Entropy contradict Evolution

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Hadeka, Jul 29, 2004.

  1. b0urgeoisie I am the Bourgeois Registered Senior Member

    Hey Mac! Did 786 actually say that? That they are just a kid? I missed it. But, it would explain things.
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  3. b0urgeoisie I am the Bourgeois Registered Senior Member

    Perfect! You see? That is how it is done. If you hear a new idea, and it makes even a little sense, this should be the approach we all take. You should not have the common attitude that spawns thoughts like - I knew it. I knew everyone else on earth was wrong. I will forever hold this as canonized doctrine.
    It is just as wrong to say - But, I have believed something different for too long. I could never accept this new voodoo magic they call evolution. (or whatever the idea)

    kula, you are an example to us all. You acted and spoke (well...typed) brilliantly. You believe something that is not in line with this new idea. You didn't leap blindly out of your boat. But, rather, you said "I'll look at it. I think I'm correct. But, if I'm wrong now I'd rather know it. Because it is OK to be wrong. Enjoy your read. Sorry about my rant but stubborn thinking has no place in science. But, this thread is full of it.
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  5. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    I know this is the classic example of creationists, and there are probably better responses on the net, but here goes,

    As far as the evolution of eyes, we know that eyes can form gradually because examples of the many stages of eye evolution can still be observed in nature. Each step along the way was useful enough to be preserved to this day by some creature. First we have the light sensitive cells which existed since the time of plants. Then we can see creatures with many light sensitive cells all over their body like the starfish, then there are others where the cells are clustered in a knot (the primitive eye)as in some worms, then cells with a fluid filled membrane, then collections of light sensitive cells with a fluid filled membrane, like the compound eyes of insects. Then the development of just a few highly developed eyes as in spiders. Then true binocular vision, as the brain developed to process the information. From light sensitive cells to eyes only requires the addition of a fluid filled membrane that forms a lens. Even a primitive lens could be beneficial in some way.

    Another example of this kind of evolution is flight. There are insects that use flapping to propel themselves across the surface of the water. This is an example of flight-like behavior or primitive wings that, even though they can't fly yet, are still usefull in some way.
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  7. MacM Registered Senior Member

    He stated he is 15 but is taking college biology and has cornered his professor into admiting evolution is on shaky ground.!!!

    Frankly there is a difference in being smart and being a smart ass. I'm still trying to decide which he is.
  8. MacM Registered Senior Member

    No I did not mis-interpret. You are asking for calculations which have no direct bearing on the issue of positive evolution orhter that evolutionary rate.

    And whatever number you give me I will say has no bearing on evolution other than perhaps rate of change. Harmful mutations atrophy from the jpopulation reproductive cycle. That is they don't multiply. that doesn't impact the beneficial rate of reproduction other than controlling the size of the reproductive group, hence rate of decreased entrophy (the initial topic here vs evolution).
  9. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

    Yeah, I did. You guys think that kids don't have a mind, or they can't think. This debate is not the matter about age, but about what one knows.
  10. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

    You don't get it do you. So let me just ask you this using your math. How many 'beneficial mutations' will 1 animal experience? I'm not talking about population, just so you know.
  11. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Perhaps the earth is working like a mind, that is the Gaia Hypothesis.

    There is no idea of the final product in evolution, only pressures that force things in a certain direction. I did not imply at all that animals wanted something and got it, that is your creationist bias. There is no need of a director in this process, it is the accumulation of small changes over vast periods of time, encoded into DNA. Animals and plants only want to survive and reproduce. Natural selection does know what is good or bad, either they live or die, or they live better, and die less often. Animals aren't built, they grow- qualitatively different process. Species that exist now are also not the end product, they will change, too. Humans included - evolution is not finished, we may be an evolutionary dead end like so many others.

    Why are there unique species existing on isolated islands when the islands only formed comparatively recently?

    90% of all species that ever existed are now extinct, how could God make such enormous mistakes?
  12. b0urgeoisie I am the Bourgeois Registered Senior Member

    I took those classes in high school too! The "professor" is hero with a bio degree. He probably works at the gym. All he really wants is to get those kids to join whatever multi-level marketing game he has going when they are 18. He doesn't believe in evolution because he got his degree on line anyway.
    If he is a real professor he teaches to 18 schools in his county by CCTV. The kid probably turned in a paper with allot of research into propaganda videos and used the comments of those Jackasses to base his thesis. He probably only hates evolution because his protestant momma told him she felt very progressive when she didn't fight the school about teaching it in school. But, she had a special date when he learned from the Bible how evolution is OK for science but not for him.
    His original bias led to his "research" His research was written by older versions of himself. When he turned in his paper it was well written. Because it, was well written when, it was first published on line. When he got his paper it had a good grade and a positive comment. The professor read it once through. (or, if he/she is a real professor he/she had his/her assistant read them.) At least, 50% of professors could say "You make a good argument" believing in his heart "Your going to retire from Denny's 'kid', believe whatever you want."
    OK it was probably a legit prof. at a legit satellite junior college. Where, "the real thinkers" are. That's where the revolution is going to start. Everyone knows that!
    Sorry, 786 I'm not really making fun of you. I'm hoping that this will appeal to your twisted version of science is. If you take one little fact and add a good imagination, you can invent some amazing believable stories. I'm sure non of this is true. Want to know something that sucks? When you go to school for real, those classes are only as good as P.E. It's BIO 1010 at best. Which most Majors would skip anyway. Any half-retarded monkey could teach that class.
    (You have to be a real scientist to get this.)
    Ask any 1010 kid what our species name is and most of them are just educated enough to answer "sapiens".
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2004
  13. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

    You are a good story writer. Ok let me say something now.

