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Do homeopathic remedies contain measurable quantities of the "medicine"?
- Thread starter KUMAR5
- Start date
We anticipate too much about placebo. Whereas all healing mechanisms should be having some of its role in these since all individuals are not recovered similarily to sane healing agents. Hence all healings may depend on stimulas response by an agent of any healing system. That stimulus response can be psychological+ therapeutic, physiological or pathological, natural or unnatural etc. Where psychological stimulas can be common. One perceived to opposie can claim it as only responsible factir inspite of fact it shold be supplementry or catalyst factor.
Homeopathy is pseudoscience garbage. Why is it so hard for you to understand this?
Because it should not be true. Esp in view of many jaustifications discussed in this topic. All testings and most studies about jomeopathic remedies should be a big mistake if not avoidance in perceotion ir vested interests or a scam. Proceed subject anticipating it.
Just a note: even a low nind person should be able to understand, if a person exposes or try to expose secret of any system ehich is theirvmain basis of existsnce, should not be considered as a friend of that system but is sone sense can be a foe. So take it granted and treat me as a oerson just with curicity and logic not one sided.
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No gamble or delude but benefitted by added knowledge to me and to othere.
You're too far gone, I'll just put you on ignore and you can enjoy your ignorance without any interference from me.
Dude, not only are you ignorant of the basic facts of biology and chemistry, you cannot even spell the terms of the topic you are defending.
Imagine if someone here was trying to defend the flat Earth theory but couldn't spell "flat" or "Earth."
Sorry. Can happen due to typing on mobile i know you or others can still understsnd the sense which is more important than to be formal. Pls manage.
Upto you tovloose or gain.
On the topic of half life and dilutions:
Assume, for the sake of argument, that there are initially 64 molecules of a homeopathic ingredient in a given quantity of water.
Suppose that the following procedure is used to dilute the homeopathic solution (which homeopaths will tells us should only make the solution more potent - for some pseudoscientific reason):
We start with our 64-molecule solution and toss out half of it. Assuming that the molecules are evenly mixed into the water (we make sure we stir the solution thoroughly at each step) then in the tossing-out process we reduce the number of molecules of the homeopathic substance from 64 to 32. That is, 32 molecules get thrown down the drain with half of the original water.
Then, we top up the remaining solution to its original level, with pure water. That is, we now have 32 molecules of the homeopathic ingredient in the same quantity of water that we started with originally.
Now repeat the process. After stirring thoroughly, throw out half the solution and top up to the original level with fresh water, again. This time we expect that 16 molecules of the homeopathic ingredient will remain.
Repeat. After the third dilution, 8 molecules of homeopathic substance remain.
Repeat. After the fourth dilation, 4 molecules of the homeopathic substance remain.
Repeat. After the fifth dilution, 2 molecules remain.
Repeat. After the sixth dilation, only 1 molecule remains.
Repeat.
Now, at this stage, there's a 50% chance that the last remaining molecule of homeopathic substance is in the half of the solution that gets tossed down the sink in the next dilution, leaving zero homeopathic molecules. There's also a 50% chance that the last remaining molecule is in the half of the water that doesn't get tossed, so this dilution makes no difference and we still have one molecule left. But, we can say for sure that there's a 50% chance that there are no molecules left after the 7th dilution.
If we continue the process, then after the 8th dilution, we can say that there's a 75% chance no homeopathic molecules will be left in the solution. After the 9th dilution, there's a 87.5% chance. After the 10th dilution, there's a 94% chance that no molecules remain. And we can keep going for as long as we like, just to be really sure that no molecules of the homeopathic substance remains.
Now, in reality, the levels of concentration specified by homeopaths for "homeopathic solutions" guarantees, with very high confidence (based on the kind of mathematical reasoning given above) that the ready-to-deliver homeopathic solution will have ZERO molecules of the homeopathic substance in the water.
This is why homeopathy is bunk.
Some homeopaths understand this argument. To try to get around it, they invent spurious notions like claiming that water has a "memory" for substances that used to be dissolved in it. It doesn't matter, they tell us, if there are no actual homeopathic molecules left in the solution, because the water "remembers" that there were molecules in it at some point in the past. You just have to beleive that water magically remembers what used to be in it!
It's a bit of a mystery why water doesn't also remember that it used to have shit in it, or harmful chemicals or poisons, at some time in the distant past. I guess we'll have to ask the homeopaths why that is.
In fact, homeopathic preparations of lethal poisons have been prepared and drunk by many skeptics, with no adverse effects on their health. This also debunks homeopathy, because if homeopathy worked then those poisons should have become more potent as they were diluted, in the same way that homeopathic "medicines" are supposed to somehow become more potent when diluted.
I don't see KUMAR5 arguing that harmful poison molecules can "adsorb" onto surfaces of containers and thereby kill people, according to homeopathic principles. That's probably because that kind of thing is never observed in practice. Nor are any actual homeopathic "cures", of course.
Assume, for the sake of argument, that there are initially 64 molecules of a homeopathic ingredient in a given quantity of water.
Suppose that the following procedure is used to dilute the homeopathic solution (which homeopaths will tells us should only make the solution more potent - for some pseudoscientific reason):
We start with our 64-molecule solution and toss out half of it. Assuming that the molecules are evenly mixed into the water (we make sure we stir the solution thoroughly at each step) then in the tossing-out process we reduce the number of molecules of the homeopathic substance from 64 to 32. That is, 32 molecules get thrown down the drain with half of the original water.
