Did Jesus exist?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Dinosaur, Feb 19, 2018.

  1. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Nothing in my post prevents complex ideas being complex negative matter

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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I know its all a fairy tale but even within that context what you say is inconsistent. ..the devil is not the one who sends people to hell is he? And therefore the severity of punishement as to the length of time the punishment continues has nothing to do with the devil.
    The story does not add up.
    And why would the devil be happy to punish, what after all are, his type of people.

    Again this stuff is mere speculation constructed in times when folk were superstitious and believed in nonsense to explain the world around them using the only tool they had...speculation.
    Its all made up and it is sad that in this modern era any of this nonsense is taken seriously.
    Stupidy is clearly a dominate gene that is handed down for without it how else could these myths survive.
    Still you have the option to live with any truth you call the truth and clearly truth has no need of a relationship with reality in fact such a relationship is somewhat inconvenient.

    Tell me about the angels...in the story isnt the devil an angel who got fired...got fired...hell...it all fits.

    Alex
     
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  5. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting question.
    Answer..yes and no.
    The diversity is nice...you get to taste different kinds of food.
    However diversity is the focal point of extremists and fundamentalists.
    What would be good if all beliefs were abandoned and folk looked at the world as it is an not part of some nonsense unsupported speculation with no basis in gact or reality.
    Why not demand of citizens that any belief have some reasonable basis and foundation in reality.
    We would not eliminate diversity but certainly would go a long way to eliminate radical actions supposedly demanded by the un identified entity central to any particular belief.
    We would still have diversity in art, music, hobbies, fashion house styles and well make a list.

    All belief systems constrain diversity and if the followers of any particular belief system had their way all folk would have to be exactly like them.
    It is religious beliefs that hold humanity back.
    They shackle us to superstition and intollerance.
    They oppose change and they oppose science and above all oppose diversity.

    If religious beliefs were cast out of society diversity could flourish but while they pollute reasonable thinking and the disease is passed from one generation to the next humanity is doomed to stagnate and wither in unsupported superstition.
    Whilst we tolerate this horrible superstition as normal and acceptable humans will not evolve and they will miss a future that should be ours but which we are denied by folk still living in the bronge age...
    Alex
     
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  7. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    They exist in our hearts and souls, X. That's the connection you are missing. Do you know what rationalism is? It's religion without gods. Perhaps it is genetic, passed down from an old.
     
  8. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    Yet where are we now? We are the product of Christianity (for the larger part). Understanding your history will greatly increase your understanding of yourself, and others.
     
  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I dont think the concept of the soul has any basis in reality.
    It is mere speculation born of superstition and can be traced back to times when we had little science to explain reality.
    All that inhabits our hearts is blood that is a fact brought to us by science and an undeniable truth.
    To think our heart is our brain is clearly nonsense.
    And I regard myself most fortunate to be without such a non existent connection.
    From wiki...
    rationalism
    ˈraʃ(ə)n(ə)lɪz(ə)m/
    noun
    1. the practice or principle of basing opinions and actions on reason and knowledge rather than on religious belief or emotional response.
      "scientific rationalism"
      • PHILOSOPHY
        the theory that reason rather than experience is the foundation of certainty in knowledge.
      • THEOLOGY
        the practice of treating reason as the ultimate authority in religion.
    Why do you point it out?
    There is no religion without Gods.

    Religion was from a mother of ignorance and a father of superstition.
    It has both the qualities of its parents.
    It demands a God and there being non invents one and gives that God any quality which speculation provides.

    Imagine a world without religion where rational thinking was the norm unfettered by the nonsense that is religion.
    Where humans embrassed the notion of personal responsibilty rather than abdicate their ability to think and realise there is no God who cares and certainly no second take on their most precious life.
    I suggest the outrageous sense of entitlement humans exhibit may transform into a realisation that it is not just there for us...
    And entitlement is what religion promises...that sense of entitlement has no place and should be abandoned and outlawed.
    With the sense of entitlement removed would we care more about others and indeed the planet...of course we would.
    Each religion sees their group as above all others and I say that is simply wrong.
    If one does not consider entitlement wrong that would be a good indicator that they consider they belong to a group who is entitled.
    There is no heaven for non christians, in fact I think the bible does not include christians as having opportunity of heaven...but clearly heaven will be for those entitled.
    So wrong so very very wrong.
    But if you are raised with a sense of entitlement there is a blindfold over your ability to see just how wrong sense of entitlement is simply wrong.
    How could you be wrong given you are entitled to a better expectation than the next religion.

