Climate Change Control Using Rock Dust

Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by exchemist, Jul 8, 2020.

  1. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    9,644
    Yes it is basalt overburden they are talking about, rather than tailings. Tailings would tend to have a lot more heavy metals of course - and would not be basalt, generally speaking.

    The paper also mentions that by raising the pH of the soil, this procedure can actually reduce the mobility of some hazardous elements, such as arsenic.
     
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  3. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    particle weight density in water
    harmonic cadence to average rain impact frequency(depth of settlement)
    metal content & types
    pre extraction leeching of surface activity compound & quantity

    food cycle contaminant list in animal organs including biological loading(organ loading/waste) as mentioned above PH level change to effect parasites & pasture bacteria

    There is no shortage of hacks trying to make a fast dollar from selling mining waste to some type of cost reducing dumping process.

    grazing pasture goes directly to human baby milk infant formula
    so the reality of the hard science needs is quite apparent for those whos business it is to ensure the top quality price of their product, AND that it doesn't kill their customers.

    a "rough guess" when it comes to biological loading of things into the food chain(like mercury in sharks, imagine loading mercury into baby infant formula or the fat on peoples steak and what they use for cooking & baking) doesn't really fix the organ failure or disease it puts into babys children or adults

    as much as vegans may complain about the meat & dairy industry it is a key pillar of global food & provides the core nutrition for the worlds human babys

    taking a vague
    off handed & ignorant approach to that is not going to play well for any real economic process

    unless your one of the melamine crew
    then a Chinese firing squad is waiting for you.

    and .. from the farmers who i have met who have generations farming, if you faked some type of chemical to them that they put into their product that endangered the buyers and consumers
    they would probably come for you.
    that would be dead certain.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal



    if the particle size & molecular weight is a certain weight
    maybe small enough to be used in the spreaders
    it may also(worst case scenario) be also the right size weight & density to suspend its self at a certain depth level to create a layer of the substance
    that layer would be disproportionately high in what ever content it had & begin to dominate the pasture soil layer by creating a new layer or allowing different types of mold to grow on top of
    or underneath
    it may trap more moisture, maybe less

    thus a burying measure
    and suspension measure
    must be included for different types of pasture composition & top soil
    matched against any burrowing basic behavior with rain
    OBVIOUSLY combined with this it is going to effect what effectiveness fertilization is going to have
    will it mix undesirably with herbicides and increase run off leeching
    or reduce % effectiveness range ?



    IF it reacts to some other fertaliser or spray & resides in growth patches
    cows can get a liking for it
    so every time you put the herd in the paddock one or 2 cows may run for patches and eat disproportionate amounts of certain substances

    Like children being let into a mall where all the candy shops are open and free
    but some candy has high amounts of arsenic

    some lead
    some chromium
    some aluminum
    some iron
    some calcium

    etc etc

    once it passes the micro biologist/zoologist(biological science animal scientists)

    it is then secretly trialed in a monitored place where none of the animals or products are put into markets
    well away from spoilt little rich kids vegan terrorism fantasies


     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
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  5. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    not meaning you personally
    meaning "you" as the third person
     
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  7. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,356
    They aren't manmade chemicals. Rocks are seldom manmade objects.

    Most serious gardeners I know
    (I only know "organic" gardeners - nobody in my circles does put-and-take chemical gardening, or kills the insects in their garden with stuff that poisons people, or plants nicotinoid-treated seeds, or any of that crap. They are all into dirt - they are dirt farmers, literally; the veggies and stuff are side effects)
    already incorporate rock "dust" of various kinds into their soil. You can buy it in bulk from many organic gardening supply outlets. https://www.gardeners.com/buy/greensand-fertilizer/07-207.html.

    That said, a lot of hard rock mining waste (including overburden) is poisonous - and mining companies have no ethics or morals when it comes to handling it. This proposal would have to be heavily and rigidly regulated, and the mining companies involved continuously and conscientiously forced - at gunpoint, under threat of criminal prosecution of individual executives - to obey those regulations while under constant monitoring and surveillance by third parties they are permanently forbidden to hire, pay, negotiate with, or have any dealings whatsoever with other than ensuring their access to the jobsite.

    If that is not possible, or not funded, or not carefully and openly arranged, or not publicly documented in ways any citizen can inspect for themselves, this proposal will - with near certainty - result in the long term poisoning of extensive areas of agricultural land and associated aquifers.
    - - - -
    And - often - seriously injurious levels of lead, fire-retardant chemicals, leachate from plastics, and so forth. The dirt around many people's houses is seriously hazardous to adults even, let alone children. That's from allowing corporations to do things like this in the past.

