Corporal Punishment in Schools

I was having lunch in the local “greasy spoon” today, and I was listening in on this conversation being held by four men that obviously worked together. Three of them were older, and the fourth was probably in his early to mid twenties. They were talking about "kids these days," and went off on how when they were in school, if you acted up, "We used to get the paddle," "Well, we used to get the switch," and "We got a long leather strap," and all of them were thinking the same damn thing:

Kids were much more well behaved in school when teachers were allowed to do this sort of thing.

I know from first hand experience how horrific kids can be in a school-type setting, and with a couple of current news stories (one involving two teen males and a teen girl engaging in oral sex in the classroom in New Orleans, and another about five fourth grade boys doing the same in Texas), plus all the other stories of kids gone wrong, it makes me wonder:

Would kids be more well behaved nowadays if teachers were still allowed to paddle unruly students in class?

Peace.

 

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I think the biggest problem in our schools is lack of respect for authority. It's bigger than "just school".

 

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Yes sir! I know I was deathly afraid of "THE PADDLE" at my school, the principal did the honors. Like i said, deathly afraid! Well, you cant even paddle your own kids nowadays. I read a story today about a mother who spanked her kid 6 times on the behind at a store for trying to steal something. Well the police showed up and arrested the mother on child abuse charges! Make any sense?? Not to me. And I hear about children threatening their parents with calling the police if they spank them! What is this world coming to?
People dont have to beat the hell out of their kids for them to learn, but they do need show dicipline and authority. Spanking is not child abuse in my book. Im wondering how that law got passed?


Groove on

 

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I HAVE to answer this one... Personally, I hate most authority that has no right to really tell me what to do (IE- teachers). Parents, fine... Cops, ok... But teachers have no business in how I act, and much less in how the situation should be handled. I would beat the cr*p out of any teacher that even touched me. Why? Because they shouldn't. I dont beat them with a paddle every time they cause me grief, do I? Nope. So why should they? I think it should be handed over to the parents or the legal guardian and then they can decide how to deal with the situation. If its something like oral sex in class, then that's against the law and is up to the police.

This is the kind of thing that enrages me, and I'll do everything in my power to stop it. Why am I taking it so personally? I've always seen school as a prison for your mind and body. It destroys who you are, and forced you to conform to the "norm". It forces you to deal with situations that you wouldn't normally encounter in the real world. It forces you to be around people you would normally avoid simply because your last names start with the same letter. It forces you to adopt the lessons of the teacher, not the lessons you should be learning. I think that such punishment of the students doesn't make it any easier or fix any problems. I left school when I was 14, and have been registered as an independant study student (or homeschooled, as most like to call it) ever since. No one has taught me since then, yet I had no problem learning straight from books and experience all on my own. Now I'm 16, and almost done with my senior year in high school. My brother and I opened our own small software engineering company and I make pretty good money for my age doing that. I go to college part-time as a dual enrollment student. This coming spring I'm transferring to 4-year college to double major in computer science and astrophysics. Would punishment "fix" me? No, because I don't need to be fixed. Would I be a prime candidate? Yes. I have no problem admitting that I failed out of high school. Yet, the classes I've taken on my own are at least as difficult as the ones presented at school. Even better, all of my friends are sophmores at the moment.

 

That's a good thing.

The disappearance of a sense of responsibility is the most far-reaching consequence of submission to authority.--Stanley Milgram

More well behaved? Quite possibly. But if you want well behaved automatons, breed sheep. We are talking about human beings, who are dreadfully boring when they are well behaved and don't question things.

Besides, what sort of lesson is that to teach children, that it is okay to make weaker people do whatever you want them to? That it is okay to use force when people get a bit out of line? That it is okay to beat people who are weaker, because, hell, what are they going to do about it?

So what if the little brats are boffing each other? So what if they are unruly? Are not teachers paid to deal with unruly students? Are there not laws to govern any illegal behavior that occurs in school?

Anybody that laid a hand on either of my little sisters would bitterly regret such an action.

Spanking belongs in S&M parlors, not schools. And certainly not among children.

The- Hybrid, your education sounds almost exactly like mine. I left school at about twelve after being utterly miserable and learning nothing except how to fight....I taught myself until I started taking part time classes in community college at fifteen.