Then, we top up the remaining solution to its original level, with pure water. That is, we now have 32 molecules of the homeopathic ingredient in the same quantity of water that we started with originally.
Now repeat the process. After stirring thoroughly, throw out half the solution and top up to the original level with fresh water, again. This time we expect that 16 molecules of the homeopathic ingredient will remain.
Repeat. After the third dilution, 8 molecules of homeopathic substance remain.
Repeat. After the fourth dilation, 4 molecules of the homeopathic substance remain.
Repeat. After the fifth dilution, 2 molecules remain.
Repeat. After the sixth dilation, only 1 molecule remains.
Repeat.
Now, at this stage, there's a 50% chance that the last remaining molecule of homeopathic substance is in the half of the solution that gets tossed down the sink in the next dilution, leaving zero homeopathic molecules. There's also a 50% chance that the last remaining molecule is in the half of the water that doesn't get tossed, so this dilution makes no difference and we still have one molecule left. But, we can say for sure that there's a 50% chance that there are no molecules left after the 7th dilution.
If we continue the process, then after the 8th dilution, we can say that there's a 75% chance no homeopathic molecules will be left in the solution. After the 9th dilution, there's a 87.5% chance. After the 10th dilution, there's a 94% chance that no molecules remain. And we can keep going for as long as we like, just to be really sure that no molecules of the homeopathic substance remains.
Now, in reality, the levels of concentration specified by homeopaths for "homeopathic solutions" guarantees, with very high confidence (based on the kind of mathematical reasoning given above) that the ready-to-deliver homeopathic solution will have ZERO molecules of the homeopathic substance in the water.
This is why homeopathy is bunk.
Some homeopaths understand this argument. To try to get around it, they invent spurious notions like claiming that water has a "memory" for substances that used to be dissolved in it. It doesn't matter, they tell us, if there are no actual homeopathic molecules left in the solution, because the water "remembers" that there were molecules in it at some point in the past. You just have to beleive that water magically remembers what used to be in it!
It's a bit of a mystery why water doesn't also remember that it used to have shit in it, or harmful chemicals or poisons, at some time in the distant past. I guess we'll have to ask the homeopaths why that is.
In fact, homeopathic preparations of lethal poisons have been prepared and drunk by many skeptics, with no adverse effects on their health. This also debunks homeopathy, because if homeopathy worked then those poisons should have become more potent as they were diluted, in the same way that homeopathic "medicines" are supposed to somehow become more potent when diluted.
I don't see KUMAR5 arguing that harmful poison molecules can "adsorb" onto surfaces of containers and thereby kill people, according to homeopathic principles. That's probably because that kind of thing is never observed in practice. Nor are any actual homeopathic "cures", of course.
JamesR, you're giving the notion of "half-life" too much credence within homeopathy just by trying to show how it might work. The fact is, half-life has NOTHING to do with homeopathy. It is a red-herring, a strawman, that you have latched on to. Continuing your analysis would lead one to conclude that after 12 such dilutions there would be 1 active molecule for every 4,096 water molecules. This sounds like a little, but there are c.6*10^24 molevules in just around 18 millilitres of water. Each dilution in homeopathy is not a halving, but a dilution of 1:100. Trying, in good faith, to show why the notion of "half-life" leads to nothing but water is really only confusing the matter, and will only serve to give KUMAR5 something to latch on to as yet another so-called "justification".
So let's just be quite clear: half-life has nothing to do with homeopathy. Zilch. Nada. Nil points.
Now, if there was a word for reducing to 1% each time....
But to be clear (for other people reading, not you, who I know understand this, but to avoid confusion with half-life) - each dilution in homeopathy dilutes 1:100, not 1:2.
So within 18 ml of a 12C solution you will have, on average, 1 molecule of active ingredient. There will be far more molecules of random pollution within the same water, as even lab-certified "ultrapure" water allows c.10 parts per billion.
The latest wave is all about "nano-particles", a field of study in conventional medicine that the homeopathic community have since latched on to. But from the homeopathic point of view, it still suffers from your next point:
Indeed.
Where have you been looking ? There all kinds of research going on , on water memory . Look on youtube .
Thanks for explaining in detail. Homeopath use water in next step in 1:99 ratio. I was not sure if we can çonsider dilution as a decay of origional substance. It is decay where 50% of origional quantity is always maintained in half life calculation and we may need to calculate it by tsking million or trillion molecules as base figure.
Moreiver toxicity relates to quantity not quality. Single molecule of any substance should not be lethal to us and probably plain drinking water should be having few molecukes as trace in every water which is not lethal to us..if not useful.
Anywwy, this half life 7th thought is just a logical speculation in view of half quantity is always maintained. So some quantity dhould also be alwsys maintained in case of any decay. If not possible other six will still remain.
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How it could deny other molecules ss per my 6 or 7 justifications in water memory testing, at least?
Probably water menory research is wrongly based(though not sure). It is checked by structural changes in water . But better I feel, its memory should be checked by changes in its contents.
Still however, we may feel different taste/feeling of water kept in different containers and in different environments. Sun ray color therapy is there.
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Research, yes. Scientifically demonstrated, no.