign for circumcision to slow the spread of AIDS, the rate of circumcision among American baby boys appears to be declining. Only 1/2 of all American boys are now being circumcised, when it was much higher 2/3 of the male population for over 100 years.

If you are a male in North America then you are most likely proud to be circumcised. Girls have shown a preference for circumcised guys in general, and you are more likely to see a male porn star who is circumcised.

I am surprised by the view that this is supported. The World Health Organization is stating that Circumcision saves lives. I'd rather my children be among the living (guess that is just me).
 
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They will probably get the Jewish people to start wearing stars on their clothing next.

German guys won't be very popular with the ladies in 20 years.

A Cochrane meta-analysis of studies done on sexually active men in Africa found that circumcision reduces the infection rate of HIV among heterosexual men by 38%-66% over a period of 24 months,[15] and studies have concluded it is cost effective in sub-Saharan Africa.[16] The WHO currently recommends circumcision be part of a comprehensive program for prevention of HIV transmission in areas with high endemic rates of HIV.

I am not jewish but was circumsized as it is sanitary. I have no diminished pleasure.

1. Sensationalize much?

2. African men also don't use condoms. So this study is in relation to unprotected sex. It only means that the foreskin provides a warm, moist area in which the virus doesn't die so quickly.

3. I don't know about your habits, but there is no area of my body that gets more attention as far as hygiene, apart from my teeth.
 
The World Health Organization is stating that Circumcision saves lives. I'd rather my children be among the living (guess that is just me).

If it is because the virus does not die so quickly then you have found a way a foreskin can kill someone. I am only repeating The World Health Organization.

How much sensationalizing would i need to do to save even 1 life?
 
False Equivalence, and Other Notes

Asguard said:

And BTW if FGM is so horible why would women who have had it done be begging hospitals to sew them back up after they give birth IN WESTEN COUNTRIES LIKE AUSTRALIA and be begging them to do it to there daughters too. And that comes from a psychologist who specilises in working with asylum seekers and abused women

Strangely—or, perhaps not—I think you answered your own question.

Ever read Kenyatta's Facing Mt. Kenya? If not, you might wish to; it includes a rather striking defense of clitoridectomy. It took me years to get past the whole let-cultures-be-cultures argument about FGM. Indeed, if we were to go rake through my posting history here, we could probably find several points on the transitional curve.

But, to your question, cultural psychology is not so far removed from individual psychology. Your point comes from a psych who specializes in traumatized people, such as asylum seekers and abused women? You will find part of the answer to the why question in that simple statement.

From the bizarrely minute to the horrifyingly huge, you can see this pattern over and over again.

Some Christian women in the U.S., many found in the Southern Baptist Convention, support the denigration and constriction of females as pertains to expectations of dress, education, and the prospect of a career. If you ever peek into discussions of Mormonism, you'll find that some LDS women are daring to question why they have to wear pantyhose to church. There are all sorts of psychosexual suggestions, of course, and talk of honoring God or respecting others or simply being obedient. Apparently, in many Mormon circles, women are expected to wear pantyhose in church regardless of the discomfort, even to the point of causing rashes and blistering. And, yes, many women in the church advocate such standards.

True, compared to FGM, these are tiny notions. But they follow the same psychosocial path.

If abuse and denigration equal propriety within a culture, then even refugees from that culture will reflect that abuse and denigration.

I'm not certain exactly what curriculum you're following in your training, but have you yet done your sections on psychology of victim and trauma?

I mean, you and I both are aware that your outlook on female human beings in general mystifies me. I am certain it makes sense from some perspective, but I have no idea what that perspective is. Well, when my mood is darker, I think of Peter Griffin and Lionel Richie—"Who hurt you? Who hurt you?"—but that is hardly a reliable presupposition.

Still, though, it's strange. Part of me would accuse (?!) that you're already aware—at least, in general—of why human beings abused and traumatized would continue to advocate the conditions that victimized them.

Furthermore, as Quadraphonics noted, "Conflating male circumcision with female genital mutilation is stupid."

To wit, we might note Mrs.Lucysnow's point: "Have you ever seen it done on a newborn? The cries are torturous, its not like regular crying." Well, right, but part of the theory in circumcising newborn males is that their memories aren't writing data at that point. And if we wish to say that the "torturous" pain of the newborn is the primary concern, then perhaps the medical ethicists need to assert the importance of delivering all children via C-section.

(If we inject anti-abortion rhetoric into the argument, then there is no question that all children should be delivered by C-section.)

