Electric cars are NOT a pipe dream. Fossil fuel cars are for greedy, selfish people.

[joepistole]

Without a technological breakthrough electric cars were a pipedream. Well that technological breakthrough has occurred. An Israeli firm has created a new battery that can power a car for 1,000 miles. This breakthrough makes electric vehicles competitive and practical.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...00-miles-will-come-to-production-cars-in-2017

Your notion that people who use autos are greedy is just not grounded in fact. They are grounded in practicality.

 

[billvon]

Without a technological breakthrough electric cars were a pipedream. Well that technological breakthrough has occurred. An Israeli firm has created a new battery that can power a car for 1,000 miles. This breakthrough makes electric vehicles competitive and practical.

That would be great, but after seeing four decades of "breakthrough battery ends EV battery worries!" announcements I will hold off on the celebration. Aluminum-air batteries have been around since the 1970's and have a few problems. One is that they're not rechargeable. Another is that they are very sensitive to air quality (moisture, particulates etc) and that's plagued a lot of metal-air batteries over the years. Hopefully one of these days someone solves all the problems.

 

[joepistole]

That would be great, but after seeing four decades of "breakthrough battery ends EV battery worries!" announcements I will hold off on the celebration. Aluminum-air batteries have been around since the 1970's and have a few problems. One is that they're not rechargeable. Another is that they are very sensitive to air quality (moisture, particulates etc) and that's plagued a lot of metal-air batteries over the years. Hopefully one of these days someone solves all the problems.

True, but Phinergy claims to have resolved those issues making the technology practical.

 

[gmilam]

True, but Phinergy claims to have resolved those issues making the technology practical.

Not exactly...

Phinergy’s prototype Al-air battery has 50 aluminium plates, with each plate providing enough fuel for 20 miles. After 1,000 miles, the plates must be mechanically recharged — a euphemistic way of saying that the plates must be physically switched out. The Al-air battery must also be refilled with water every 200 miles, to replenish the electrolyte.

 

[joepistole]

One, no one ever said that the aluminum battery didn't need to be replaced. It is not a rechargeable battery. Two, it was not one of the problems Billvon identified that have been resolved by Phinergy. Three, the aluminum battery is an “extender” battery. It provides the car with an extended range. The car uses two batteries, a lithium battery and an aluminum battery. The aluminum battery powers the lithium battery which gives the car an extended range and that makes the car practical. Four, the inability to recharge the aluminum battery does not make the technology impracticable. The technology does not eliminate the Law of Entropy. It is not free energy. Instead of refueling with gasoline, you get your aluminum battery replaced every 1K+ miles and add water to the system every 200 miles or so. . .so yes, exactly.

http://www.gizmag.com/phinergy-metal-air-battery/26922/

Phinergy has signed a contract to commercialize its new technology and will have electric cars on the market in 2017 utilizing its new technology.

http://www.phinergy.com/default.asp?catid={00658B18-2755-468E-92CB-E66021BB4D4C}

 

[gmilam]

One, no one ever said that the aluminum battery didn't need to be replaced. It is not a rechargeable battery. Two, it was not one of the problems Billvon identified that have been resolved by Phinergy.

This is a bit convoluted...

It WAS one of the problems billvon listed (in fact it was the #1).

It is NOT one of the problems that has been resolved.

 

[cosmictotem]

One, no one ever said that the aluminum battery didn't need to be replaced. It is not a rechargeable battery. Two, it was not one of the problems Billvon identified that have been resolved by Phinergy. Three, the aluminum battery is an “extender” battery. It provides the car with an extended range. The car uses two batteries, a lithium battery and an aluminum battery. The aluminum battery powers the lithium battery which gives the car an extended range and that makes the car practical. Four, the inability to recharge the aluminum battery does not make the technology impracticable. The technology does not eliminate the Law of Entropy. It is not free energy. Instead of refueling with gasoline, you get your aluminum battery replaced every 1K+ miles and add water to the system every 200 miles or so. . .so yes, exactly.

http://www.gizmag.com/phinergy-metal-air-battery/26922/

Phinergy has signed a contract to commercialize its new technology will have electric cars on the market in 2017 utilizing its new technology.

http://www.phinergy.com/default.asp?catid={00658B18-2755-468E-92CB-E66021BB4D4C}

Interesting...how much does it cost to replace the battery?