    First I said that I am 15 years old, and go to High School, and have taken biology.

    then people started criticizing me for my small age.

    Then I said I took College level Biology.

    People like you criticized me, that the that so-called proffesor wasn't anything good. But you people still started criticizing me.

    Now let me tell you something that I didn't say so far.

    Did you ever went you UW? (University of Washington)
    It is one of the top Universities in the WORLD, in Medicine.

    That is where I took my Bio classes. That so-called "professor" is a Professor at UW.

    I think that should keep your mouth shut now. BTW I'm sorry for you people. Who think that a kid can't think or know anything like an Adult. You people don't even act like adults to me, criticizing a kid when you don't you the background.

    This is what you people are. You judge a book by it's cover.
    By what you just showed me. I can easily say that you went to school learned Evolution, and Tha DAh! Evolution is true. I have no doubt in mind, anymore that you people really just believe what science told you, even though it is a bluff.
  14. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

    Anyways, continue critizing me. This is very good observation, on how adults act on stuff like this. Good stuff but so far I am very disappointed with the reactions of "adults".
  15. MacM Registered Senior Member

    Great a teenager that thinks he is smarter than all adults; including those with Phd's and decades of actual hands on experience.

    Now let me critique your comments above in light of the trends of our educational system over recent decades. That is the introduction of phonetic spelling, new math and relaxed standards for qualifications to be a teacher and the use of hand calculators instead of learning the times tables, etc.

    The consequence simply put is that kids today, through no fault of their own, have been cheated of an education and cannot spell, read nor think logically.

    Now there are exceptions to the general rule and to be fair to you I have restrained my judgement until now. Sometimes posters here are using English as a second language and poor word usage or spelling, or even typo's are really not appropriate to comment on but you have now indicated to me at least that that is not the problem with your communication skills:

    (My unnumbered rewrites follow your numbered quotes)

    #1 - Did you ever went you UW? (University of Washington)

    "Did you ever go toUW? (University of Washington)"

    "Have you ever attended classes atUW? (University of Washington)"

    #2 - "Anyways, continue criti.zing me. "

    "Anyway, continue criticizing me. "

    "In any case please feel free to continue criticizing me. "

    #3 - This is very good observation, on how adults act on stuff like this.

    "Posts here have provided very good demonstrations of how adults respond when challenged by a more youthful person."

    (Sorry for the complete re-write but your composition is almost unintelligble)

    #4 - Good stuff but so far I am very disappointed with the reactions of "adults"

    "These discussions have been interesting but so far I have been very disappointed with the responses"

    (Ditto on the comosition comment above) Also you don't know the age of the posters you are responding to so your comment directed at "adults" is inappropriate.

    To wrap this up.

    a - Like it or not you are 15. You do not know everything and certainly do not know more than all, or even most, adults regardless of their educational background and certainly you do not know enough about evolution to challenge those that wrote the books you are studying from and those that are working hands on in the field advancing our knowledge.

    b - While you seem to be more knowledgable than most 15 year olds and claim to have a zeal for science, you appear more interested as being viewed as a genius or prodigy; which you clearly are not.

    c - If your writing and composition skills are at the level indicated above, I must question your reading and mathematics capabilities as well. Perhaps that explains why you fail to understand the simple mathematical propagations of evolutionary mutations. Or why you failed to respond to my simplified demonstration of the almost incomprehensible magnitude of mutations available in a breeding population from which actual evolutionary change advances and why you haven't responded to the challenge to show the steps for extracting the square root of a number by pencil and paper and your own mind.

    SUMMARY: THE ADULTS ARE EVEN MORE DISAPPOINTED IN YOU. You want respect learn to give it. Learn to listen before you speak. Your making snide or derogatory comments about others understandings or making claim that something is impossible simply because it violates your ability to comprehend, is not good science nor a means of learning science.

    Your time has been wasted here. Not that we can't learn from you but that we have already learned science as it is generally understood and you can't teach us what you do not understand yourself. You really do not understand the process which you claim is invalid.

    Understand this: I do not fault you entirely. But the simple truth is that getting an "A" today in most schools is the equivelent of getting a "C" or "D" just a few decades ago. So being "Top of Your Class" no longer has meaning. You have to be truely superior and not just meet todays standards.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2004
  16. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

    I never said I knew everything. And I don't expect to learn "everything". But I know what I learned. And I know what I am learning. I know what I am doing.