Furthermore, lacking data suggesting that newborns are actively and acutely writing memory in their brains at the time of circumcision, one should also consider the difference between male circumcision performed at birth and female mutilation performed at some later time, including adolescence. And as Superstring noted: "They aren't even in the same ballpark. Circumcised men enjoy sex to the same degree that non-circumcised men do. Mutilated females rarely ever do."

The two issues are not the same. Your inflation of male circumcision, or denigration of female genital mutilation—whichever the case may be—is inappropriate.

Any legitimate question about the justifications and effects of male circumcision at birth get drowned out by fanaticism.
 
The World Health Organization is stating that Circumcision saves lives. I'd rather my children be among the living (guess that is just me).

If it is because the virus does not die so quickly then you have found a way a foreskin can kill someone. I am only repeating The World Health Organization.

How much sensationalizing would i need to do to save even 1 life?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you're not an African. These statistics don't emerge from a vacuum. They include all the cultural, economic, and religious practices peculiar to Africans. If you are relying on cutting off parts of your son's penis to prevent STD's, in a western society that has access to condoms, it would not be inappropriate to consider you less than rational.
 
String, there is for removing all women's breast tissue at birth, you think THAT is ok?

Wow, what a pathetic attempt at trolling. Even for you.

And BTW if FGM is so horible why would women who have had it done be begging hospitals to sew them back up after they give birth IN WESTEN COUNTRIES LIKE AUSTRALIA and be begging them to do it to there daughters too. And that comes from a psychologist who specilises in working with asylum seekers and abused women

LOL the whole premise of your troll there is that any practice which manages to implicate women must therefor not be oppressive to them. Which is to say that you haven't the first clue about how systems of oppression operate, and so are not qualified to participate in this dicussion at all. Nice own-goal, there.
 
if no one had ever heard of circumcision, and suddenly some parent said "ya know, i think i would like to have part of my infant son's penis cut off," everyone would flip the fuck out and call for the state to take the child away. People have an amazing ability to be comfortable with things that they are familiar with, even when an objective observer would find them pretty horrifying.

qft
 
They will probably get the Jewish people to start wearing stars on their clothing next.
Yeah, because clearly religious intolerance is the only reason people would object to cutting off parts of infants' bodies...
German guys won't be very popular with the ladies in 20 years.
Very few people in Europe who aren't Jewish or Muslim are circumcised as it is. The ladies are used to it.
A Cochrane meta-analysis of studies done on sexually active men in Africa...
You know that Germany isn't a part of Africa, right?

In any case, if an adult decides that he wants to get circumcised to reduce his risk of STDs (or any other reason), then he's free to go for it.
I am not jewish but was circumsized as it is sanitary. I have no diminished pleasure.
I assume this is based on a comparison to all the sex you had before you were circumcised?
I'd rather my children be among the living (guess that is just me).
Wow, false dilemma much?

In any case, the whole "circumcision reduces hiv risk" argument is only happening because people are already accustomed to circumcision. If it was demonstrated that, say, cutting off the labia minora somehow reduced hiv risk for women, I dont think most people would consider it for a moment.
 
Agreed.

They aren't even in the same ballpark. Circumcised men enjoy sex to the same degree that non-circumcised men do. Mutilated females rarely ever do. And there isn't a book of knowledge defending "female circumcision", especially on the grounds of disease prevention in the third world like there is the male variety.

~String

While it is true that male circumcision is the lesser of two evils, we are talking about two evils. Ritualistically removing flesh from a child's penis is no less obscene and cruel than removing female circumcision. The overall effects are vastly different, and no one denies that, but let's not pretend that male circumcision is acceptable simply because FGM is so much more horrible.

The benefits of such circumcision are coincidental, and akin to saying that a woman avoids breast cancer by having that tissue removed as a child. If a man wants to get cut, let him choose to do so when he's old enough to make an informed decision.
 
Ritualistically removing flesh from a child's penis is no less obscene and cruel than removing female circumcision.

That's complete bullshit, and in fact you just agreed that the one is "lesser" than the other in the very sentence before that.

The overall effects are vastly different, and no one denies that,

You just denied that, right there in your last sentence, when you said that the two are equally obscene and cruel.

but let's not pretend that male circumcision is acceptable simply because FGM is so much more horrible.

The contention is that people should stop pretending that male circumcision is as bad as female genital mutilation, just because some people call the latter "circumcision."
 
Strangely—or, perhaps not—I think you answered your own question.

Ever read Kenyatta's Facing Mt. Kenya? If not, you might wish to; it includes a rather striking defense of clitoridectomy. It took me years to get past the whole let-cultures-be-cultures argument about FGM. Indeed, if we were to go rake through my posting history here, we could probably find several points on the transitional curve.