    The habitual reflex of deflecting environmental concerns into discussions of some people's foolishness and ignorance,

    of arguing against the weakest rather than the strongest objections to some dubious (or even flat out damaging and harmful) proposal from profiteering businessmen hiding behind their limited liability corporate avatar, their well-paid "scientist" representatives, their carefully wording marketing department, their top-flight and diligent legal team, and so forth -

    has over the years resulted in a great deal of serious harm done to a great many people for the less serious profit or benefit of a relative few;

    who by odd coincidence are often found to have paid for and otherwise abetted the media distribution of those deflections and misleading arguments (including the provision of the examples of foolishness, sifted from the general discussion and presented as representative of the other side in a bothsides argument.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
  9. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,050
    ...
    and the fossil fuel & pollution that is created to dig it up, and then truck it hundreds of miles & then pay for more fossil fuel to off load it & store it & then more fossil fuel to then spread it

    it would need to have exponential factors of Co2 absorption to compensate
    or off set nitrogen run off
    and off set nitrogen purchase

    unfortunately there is no shortage of ponsy sales men looking to turn a quick million dollars
    more soo alt right political associates looking to scam a few million in government funding grant money
    American is the champion of such things with all their tax free megga church corporate tax free millionaires and their luxury goods life styles

    all those megga church fascists paying no tax but using all the emergency services and social services for free
    = sick perverts playing joseph gobbels wanna-be games bribing alt right politicians

    already see american regulators are bribed and paid off by alt right political funding people
    so that is completely useless
    you can see the current system is completely useless
    the only power to prevent it
    is in the ability to grant the license to do so
    but the licensing process is also corrupt and the alt right simply pay legal bribes to the politicians to make new laws

    so its all a fairly theoretical debate
    but good for those other countrys with actual morals and proper systems

    this current debate will all be about if the alt right & their cronies can get away with this ponsy scheme without being locked up in years of legal battles that they will have to buy (legally) more politicians to get them to simply change the law so they dont get pinned with anything.

    once it is dmped on private land
    the toxic waste cost & pollution becomes legally the responsibility of the farmer
    and the farmer will also be held accountable legally and criminally for the poisoning of people via the contaminated meat & vegetables

    so they are assuming it comes with a get-out-of-jail-free card




    soo please excuse any air of cynicism you may read in my responses

    who gets the get-out-of-jail-free-card ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    18,319
    In a few cases, true.

    In most cases, it is full of lead, cadmium, uranium, mercury and thorium - and is still perfectly safe. Those elements are in every cubic yard of dirt in the US. Even the most pristine, untouched wilderness.

    A fool will hear that they found some amount of mercury in his dirt and demand it all be dug out at huge cost and environmental damage - and then be replaced by dirt with just as much mercury.
    A wise man will hear that they found some amount of mercury in his dirt - and ask "how much?"
     
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,356
    In entire neighborhoods of every large city in the US, afflicting millions of people - a disproportionate number of them children.
    And lead, leachate from plastics, etc etc etc.
    And when they find out how much, they will do something about it - beginning with imposing and enforcing rigidly restrictive regulations and diligent oversight on the corporate entities that stand to profit from poisoning millions of American citizens.
    Again: deflecting the discussion into an irrelevant criticism of fools wastes everybody's time and furthers the interests of the bad guys. The foolishness of some of those wary of this proposal is no evidence of its soundness - the analysis and criticism from the wise would be the focus of attention of a responsible advocate.

    We can all stipulate to the existence of fools - now back to the matter at hand: this proposal, and what will happen if it is enacted without the necessary oversight and control of the mining corporations involved.

    For one thing: given the power and amorality of these mining corporations, given their track record, the necessary oversight and diligence of control will likely be difficult and expensive. That's a factor, especially when we haven't established who's paying for what.
     
  12. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    9,644
    Getting back to the subject of the thread, prevention of dangerous levels of heavy metals in rock dust for this new application should be perfectly simple to achieve. Since it has to be ground into dust by a manufacturing process, all one needs is a system of regulation of that process, including chemical analysis of every batch, as is quite normal in a vast range of products in chemical industry today. The costs would be trivial, as the analysis is quite standard.

    There would no no question of mines being encouraged to dump material directly onto farmland, obviously.
     
  13. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,050
    possible iron poisoning in the dairy heard
    leading to milk being far to high in iron & resulting in babys getting kidney disease ?

    unless it is properly tested before it is sold to market.
    in which case it will be dumped and be in the front pages and farmers will be worried about international brand image and launch massive liable suites for brand damage
    ferrous oxide toxic build up in organs is quite undesirable
    it would poison the dairy heard and they are quite expensive
    the animal rights people would have a field day
    the anti meat patrol would launch dairy farm invasions and possibly try and dump milk
    farmers might end up shooting some of them

    not a good look for mining who are supposed to be winning the hearts and minds of common folk

    direct dumping would be a criminal offense and risk being prosecuted under the terrorism act
     
  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,319
    O the children won't someone please think of the children?

    Yes, there are places that is true. And in the vast majority of places it is not.
    You have this belief that all narratives must be distorted so that at no time, ever, can a "bad guy" read something that comforts him.

    I do not agree with this approach. The fact is that all dirt in the US (the world actually) contains radioactive materials and heavy metals. Suppressing that information lest some "bad guy" use it in a nefarious way leads to panic - and often to environmentally damaging decisions.
    No one is suggesting that it be done without oversight and control. That would be a strawman argument.
     