 

[joepistole]

This is a bit convoluted...

It WAS one of the problems billvon listed (in fact it was the #1).

It is NOT one of the problems that has been resolved.

I guess you missed the part about the aluminum battery being supplemental to the lithium battery.

 

[joepistole]

Interesting...how much does it cost to replace the battery?

It's a good question. I don't know. But if the replacement cost is $150 or less it is competitive with gasoline. A standard car battery costs about $50-60. Apparently Phinergy and the auto companies it is working with think it is competitive else they wouldn't be making the investment in commercialization of the technology.

And it is important to note that the aluminum battery is recyclable.

 

[KitemanSA]

Current reactors use U-235 as fuel. We have about 200 years worth of accessible U-235 at current rates of consumption.

Right, and in that 200 years, nothing else will ever be invented... no wait, they already have. Liquid Fluoride Thorium Recyclers (LFTRs) use thorium and there is enough of that to last almost till the sun burns out. The 500Ma was a conservative estimate. I've seen some that say ~4Ga.

Several utilities have stated that without government underwriting of nuclear power plants via Price-Anderson they would never build new reactors. Like I said, they're not a bad choice, but they're expensive.

The only thing the Price Anderson Act does is protect them against the idiocy of the current legal system. Its like saying medicine is too expensive cause some doctors can't afford their malpractice insurance.

Ammonia is not a bad method to transport hydrogen; the problem we have is that we don't have hydrogen. We can make it, but it's energy intensive - and if we have the energy we have better uses for it. We can make it from natural gas easily (via steam reforming and the Haber-Bosch process) but again, best to just use the natural gas directly in that case.

LFTR electricity plus SSAS is the way I'd go.

If we ever get to a day when we have more energy than we know what to do with, hydrogen (most likely transported as either ammonia or methane) will become a good energy carrier.

Think LFTR, Energy Cheaper Than Coal!

 

[billvon]

I guess you missed the part about the aluminum battery being supplemental to the lithium battery.

That's going to be one expensive (and heavy) car, if it requires both sets of batteries.

"Mechanically recharged" batteries (i.e. batteries that are replaced either wholly or in part) have been around for a long time, but they've never gotten much traction, no pun intended. For one thing you are relying on the quality of someone else's batteries (or battery electrodes) and batteries are complex enough electrochemical systems; there are going to be problems with not getting a "good" exchange for the battery (or plates.) Secondly it's just plain hard to swap 55 pounds of aluminum (which means ~100 pounds once you add in frames, seals etc.) Perhaps you could open a new kind of service station with "battery exchangers" who will do the heavy lifting, although adding labor requirements is a good way to jack cost way up.

The aluminum-air battery is a good option, one that's worth looking at. But it's certainly not the solution that "makes electric vehicles competitive and practical" the way a cheaper, higher energy density, longer life secondary battery would be.

 

[billvon]

Right, and in that 200 years, nothing else will ever be invented... no wait, they already have. Liquid Fluoride Thorium Recyclers (LFTRs) use thorium and there is enough of that to last almost till the sun burns out. The 500Ma was a conservative estimate. I've seen some that say ~4Ga.

Yep, they have possibilities. So do CANDU's and MOX-fueled light water reactors. So do breeders and HTGR's. So does D-T fusion. One of them will probably work out.

The only thing the Price Anderson Act does is protect them against the idiocy of the current legal system. Its like saying medicine is too expensive cause some doctors can't afford their malpractice insurance.

If malpractice insurance was so expensive that NO doctors could practice, then yes, medicine would be too expensive. You might decide to get the government to subsidize them in that case - but it would mean that we'd all pay a lot more for medical care, the costs would just be "hidden" in our taxes.

Think LFTR, Energy Cheaper Than Coal!

Lewis Strauss (chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission) on nuclear power, 1954: 'It is not too much to expect that our children will enjoy in their homes electrical energy too cheap to meter.' That was 1954.

LFTR's might work out, as may many other nuclear options. But the "nuclear power, super cheap!" meme has been used so much - and been wrong so often - that no one is going to hold their breaths.