But, to your question, cultural psychology is not so far removed from individual psychology. Your point comes from a psych who specializes in traumatized people, such as asylum seekers and abused women? You will find part of the answer to the why question in that simple statement.

From the bizarrely minute to the horrifyingly huge, you can see this pattern over and over again.

Some Christian women in the U.S., many found in the Southern Baptist Convention, support the denigration and constriction of females as pertains to expectations of dress, education, and the prospect of a career. If you ever peek into discussions of Mormonism, you'll find that some LDS women are daring to question why they have to wear pantyhose to church. There are all sorts of psychosexual suggestions, of course, and talk of honoring God or respecting others or simply being obedient. Apparently, in many Mormon circles, women are expected to wear pantyhose in church regardless of the discomfort, even to the point of causing rashes and blistering. And, yes, many women in the church advocate such standards.

True, compared to FGM, these are tiny notions. But they follow the same psychosocial path.

If abuse and denigration equal propriety within a culture, then even refugees from that culture will reflect that abuse and denigration.

I'm not certain exactly what curriculum you're following in your training, but have you yet done your sections on psychology of victim and trauma?

I mean, you and I both are aware that your outlook on female human beings in general mystifies me. I am certain it makes sense from some perspective, but I have no idea what that perspective is. Well, when my mood is darker, I think of Peter Griffin and Lionel Richie—"Who hurt you? Who hurt you?"—but that is hardly a reliable presupposition.

Still, though, it's strange. Part of me would accuse (?!) that you're already aware—at least, in general—of why human beings abused and traumatized would continue to advocate the conditions that victimized them.

Furthermore, as Quadraphonics noted, "Conflating male circumcision with female genital mutilation is stupid."

To wit, we might note Mrs.Lucysnow's point: "Have you ever seen it done on a newborn? The cries are torturous, its not like regular crying." Well, right, but part of the theory in circumcising newborn males is that their memories aren't writing data at that point. And if we wish to say that the "torturous" pain of the newborn is the primary concern, then perhaps the medical ethicists need to assert the importance of delivering all children via C-section.

(If we inject anti-abortion rhetoric into the argument, then there is no question that all children should be delivered by C-section.)

Furthermore, lacking data suggesting that newborns are actively and acutely writing memory in their brains at the time of circumcision, one should also consider the difference between male circumcision performed at birth and female mutilation performed at some later time, including adolescence. And as Superstring noted: "They aren't even in the same ballpark. Circumcised men enjoy sex to the same degree that non-circumcised men do. Mutilated females rarely ever do."

The two issues are not the same. Your inflation of male circumcision, or denigration of female genital mutilation—whichever the case may be—is inappropriate.

Any legitimate question about the justifications and effects of male circumcision at birth get drowned out by fanaticism.

And Tiassa now change one letter from F to M and all that stays EXACTLY the same. The reason people like mad are such strong supporters of the practice of mutilating boys is similar to stockholm syndrome, it's the same reason women are asking to be sown back up and it's the same reason why WOMEN (not men as some would like to think) are asking for this to be done to there unconcenting BABIES.

BTW the women who are asking to be sown back up report good sex lives too just for your Infomation. How does string compare his mutilated sex life to my unmutilated one? There are studies I have posted previously which show a physiological deficit in both male AND female sexual satisfaction when the male partner has been mutilated because the foreskin is just as important to male sexuality as the clit is to female. It contains 1000s of nerve endings more than your fingertips, it aids with vaginal insertion and stimulation, it protects the glands from rubbing leading to hardening of the epidermis and deadening of the nerves there. Basically you can scream all you want that it's not the same thing but it's still child abuse, if they CHOSE to have it done as adults thats there choice (just like chosing to get a prince Albert, a clit ring or even being sown up if that's what a women wants should be the persons choice though Medicare shouldn't pay for it). Consent is vitally important

Kilhilborn

You didn't read that study very well did you? I've read it compleatly and your right, it does recommend it for africa because condom use is so low but it also shows NO BENIFIT For the non African strain of HIV (you did know there were more than 1 didn't you). The highly virulent US strain shows no benifit at all and you still skipped over the question, removing a girls breast tissue at birth leaves her able to have sex but protected from breast cancer. Should girls routinely have all breast tissue removed as soon as they are born?
 
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The reason people like mad are such strong supporters of the practice of mutilating boys is similar to stockholm syndrome,

I'll thank you to cease this patronizing, rude practice of prejudicially characterizing circumcized males as "mutilated" and insisting that anyone who is okay with this kind of genital modification is suffering from a severe psychological response to prolonged victimization. Your line of rhetoric here is offensive.