    Alex
     
  10. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    The expectation is a better outcome through personal effort. Most religions, at their core, preach that message. I think a rationalist would probably say much the same. There's also something to be said in finding strength in hope. For those in dire situations, the prospect of something better is all they have to keep themselves on their feet. Are we entitled to something better than misery? I think it's everyone's desire to be happy.
     
  11. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I understand and study history.

    I study many things but try to present as humble.

    History does not originate in the middle east...do you study the history of China, have you studied the history of India.

    History is not confined to a magical period spanning only 6000 years in a very small part if the world...the Mediterranean and Europe.

    History starts for civilized man not only in Egypt but in many other places in the world.

    America had a history before Europeans got there.

    Do you recognise history outside you special interest?

    Well I presume you could think that China and India and America are not part of history thats only those humans who God missed.

    If not for the Romans adopting Christianity would it have survived I wonder...and I think there us reason to believe that adoption was simply to standardise their society and reduce holly days to one religion...it made political but more important good economic sense. Why have various holy days for various Gods when you could have just one...and Roman law was well established before this conversion and if you dont know so much of our law today comes from the Romans pre christianity...

    You probably think I am anti semetic given your nazi ploy recently but as far as I can tell my daughter is a Jew, as is her mother and her mother before her and so on... and on my mothers side I am pretty sure much the same...I dont really know. .on my fathers side Irish and Welsh so no doubt all my ancestors have been oppressed and killed by some one who lauded their entitlement as gteater than theirs.. its not about that...a claim to heritage should not blind one to the present and why now we need to move on and shake off the superstitions of the past.

    Anyways history.
    I study history...I may not sound scholarly and really I try hard not to sound too smart..I think to do so is pretentious...I know what I know and have no need to show off..my need is to be understood and speaking simply is my choosen method..many are pretentious and I know they look down on me because they think I dont know stuff...which I actually do know...

    Walk quietly with a big stick is my approach.

    I have won so many battles because my opponent underestimated me because of an unpretentious style.

    And my study of history is not confined to the evolvement of the West or my ancestors involement in that evolvement...clearly we play a big part...and our religion has been central...but that does not mean there could not have been other ways...we base so much on law and yet assign the creation of law to a God when in real terms it is humans who create the law...sure we say this law or that law or this ethic or that ethic comes from God but that is nonsense...we, humans made the laws, we humans detrmined ethics and morals...not a mythical God.

    Or do you still believe Mosses sat down and scribed as God dictated...get real.

    Most laws came from folk simply trying to regulate community activity through economic necessity not some recognition of God.

    Humans make the laws, laws are a human concept we merely use a non existent God to give them authority and that is where things go wrong...Take back the responsibility we have abdicated and erradicate the sense of entitlement placed as a reward system to balance the threat of punishment and advance humans to a new level...out of the dark and superstition that religion has given us.

    Or do you insist that we should live much the same as we did in the bronze age.

    I really think I understand history and the developement of religion in particular.

    Religion has created a mess yet claims it made humans all they are...sure and you cant imagine a better alternative.

    It was and is finally about power and if you like history take that observation on board.

    Can you not think of a history that could have unfolded without our mono invisable good God bad God approach.

    Personally I would have left religion at the Sun worship stage...a few ceremonies to celebrate the season change and nothing more.

    Outlaw the nutters who want to sacrifice humans or annimals and just have a once a year maybe twice a year party..at least the Sun god is here most days and every day is supporting our existence and controling the weather...

    I would have kept the Sun as our object of respect..lets face it the Sun does more for us than a God who was clearly a personification of the Sun...and if you dont understand what I mean there then clearly it is you who does not understand history.

    It will take a long long time to get rid of the tribalism from our past..it was necessary back then but now humanity must become one big family...why is another story.

    Alex
     
  12. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    No - The real world is totally totally neutral with regards to entitlements

    In fact the real world not being sentient does not have any ability to be aware of our existence let alone pander to what WE perceive to be our entitlements

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  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Then there would be little reason to pray yet people do..their act of prayer is a clear abdication of personal responsibility and an attempt to capitalise on their percieved entitlement via their God.

    So they have a shitty life and do nothing because all will be good after they die and go to heaven.

    A bit of a cop out.

    And why cant you hope for good outcomes without a God.

    Heck I do.

    Hope is not something exclusively assigned to religious folk but the promise of hope confines their opportunity to deal with life realistically.