 

Not good to tell kids that the way to get what you want is to beat them around a bit.

I think maybe it would be better if a teacher said to the parents of a misbehaving kid "I'm just not going to teach your kid anything unless he/she sits down and pays attenion". Leave it up to the parents.

 

...so the parents can beat them around a bit?

Peace.

 

I never said that at all. The parents' job is to teach the little brat how to behave, how to be a person who can interact with society, et cetera. Teachers at shool are paid to teach academic things, a bit of sport, et cetera. If some little bastard is making a fuss in class and distracting my kid from learning, then that teacher is not doing what he/she is being paid to do, and the little bastard's parents are not doing their job. I have noticed that many parents seems to think they just provide meals, and ALL teaching about EVERYTHING is to be done by the schools. Very silly attitude.

And no, I have no kids.

 

Not only that, but most schools really believe its their job to do ALL the teaching. I remember most of my teachers telling me that during the day, they'll have to be like second parents to me. Not fun

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I think this is a discussion that gets brought up again and again.

There are always the for's and against's disaplining with such verocity.

I have to admit that I believe that it isn't really down to a school to disapline a child, but the parent. Okay , I say that but that doesn't mean the parent should use the child as a punching bag because later in life that person they beat is going to have psychological issues through trauma.

There are issues about "neglect", now when I mention neglect I don't mean "Letting a child starve and not acknowledging there existance", but neglect of not being apart of their life in any other way than seeing them a burden.

(This means that if a parent spends time doing recreational activities like sports, hobbies etc with the child, there more likely to be more responsive when a parent tells them off for something they've done wrong than a parent thats neglected them.)

As for methods of punishing, well, there's punishment and then their's reward. If your using rewards then the punishment, is not getting the reward. (Or the chance to get the reward)

I've actually considered that if a child wanted something (pocket money, games, clothing etc) then they should get it as a reward for some task. (washing-up, tidying a room, washing a car)
This doesn't just mean that they get what they want (in reward) for doing something, but it also conditions them for later in life so they can look after themselves and don't trapse around a flat in thier late twenties like some university student surrounded by spent pizza cartons.

Teen years are admittedly awkward, as a Child doesn't want to be treated like a kid. It's possibly to still be pally, but just not infront of their friends. In fact when they start getting to that stage they would want to try and avoid confrontation (coming in late etc)

As for crimes like taking drugs, or starting to smoke or drink. A young adult or teen, is likely to try and conceal what they do not to hurt their parent and because they know how much trouble they would be in. So extreme amounts of avoidance occur.

(But this doesn't mean that every kid that avoids their parent is on drugs)

 

Adam

You are right. Mum is learning how to be a primary teacher and she is ALWAYS complaning that teachers are expected to teach kids EVERYTHING.

 

Neither do I, so we're probably the last two people who should be debating this.

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My comment, "...so the parents can beat them around a bit?" was not to be taken as a literal suggestion, but as a prompt for alternatives. Everyone has said "no" to corporal punishment (with the exception of *stargirl*), but no alternatives have been offered.

I really dislike the idea of corporal punishment in schools. Consequences should be provided, and severity should exist in direct proportion to the activity, but humiliating a student by paddling them in front of class or even privately in a principal's office (and who isn't going to know about it?) will only make an enemy out of a student instead of changing their behavior.

What we're looking at is a fundamental paradox within our own cultural values about education. We believe, as a country, that all children should be educated. That means that all children have a right - even an obligation - to attend school. The consequences are that we have a large population of students who don't want to be there and will do what's necessary to get out of there as well as a system that makes it very, very difficult to get rid of disruptive students.

Most schools have at least dropped the out-of-school suspension because it was a reward to students. Break a bunch of rules and disrupt thirty other students' learning, well, okay, you can have three days away from the place you hate so much.

In school suspension is effective if it's set up correctly. Mounds of work, precious few breaks, no socializing time, and a very grim teacher/administrator glaring at you the whole time. However, I think it should be used a lot more sparingly. I would be tons more interested in seeing students sweat off their rule breaking by having to do boring, difficult chores like picking up trash on campus, cleaning bathrooms, dusting the library, and such. Of course, it would take some pretty stiff oversight and a whole bunch of parents would scream.