How does string compare his mutilated sex life to my unmutilated one? ,

Again, this is patronizing and rude. I guess your brain must have gotten mutilated at some point if you are unable to understand that.

the foreskin is just as important to male sexuality as the clit is to female.

That is bullshit, and I defy you to present any of the "studies" you think establishes that.

Basically you can scream all you want that it's not the same thing but it's still child abuse

Again, you're throwing around prejudicial terms without any real substantiation. Troll.

Consent is vitally important

We permit parents to make all manner of permanent, life-altering decisions on behalf of their children. Are you saying that this is unacceptable abuse in general, or is there something specific about circumcision that excempts it from that category? If you have an actual argument that deals with this question, I'd like to hear it. If you're just going to shout CHILD MUTILATION then you're a troll who should go crawl back under a bridge somewhere.

removing a girls breast tissue at birth leaves her able to have sex but protected from breast cancer. Should girls routinely have all breast tissue removed as soon as they are born?

That's still a ridiculous troll premise, and you should stop badgering people with it. Try to act like an adult for one post in your life, eh?
 
Any remote disease reduction rate is overshadowed by the complications of circumcision. Circumcision botch-ups and its resultant scars are permanent. That's what happened to David Reimer, who had his gender reassigned by his parents after a circumcision destroyed his penis. He later committed suicide.

Back to the morality issue: ritualistic mutilation is precisely what circumcision is. It was originally a religious practice which had absolutely no practical benefits whatsoever (just read the Jewish Old Testament to discover where it came from and why). It's a complete abberation. If we're going to allow such grotesqueries to be committed upon our own babies within our culture, then we should also stop persecuting fanatical Mormons for marrying multiple 16-year-old women. That's a religious rite, too... and by contrast, it's a hell of a lot less horrid.

I am not attempting to put down anyone who has been circumcised. I am putting down our society, for allowing and misrepresenting circumcision in the first place. Some people have stated that they believe circumcised penises make them look more attractive. What if we all decided that babies are more attractive if you cut off one of their toes..? Would that be okay, too..? Because fundamentally, circumcision is no different. Likewise, what if parents decided their babies would be more attractive with tattoos on their foreheads and body piercings? In every case, it is the barbaric removal of healthy and functional tissue, which has sensation, all for the sake of some habitual aesthetics or for the sake of some primitive religious or social ritual. It should be a criminal offense to do such horrible things to helpless little babies. If it were not for the religious issues associated with circumcision, then I am sure that it would have been outlawed long ago.

As well, to those in this thread stating they were circumcised and have complete sensation: you have never known any different. You started out life with an incomplete penis, so having an incomplete penis is all that you know.
 
We permit parents to make all manner of permanent, life-altering decisions on behalf of their children. Are you saying that this is unacceptable abuse in general...
If it involves hacking off a part of the child's body for no rational medical reason...yes!
 
Sorry but it IS mutilation, MGM is a quite widely used term. You can complain all you want but thats what it is. I wonder if you have kids? If you do think back to the first time you saw your child in your arms, you probably examined it because that's perfectly natural thing for a new parent to do, you count fingers and toes, everyone seems to remake at how tiny the finger nails are. Now tell me, in that momen was your first though "they are perfect and beautiful" or "how ugly let's hack this kid up"?

You can call me a troll all you like, except that the US and israel are the exception not the rule on this and lots of countries are quietly moving to discourage this abhorrent practice if not yet follow Germany's lead and outright ban it. In Australia medicare won't pay for it and I believe you can't have it done in a public hospital unless there is a medical need.
 
Try again, and do better this time

Asguard said:

And Tiassa now change one letter from F to M and all that stays EXACTLY the same.

No, it doesn't. If you intend to insist on this point, I think we can reasonably ask for peer-reviewed evidence to back it.
 
What would you like Tiassa? Proof of the term? Try google or look across the boarder because the first time I herd MGM used was by a Canadian feminist group. Or would you like proof of the sexual dysfunction it causes

No problem
http://epublications.bond.edu.au/cg...=0#search="male cirumcision female organsium"


However in this case the burden of proof unfortunately lies with those who are PRO mutilation. The laws with regard to medical treatment on unconsenting children state that the procedure must have a dematstratable benifit and be unable to be put off until the child can consent. As gardecell given to boys would have the same effect on the HIV reduction for the African strain and there IS no benifit for the out of africa strain where is the demenstratable benifit? Condoms, gardecell and sex ed will do FAR more than mutilation ever will.

It's child abuse pure and simple, wether its as bad as other forms of child abuse are irrelivent
 
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