    The suggestion is that only religion can deliver one from misery.

    If our world was not based on entitlement which is a direct consequence of religious dogma I suggest we could be better off.

    Lets take other religions for a second..India ..if I am born into a wealthy family that is because I did good in a prior life and that beggar obviously was not very good at all...and that donkey how bad was that guy...and so I am entitled to all and may as well give that donkey a smack given its pre history.

    So although you can point to benefits I say there are other ways and indeed better ways...to refuse change and improvement wont see us go to a new level...whilst religion predominates irrespective of our technical advancement we will remain in the bronze age.

    We just have better stuff but our society no better.

    Alex
     
  14. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    The gods are the stupid parts anyway. No one thinks they are real.
     
  15. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    I think this needs to be addressed. My posting of the Nazi flag was me trying to find something--in the context of that thread--you might consider "Bad." Apparently I hit a nerve. It was not a reflection on you as a person. My guess is that you're probably an alright individual, judging from my limited knowledge. It never crossed my mind that you might be antisemitic. Quite the contrary.

    Where we might differ? I see religion--Christianity--as having played a role in my life. For better or worse, I accept that it IS there. And I'm making the most from it, or at least trying to understand it. Rather than rejecting it, I'm trying to embrace it. I can't deny its significance. To do so would be a disservice to myself.

    My apologies for any misunderstanding.
     
  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Explore it please do not embrace it.

    I often say to people that I am the best Christian they will ever meet but I dont believe in God, I dont believe Jesus was the son of God or that Jesus was resurrected. ...

    They seem surprised and confused.
    But
    I follow many of the teachings atributed to Jesus because they translate into practical ways to manage life.

    And often it is the christian that does not follow the teachings of Jesus.

    And I dont really believe he existed...but the little ways how to manage life are written down...they are probably the only real thing.

    Good ideas...little ways to manage life.. .az follows.

    Turn the other cheek..good advice rather than strike back or fire up think things through..no need to get into a street fight ..go to hospital fix the damage and sue the guy..whatever..rolling in a street brawl wont get you anywhere...if you can walk away that is the best option...
    I never had to do that because I was a fighter when young and never lost so its the other guy who would get badly beaten...and then he could sue me...so turn the other cheek good advice.

    Love your fellow man...a good reminded not to look down on anyone or look up to them in awe...love suggests an equal balanced relationship...no one less, no one more better or worse.

    Forgive...best advice...rather than wasting time planning revenge and laying awake at night stewing over some injustice you feel you have been on the recieving end...forgive them...get over it move on and do something creative.

    Avoid negative emotions...simple. Hate does nothing except make you sad..does not fix the object of your hate.
    Anyways there is a list of negative emotions. ....pride...how many people fall for that one...pride prevents you considering you could be wrong and investigate that posibility before you make your stand.

    And cultivate the good and positive emotions..Its in Mathew I think but if you are a christian and dont know what I talk about well....

    Its simple but you dont have to think God made up those rules ...just someone like you or me who saw no hope in continuing a street fight or laying awake every night planning revenge.

    And really avoid this spirituality trip...its delussional. .it feels good and mysterious...much like kids telling ghost stories...but really there is nothing real to grasp. ..its a feeling..no different to anger or love or hate and certainly nothing to indulge in when there is so much real life to experience.

    Write your own rules and I bet you come up with a good list...

    Count your blessings, do unto others, trust no one particulary yourself and never feel guilty...learn from your mistakes...look left and right and right again...dont look at the Sun...why do you think no one could look directly at God? Any ideas?
    Alex
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  17. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    The odds are they came from greater men than me long before I was born. As much as I would like to take credit, I recognize I'm simply part of longer chain of thought.
     
  18. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    The rules remain even though we killed the gods.
     
  19. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    And recognition that they could do better.


    Maybe mine or your situation that would be true. I can't speak for others.

    So do I, but I've never been in an impossible situation, such as waiting for heart surgery.

    As I said, hope sometimes gives people the strength to stay on their feet.

    Possibly individual action can, which may well be encouraged by religion and hope.

    Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness? "...which the Declaration says have been given to all human beings by their Creator, and which governments are created to protect." Where did that sense of entitlement come from?

    I'm sorry, X. I can't comment too much on that.

    I fear if we lose our spiritual nature, we will find ourselves worshiping something far worse. A spirit can't harm you as can a machine.

    I would be interested to know how it might be better.
     