 

[joepistole]

That's going to be one expensive (and heavy) car, if it requires both sets of batteries.

"Mechanically recharged" batteries (i.e. batteries that are replaced either wholly or in part) have been around for a long time, but they've never gotten much traction, no pun intended. For one thing you are relying on the quality of someone else's batteries (or battery electrodes) and batteries are complex enough electrochemical systems; there are going to be problems with not getting a "good" exchange for the battery (or plates.) Secondly it's just plain hard to swap 55 pounds of aluminum (which means ~100 pounds once you add in frames, seals etc.) Perhaps you could open a new kind of service station with "battery exchangers" who will do the heavy lifting, although adding labor requirements is a good way to jack cost way up.

The aluminum-air battery is a good option, one that's worth looking at. But it's certainly not the solution that "makes electric vehicles competitive and practical" the way a cheaper, higher energy density, longer life secondary battery would be.

Time will tell. I recall hearing aluminum battery weights 55#. Apparently industry insiders and investors think the technology is commercially viable as they are committing to commercial production by 2017.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

I would like to point out the obvious. I would love to have an all electric car if it has a range of about 300 to 400 miles on a charge, and I can find a recharge station as easy as I can find a gas station now. Next and even more important if I could afford to buy one.

In the mean time I can still afford a new car like the Mosda6 Diesel which will show up in the US latter this year and will cost a little over $20,000 and get 56 mpg. This is a new technology diesel engine that passes all our strict emission rules without adding a lot of exhaust scrubbers and I would probably die before I ever needed another car. But if that makes me a greedy bastard, so be it. I still have to get around in some kind of vehicle that I can afford to drive.

 

[billvon]

I would like to point out the obvious. I would love to have an all electric car if it has a range of about 300 to 400 miles on a charge, and I can find a recharge station as easy as I can find a gas station now. Next and even more important if I could afford to buy one.

The Tesla Model S 85kwhr version has a range of 280-300 miles. The "afford" thing is a problem though. Right now there are about 300 recharge stations in San Diego. One of the nice things about EV's is that you can put a charger in a parking lot and plug in your car while shopping/eating; don't have to make a special trip. (And outlets are a LOT cheaper than gas pumps.)

 

[leopold]

the biggest problem i see with electric cars is they don't use existing infrastructure.
in that regard another source for oil should be sought.
this would be an area where GMO research would be invaluable.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

The Tesla Model S 85kwhr version has a range of 280-300 miles. The "afford" thing is a problem though. Right now there are about 300 recharge stations in San Diego. One of the nice things about EV's is that you can put a charger in a parking lot and plug in your car while shopping/eating; don't have to make a special trip. (And outlets are a LOT cheaper than gas pumps.)

San Diego, damn I can't afford to live there either. I suppose some public and private parking lots could set aside charging spaces that you would need a permit for, similar to handicapped parking spaces.

 

[billvon]

the biggest problem i see with electric cars is they don't use existing infrastructure.

?? Roads and outlets?

in that regard another source for oil should be sought. This would be an area where GMO research would be invaluable.

As in GMO's used to make fuel? Right now both algae and yeast have been used with pretty good results. What further advantages would GMO's give you?

 

[leopold]

?? Roads and outlets?

gas stations and refineries.
industry will be more receptive to new ideas that makes use of already proven technology.

As in GMO's used to make fuel? Right now both algae and yeast have been used with pretty good results. What further advantages would GMO's give you?

i can think of a few advantages.
1. the raw material can be almost anything.
2. there could very well be no waste, what waste is created could easily be converted into something usable.
3. it will further our understanding of GM organisms.
and the biggie:
4. why stop at gas manufacture? create an organism that will power the car itself that uses special nutrients that are supplied by current gas stations.

 

[cosmictotem]

Getting back to one of the main points of this thread: There is NOTHING wrong with electric cars (but the price.)

People are using electric cars now. It is us that has something wrong. We claim the electric car can't serve our needs and yet our needs were served for thousands of years by horse and wagon. But somehow electric cars are not good enough. Hogwash! Electric cars do not need to be adjusted. We do. Start using electric cars, make them affordable and the infrastructure will come.