Pakistani Christian sentenced to death for insulting Mohammad by serving Muslims water. This is why most non-Muslims think of Islam as a racist ideology and why the Burka is banned in France. It's really that simple.
What a lot of codswallow....AGAIN True. I wouldn't waste your time posting it though: Sam won't be reading it anytime soon. Oh, fuck it, I'll just cut directly to the issue: as I think everyone quietly knows, Sam's "point" was to get across her religious arguments about how 'bad' a ban on the burkha is, because it's Islamic and she's Muslim, not to address any real overriding social issue or make any headway on real or perceived social ills. It's a Russian doll argument, except that the final doll is made of poo. I'll take the entirely empty risk of calling bullshit on the entire thread: bullshit. Done and done. Quadra nailed it when he commented on the requirement of the 'social classes' being required to wear their respective gear: a soldier, for example, is hardly a social stratum. Her whining about "guests" versus people falls on very appropriately closed ears, since her outrage is - and has always been - selective and her interest in social issues falling strictly on one side of the fence. (Those predisposed to now make a tu quoque argument may fill in the blank here:_____________________) Recommendation: close thread, warn gits as appropriate, and be done with it.
"under direct threat of punishment" so basically all the businessmen who wear suits and soldiers who wear uniforms are an oppressed class of people forced to conform to external social standards? What about legal rights? Can they take refuge in the law? Why don't they rebel? How did women start wearing pants? How did men start wearing shorts on the beach? What made swimsuits go from burqinis to bikinis? What brought about the change in social mindset? --------------------- continuing the debate on men telling women what [not] to wear and using social pressure to ensure conformity: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8652861.stm And what do women think of the headscarf [not the niqab] And Muslims in Belgium? On the ban in headscarfs in public schools in 2009: So whats the future? Non Muslim Belgian women wearing the headscarf while Muslims self segregate into the niqab? I wonder, is it still only 30 women who wear a full face veil in Belgium? If nothing else, its interesting to see the mechanisms of social conformity in action. ------------------------- So, I am curious to get some opinions here. How do you think social pressure on women to stop veiling is working out? Do you think it will work? Can you compel people to adopt/discard a clothing style under threat of punishment? Does the need for social conformity work in favour of those who want the hijab banned in Europe?
Short answer...because we're idiots. Partly I think it's an 'us and them' attitude. If you wear clothes that are different to the ones the majority culture says you should wear, you're seen as an 'enemy', however subconsciously. And the other part is that people like symbolism. They can't just accept that a black jacket is a black jacket - they have to read something into it. (Lol, and people can't even be consistent about that. Someone in a black leather jacket and black combat pants is a threat, someone in a black silk suit is being stylish. *sigh* fuck stupid people). What was I saying? Yup, people are idiots.
I would say it's just a social construct we abide by because we want to be accepted. However some subcultural expectations can be conflicting with other subcultures. Often times people are not willing to conform to every subculture's expectations especially if it means you might be compromising your connection to your own culture. For example, I've done a lot in the performing arts which often time means you are asked to wear some pretty bizarre costumes. When I did dance and cheer routines many of those costumes were very revealing, while wearing revealing costumes has never bothered me there are always a few people that I perform with who object to it, either because they are insecure about their appearance or more commonly they just aren't comfortable showing so much skin because of their upbringing or personal preferences. They annoy me because going against the grain causes conflict, but I put up with it because I'm the same way about body paint. I would rather forfeit my spot in a show than let someone paint me. People will go far to be socially acceptable, but everyone has their limits and for the most part I think those limits on attire should for the most part be respected.
:roflmao: crazy thread, crazy french women, both the duo and the graffiti artist. but what makes my heart tingly and sends a shiver down my spine is, it's not men who are standing up for the idiocracy of the french government, they're not the ones defending the culture and rights of their wives, mothers and daughters, but the women are actually the ones who are BOLDLY standing up for their own rights, and getting their voices heard louder and clearer than if men have defended them..i find that very...fascinating...
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Indeed. I wonder where they got the idea. Anyway, what about those women fighting for the right not to wear the veil? Do they make your bum all tingly too?
Umm thats probably because its the men dictating what the women should [not] wear. How do you think it would pan out if a woman took some guys clothing and replaced it with her choices of what he should wear? Mothers already do that, for example, by stitching lace on the botton of shirts to make sure they are kept tucked in. But how popular would it be on a social scale? My favourite episode so far is the retired schoolteacher ripping off the veil of the young girl to "teach" her about women's lib - its a classic example of what Prof Leila Khaled calls colonial feminism.
There are just as many women, many of the Muslim, that want to see the Burka banned in France. I don't think it should be banned. It should continue to be associated with the racist oppressive ideology it represents until the social pressure is great enough whereby we see the Burka as often as we see other face concealing racist clothing - like skin head ski masks and klanhoods. We should take our debates of Allah and Her real teachings to the primary school IMO.
That's not why she ripped it off. She felt threatened - attacked. She wasn't "teaching", she was fighting. And your mistake there is a fine example of the reactionary bigotry common among colonialists and others dealing from a position of presumed superiority in culture. Meanwhile, you have been confusing laws and employee rules and established best practices in a trade with "social conformity", in societies whose social rules you do not seem to have any understanding of (Scottish men in famously traditional men's clothing are in drag?) to the point your argument is impossible to thread out. What are you talking about? If the subject is gang colors, the jackets worn by bikers in the US or the burkas worn by Muslims in France, there are reasonable grounds for banning such specific items: they lead to violence. People who have automatically and visibly divvied themselves into opposing gangs tend to get into fights.
Ah so the laws and employee rules and established "best practices" are different from social conformity? I know she felt threatened - the point is, why. Why did a retired schoolteacher/lawyer [different accounts in diff papers but presumably an educated woman on any account] feel threatened by a womans clothing? How do you think that school teacher would feel if there was a ban on women going out without a veil?
Yes. Gang colors always threaten infidels - i.e. nonmembers. That is one of their major roles. They are backed by violence, and they do not answer to reason.
Ah interesting. So the burqa is now a gang colour and the schoolteachers/lawyers attack on the girl a pre-emptive attack on expected violence
Nothing "pre-emptive" about it - the threat is made, the reaction is to the threat. The question of whether the burka is a gang color or not is one of fact, not theory. Any item of clothing can function so, in some places and not others simultaneously. There are schools in the US that ban red hoodies, schools that don't have any problem with them. Most of the people in France seem to think the burka is functioning as a gang color in France. I leave it to their judgment - certainly a ban on such an ill-adapted specific item of clothing (France is pretty high latitude) would not be much of a hardship for anyone answering to reason.
Ah so womens choices of clothing in France are now dictated by these mores. Its not surprising at all to me, since reading into the history of Europe. As for ill adapted clothing well lets just say, this is the French we're talking about. Yes it does seem to be the social consensus in France that women be banned from wearing the burqa in public, does it not? Clearly the danger to French secular values from these 300? 3000? women cannot be underestimated What do you think of the video in the OP? And Princess Hijab? What kind of statement are these oppressed women making?