    I have listened to you, but you don't seem to give a convincible argument. And you think I don't give you any convincible arguments. At this rate we reach no conclusion.

    As for the writing skills. I write without much concentration. I usually relax when I write. And making mistakes during typing are very easy.

    As for me thinking of myself as a "genius". That is simply an assertion. I don't expect to win this debate. Nor do I expect to lose. I'm just trying to show you what I have come to know about the so-called "theory". It is your choice, that you understand my point or not.

    And if you are done talking about me, then I would appreciate us getting back to the debate.
  17. MacM Registered Senior Member

    Yep, what you are doing is taking a little bit of knowledge and thinking you know much more than you actually do.

    See you are wrong once again. I have reached a conclusion. You just don't like it.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Granted typo's are easy. I and most make them but I was not addressing typo's. I was addressing words usage and meaningful sentance construction. If you ever expect to be taken seriously you do need to learn proper english or at least english that isn't so clearly an expression of today's typical youth.

    Correction. What you think you have learned. You have a long way to go. Understanding is totally different than accepting. I do not accept your analysis. It is shallow and misapplies the facts. You are adding 2 + 2 and getting 3 or 5.

    Go ahead but you still haven't convienced me (and I suspect many others) that you actually understand what you are trying to talk about. Part of that has to do with my post about you. It wasn't an attack. It was an observation which brings your credability to zilch.

    Now have you ever been taught to extract square roots or not? Have you ever used a slide rule? Do you know how they function?

    This may not appear to you to be important as it doesn't apply directly to the issue at hand but it is important because it relates to the depth of your training in todays educational system practices.

    It relates to whether or not you have acceptable reading comprehension and understand the meaning of words. That was my point above, not a personal attack. It goes to your belief that you have learned something which is infact a gross mis-interpretation of what the author meant.

    Look don't think I am putting you down. Long before your daddy got hair on his balls I went to nuke school. As a Freshman in Highschool I was tested and was equivelent to a Senior on most things and to 2nd year college in Science. I thought I was pretty smart.

    The first symmester I got a D- in mathematics. I had to bust my ass to catch up but I ultimately graduated only 0.1 point from top in the class.

    I managed to make the corner because I found out real quick just how much I didn't know. I truely think a simular lesson could do you good.

    At your current level you should be asking questions of those that actually know and understand the evolutionary process. It is OK to ask questions and to challenge but it is down right dumb to assume you know more than those truely qualified in the field and to continue to assert you know better and they are wrong.

    Try to learn before you try to teach.

    Now please continue.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2004
  18. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

    Ok. Well I haven't been taught to do the square roots (by hand) in class. But I do know how to do them. My brother was in Calculus. I am very interested in Math, because that is my strong subject and it seems easy to me. So while he was doing Calculus I asked him if he knows how to do Square Roots by hand, it seemed hard to me. He said yes, and taught me how to do them. So yes I do know how to do Square Roots but I don't know anything about slide rulers.

    Anyways lets get back to the debate. I'll post mathimatical probability of Mutations. Right now I'm little tired. But I might post.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2004
  19. MacM Registered Senior Member

    Thanks for at least apparently being honest. That being so I actually expect you may learn to learn here. Having done that you will be in a stronger position to make challenges. Right now it does seem your challenges are based on a lack of understanding of the consequences of the affects involved and not some greater understanding than what appears in science texts.
  20. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

    My 2 cents;

    786 there is no doubt that you are heading in the right path, however do take advise from Mac, others, and evaluate your own conclussions. I say this because as a teen I was also a smart ass theist, though through much learning, specially in the field of philosophy, psychology, I came to the conclussion that theistic beliefs were nothing more than ancient mythology based on ignorance and mysticism.

    I'm not very strong in science, evolution theory is something very new to me, I didn't accept the notion of creationists, do to phylosophical premise, not scientific though still learning. I've learned from watching you debate, and my realization is that even though you may be wrong about your observations you do have the desire to learn. So you must evaluate what Mac, alpha, Raithere, and others are telling you and draw your own educated conclussions. But don't rely in mis-interpreted information.

    Theists, fool the young, and make rationalizations with out having all the facts, a good place to learn evolution theories is talk oringins this site has been given to you many times thorught out this debate, I suggest that you go there and learn thoroughly the evolution scientific data provided. Talk origins also has a forum were you can ask questions, and get debates. I'm sure there you will learn much of your questions.

  21. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

    I have already went through the site. (Talk Origin). But thanks for your reply.

    I will write soon, I have to go to mall right now.
  22. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Then I said I took College level Biology.

    Yeah, sure you did. You would have never made it to a college level biology course without first understanding the basics, and quite clearly you don't have a clue.
  23. b0urgeoisie I am the Bourgeois Registered Senior Member

    786 I am sorry I came down on you so hard. I didn't realize you were just a kid. You are very smart. I thought you were someone older who should know better. Keep learning. You're doing fine.

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