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  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    18,319
    Agreed. And since it represents a way for a mining company to dispose of tailings - and because they have a lot of it to choose from - mining companies are incentivized to provide it.
     
  16. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,644
    Yes, though I think I would want another analysis run on each production batch of dust coming out of the mill as well, to be sure. One would then hold the mill responsible for the quality of its rock dust, against a spec with max ppm of the various heavy metals, and that would ensure the mill would insist on getting analysis done on the material being supplied to it by the mines, steelworks etc.
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    14,282
    LOL, of course. But that is not what I said.
    The chemicals used to process mined materials are and they are usually recycled back into the soil.

    Let me put it this way. Why does the mining industries have immunity from many EPA regulations? The official explanation is that enforcing EPA regulations on mining industry would make the cost of extraction prohibitive. Therefore, let's just do away with the regulation, easy.

    What is Mineral Mining?
    https://www.epa.gov/eg/mineral-mining-and-processing-effluent-guidelines
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  18. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    5,050
    they are probably hoping that all farming will be owned by 1 single corporate by then and the entire economy runs like a communist concentration camp

    The mining companies will own the baby milk formula company & the break fast cereal company's
    & all working class breakfast cereal will be made from a single crop of corn
    flavoured with mining tailings & mind control drugs to keep the people from demanding their 2nd amendment tax free status(why are they not demanding universal health care instead of machine guns for teenagers in shopping malls)
    but that is called "american family values"

    strange culture
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,356
    The proposal here involves unprocessed, un"mined" rock.
    It is not man made.
    There is that question, exactly that question. It's front and center.
    The means, methods, and resources necessary to prevent mining corporations from doing that will be expensive and require expert diligence over many years. That means, in the US, they have to be set up and running in advance - before the first truckload of rock hits the first field.
    - - - -
    Nay, not so, but far otherwise, as the snake said.
    False, in other words, at least if by "places" you are not dodging but instead responding to the reference you claim to be responding to. (Major cities in the US)

    The situation I described is true of large neighborhoods in almost every midsized and larger American city. The neighborhoods it is true of are disproportionately populated by children. There is no simple majority of metropolitan areas not so afflicted, let alone a "vast" one, and this is not hidden or obscure knowledge - it's well and frequently documented fact for decades now.
    Troll shit. Next step is rubbing it in your hair - framing future posts as if that bs you posted (claiming an emotional appeal to the irrational, rather than a coldblooded and entirely accurate description of a bad situation or event) were the reality involved, and basing personal attack on that presumption.

    One of the most common fallback responses of the American "conservative", when confronted with an inconvenient physical fact of any kind. https://boston.cbslocal.com/2018/06/20/corey-lewandowski-wah-wah-fox-news-immigration/

    It's just noise, at first - but they don't stop on their own. Eventually, if they are not slapped down and disrespected for such behavior, those repeated memes dominate the entire communications bandwidth of US political discussion.

    And that's how we ended up with the climate change discussion we have (or were having, before Covid) , on the major media, during campaign season, in the US.
     
  20. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    5,654
    Yes but what if aliens attacked?

    The aliens mite even be even immune to fire. RainbowSingularity, first nuanced at this.
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    18,319
    I agree. The "o the poor children" appeal to emotion is a big steaming pile of shit. So we'll ignore it.
    Or you could rub it in your hair! Whatever you are into.
    Cool. If you think I'm a conservative I must be fairly liberal.
    No, we ended up with steaming piles of emotional BS that your kind prefer.

    "We will all be freezing in the dark! Do you want your children to freeze in the dark? Won't someone please think of the children!"
    "Do you really want your children to grow up in Al Gore's communist state?"

    Don't like those piles of shit? Don't fling them. (Or rub them in your hair and let the smell linger - if, again, that's what you are into.)
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    14,282
    Should we make the earth welcome to aliens?
    And suppose they eat rocks? The aliens would make us mine all the rocks we put back into the ground......

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  23. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Your politics seem to be blinding you to the science (Seems to be all the rage in the USA at the moment - and I use the term rage advisedly

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    ).

    This is rock dust. It is not "unprocessed". It has to be made by a manufacturing (grinding ) process, from slag or basalt mine overburden. That means it would be the product of a mill, not a mine.

    Any commercial operation would require the mill to test the incoming material, grind it to dust, test the batches of dust produced (for heavy metals, other likely contaminants, and, I expect, particle size distribution, to make sure it weathers properly), bag it in a form convenient for agriculture and arrange for it to be distributed for agricultural use. It would most likely become part of the product range of a branded business. I expect it would be picked up by the fertiliser business, as it parallels what they already do.

    This is a million miles from your dystopian fantasy of truckloads of raw, untested, mine spoil (i.e, chunks of rock and undifferentiated mud) being just dumped on farmland as a result of this proposal. That is not what is proposed and it is not what would happen. Obviously.
     

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