Saturday school works well in many districts because:

• students and parents have the requirements spelled out to them at the beginning of the year. They must sign an acknowledgement form.
  
• no one wants to give up three hours of his or her Saturday school.
  
• missing Saturday school means you get two more as well.
  
• three Saturday schools mean that the parent is summoned to appear before a judge to explain why they have failed to change their child's behavior. Parents tend to get really motivated when they're looking at a court summons.

There is an excellent website if you are interested: Positive Behavior Interventions & Support that offers a comprehensive approach to school discipline.

Peace.

 

Just my two cents ...

Stryderunknown

" ... as a reward for some task. (washing-up, tidying a room, washing a car)"

Gee, those tasks were once considered 'household tasks' and a contribution
toward the family's well being ... You know, like personal responsibility ... Or has
that concept also disappeared?

goofyfish

"In school suspension is effective if it's set up correctly. Mounds of work, precious
few breaks, no socializing time, and a very grim teacher/administrator glaring at
you the whole time."

How did parochial schools enter the discussion?

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But really, I must have attended an extremely backward school ... You were
expected to maintain a B average, or better, to participate in 'school service'
(ex. set up and present visual aids, work in the chemistry lab or the library,
etc.) instead of doing 'study hall'.

Oh well, the times do change.

Take care

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It has, more or less, and I place the blame for its disappearence squarely on your head!

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Re: Just my two cents ...

Yes, times have changed. Yes, you did attend a backwards school. Today, voluntarily participating in school-related activities equals to neglect of social life and being ignored by the "popular" kids in school. I'm not saying that something so immature should matter, but it usually does. At least up until sophmore year in high school, when you realize it really doesn't matter. Keeping a B average in school is no challange to anyone who wants to. Few people want to. I don't blame them, either. With the way the teachers are, and the way peers treat one another, I'm surprised the suicide rate isn't higher then it already is. Its sad, but true. Staying away from drugs, violence, and other such things is hard enough already... Nothing that goes on inside of the actual classroom makes it any easier, and neither will any extracurricular activities. The only thing that can change it is a sudden, massive shift in the attitude and reasoning of the students. Unfortunatly, it probably wont happen any time soon.

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you want to know what will help with youth suicide rates (a little)

Get rid of bulling

Period

By Students, Teaches OR Pricaples

This is strait from prep to year 12

It MUST go

 

I know. That's exactly what I'm getting at. But like I said, there's really no way to stop bullying, unless every single student (whether they are the bully, the victim, or neither) makes the decision to stop it. Authority has no way to stop it. The cops wont do anything about it. The teachers don't care much. The parents usually don't find out. And if they did? They still can't do anything. Its a lot of bullying to deal with. If at least the victim's peers that aren't involved decide to stand up for him/her, then the bully might stop. But that happens very rarely.

 

What about bulling by teachers?

I haven't personaly experianced this but i have herd of it happing (thats what i was talking about with the 3rd last line of my last post)


You are wrong though it dosn't have to come from students it MUST come from sociaty and parents. This is where children get there Morals and Ethics from. EVERYONE in socaiaty must change there atitudes.

You are wrong about cops and schools not taking it seriously anymore to. I don't know where you live (you haven't specified your location) but in Vic they are starting to expell kids for bulling AND in some cases they are now being charged ASWELL.

It is a VERY seriouse problem and the Gov is starting to realise this

 

Yea, the whole bullying by the teacher thing happens often. Usually though, no one pays much attention to them.
I'm in the US. Here, I've heard of kids being charged as well, but this is very rare, and it usually doesn't get to that point since the parents never find out, or they dont care. I dont mean as in "oh, I dont care about my kid", but as in the parents are too busy to pamper their kids. No one here will get suspended for it unless they took bullying to the extreme. Usually all that will happen is a 1-hour afterschool or lunch detention. That changes nothing. Though people are starting to realize that its a problem, I dont see much being done about it.

 

Now that they are starting to realise how much of a problem it is and what it doses to a person they are taking it more seriously. The DOE put out a decree (or something) about how schools are to deal with Bulling and Sexual Harasment (they put these as both about as bad as you can get). Suspentions are automatic and the least punishment you can get now i think.