  20. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Slave owners.
    Did these men own slaves and continue to own slaves?
    Motivation by fear is the worst motivation.
    Fear of eternal damnation is the prime motivator of the church (and I use the term to describe religion generally but select church because I suspect you can relate better to a church concept than a broard brush term religion).

    You may have guessed but I dont have a spiritual nature.

    I have no fear that I will worship anything or anybody...there is no need to worship anything or anyone..the concept of worship is wrong and outdated.

    Once gone it does not have to be replaced by another evil.

    Smokers give up and make the mistake of then eating lollies...they dont see they have a problem of constantly trying to fill some imaginary gap...the problem is not smoking or eating lollies...the problem is they feel every minute of every day they need a reward as if they are somehow entitled to constant reward.

    All the resources wasted upon houses of religion and labour could be redirected to do good in material outcomes rather than be monopolised in worship and make believe.

    Sure churches do some good but it is an incredibly inefficient system in my view.

    In addition if folk threw away the crutch that is religion they would have to think for themselves and for many realise that there need be no mystery to the world.

    And force them to grow up and not expect the present life is just one of two or many ( as with some religions).

    Also maybe we could stop folk simply making stuff up and justifying their speculations as a belief that cant be challenged because it is out of bounds because it is a belief.

    Heck if you claim you see a ufo you will be called upon to put up or shut up...claim there is a God then say but thats my belief I can make up any crap I wish. ..it is wrong.

    One should not be able to make up unsupported crap and elevate it past calls to put up or shut up.

    I think with religion out of the way maybe we could erradicate in part this entitlement belief of humans. .. get it out of their heads the world has been created for them and make them realise that as the top species our responsibility extends to all humans not just those of our religion and to the animals and even the vegetation. And indeed the planet..I see a change in mind set possible by taking away the belief that God gave man dominion over the animals etc.

    And wealth. .take away this notion of entitlement and no doubt there could be hope for a more equitable distribution of wealth.

    How many folk out there control their wealth and believe they have it because their God gave it to them.

    Leaders would need to find good reason for war rather than the enemy follows another religion.

    Getting rid of religion will take time a long time but when it is gone and historians look back to times that superstition effectively ruled the world, they and their students, will laugh at us for being so primitive and superstitious.

    Before computers we had no idea of a world where they would make life better and there is a future where superstition will not exist and it will be better and we will wonder why was there a need by humans to entertain fairy tales and embody those fairy tales in our society.

    And even in my time I have seen the power of religion diminish.

    Once the churches dictated so much of our lives and today fortunately many people just think they are a waste of time and an affront to modern thinking and science and indeed all reasonable things...many people have escaped their control.


    The church is stuck in the past and rejects change but as we know things that wont change will disappear.. because they can not or will not change...the church will be no different and year by year it withers until it will be no more.

    I see many churches sold and converted to homes and when a population is growing and the churches are being sold it suggests they are dieing out.

    One in Hornsby is being pulled down to put up a block of home units..how good get rid of a house no one lives in so people and families have a place to live where once it housed no one.

    Thats progress.

    Pull them all down and put up houses or home units.

    House people not a mythical God.

    The parasitic presence of religion will disappear and we will move on to a better world which we can not yet conceive.

    Their time is passing just like the mounted knights of old their time has passed.

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  21. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    I checked the Declaration of Independence and it appears to have been written in the type of religious language of the times

    However as per the extract, from comments, about the Declaration, it appears that had it been written as per a draft from Jefferson's

    *****

    Oshtur
    7/7/2015 12:00 AM GMT+0930


    Pretending we don't know Jefferson's intent is a bit disingenuous, we have his rough draft. The phrase 'nature's god' was lowercase. There was no reference to a creator initially at all but rather "that all Men are created equal & independent; that from that equal creation they derive in rights inherent & inalienable among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness", and the final appeal was not to a 'Supreme Judge' but "in the name & by the authority of the good people of these states."

    Speculate what you will about what the final document means but it was originally written without a whit of Judeo-Christian references.

    http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/roug... it shows it was lower case.

    That the final version pandered to the religious was just a smart move to increase emotional attractiveness

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nd-god/?sw_bypass=true&utm_term=.f49108d8c77f

    *****

    religion would not have got a look in

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  22. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    That was a pretty interesting answer, X. Thanks for taking the time. I think it would an interesting experiment to see what would happen if religion were to die. What you describe sounds like a utopia. Do you think it might have been tried at least once before?

    Maybe so.
     
  23. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    They were more philosophers than religious folk, that's for sure.

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