Evolution vs. Creation

B

Boris

Guest
Ok, I have now seen one post too many agreeing that Darwinism is just another religion, and dismissing it altogether in this, the enlightened, age.

Tell you what, people. This is it. As Lori puts it, the shit is going down. Right here, right now. Let's have at it, shall we?

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I am; therefore I think.
 
So ok. I guess too many of us have read Sunday School textbooks detailing all the flaws of Natural Selection, and how it could never have happened. I've seen quite a few books like that myself, which amazes me because we are practically surrounded by evidence to the contrary: that Evolution is for real, and it's happening even as we speak!

Want some examples? Here we go:

1) viruses and bacteria constantly adapting to antibiotics.
2) your own immune system constantly adapting to new pathogens.
3) pests evolving resistance to pesticides.
4) hybrid plants appearing through cross-pollination.
5) mutant animals being born in all species, all over the globe. Ever met a person with 6 fingers on each hand? I have! Plus, what do you think is the cause of the majority of miscarreages?
6) genetic diseases/disorders/deletions/misconfigurations passed on from generation to generation along family lines.
7) increase in dominant genetic aberrations as a result of inbreeding.
8) artificial evolution, in the form of breeding. Ever considered where all the different kinds of dogs came from? Cows? Horses? Cats? Now, how could a Chihuahua and a German Shepherd possibly have a common ancestor? Any suggestions?!
9) An isolated village in Mediterranean consists of people incapable of getting high levels of blood cholesterol. They are so isolated, they can all practically trace their origins back to a single family. They have 'evolved' resistance to high-fat diet, and suffer no increased risk of heart attack even if they feed solely on 100% lard. Currently, active research is being done on them to see how their bodies solved the problem, and whether the solution is applicable to other less fortunate ones.
10) Genetic diversity is everywhere. Humans, being among some of the least genetically diverse species, are nevertheless staggeringly different from one another.
11) Thousands of American Indians were wiped out by chickenpox -- a disease Europeans were highly resistant to. Why do you think that was?

Ok, enough with examples; I'm never going to list all of them, though I'm sure others will add to the list. On to the next issue:

The entropy arguments. I've heard way too many people reason that the universe should progress toward chaos, not order -- and therefore the growing complexity of biological systems due to evolution is contrary to the laws of thermodynamics. Wrong!!! Such arguments arise because of lack of understanding of the very physical laws people call to their support.

Let me assure you, that even as the biological systems get more complex, the amount of disorder in the universe grows. Complexity always grows at the price of increased disorder overall. For example, liquid water vapor can form intricate ice patterns on windows in winter, but only at the cost of radiating its heat away -- thus adding to the entropy of the universe. The various biological molecules only can combine and recombine given net energy input; the Sun is the main provider of this energy. And ultimately, the complexity is destroyed anyway and radiated away as heat. Yes, we are complex -- but only at the cost of profusely increasing the universe's entropy.

You know why complex biological systems don't degrade toward simpler ones? The answer is surprisingly simple, if only you actually paid attention to your biology teacher -- survival of the fittest!!! The whole point of the growing biological complexity lies in abilities to withstand environmental shocks, successfully obtain food (energy), successfully reproduce, escape predators, and adapt to changes in the environment. Guess how intelligence evolved? It's eat, and try not to be eaten.

It astonishes me to hear people question dating techniques, and the fact that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. Hey geniuses, have you ever bothered to check into the actual physics involved? It's really not all that complicated! Do you realize that carbon dating is not the only technique used, and that multiple, varied approaches all converge on the same result? Or maybe we should just ignore the work of scientists over the past few centuries, and prefer to take on faith what the Holy Bible teaches us about the natural world?! Can you say, "denial"?

The 'missing link' arguments. Lamest excuses for an argument out there. Just because something hasn't been found yet, doesn't mean it never existed! May I remind you that fossilization is not a deliberate process, that we are lucky to even have what we do have? But even given the currently 'spotty' record of how species changed over time, I think the dots simply beg to be connected! Grab a popular paleobiology book, and take a look at just the skeletal morphology similarities -- you'll be amazed!

But evidence for evolution is not just in the fossils. All life on earth uses the same fundamental molecule: DNA. Sound strange to anybody? Or how about the fact that all life on earth possesses mitochondria in its cells? Ever pondered the question of why human DNA is 98% the same as that of chimps? Ever wondered why we look and function so much like chimps? Ever wondered why the sensors in your ears and eyes are bathed in liquid? Ever taken a look at the amazing structural similarity between the brain of a rat and a human? Why all plants and all animals use sugar-based energy storage, and operate with ATP and ADP as energy containers?

Ever considered the vastness of the evolutionary 'laboratory'? I've heard complaints that such a marvelous thing as a human being couldn't possibly evolve so quickly. Billions. As in thousands, of thousands, of thousands of years! Over the entire surface of planet Earth! A mile into the sky, and several miles underground! These are the dimensions of the evolutionary experiment. And it's not random; by all means no. It's a *directed* random search, where bad variants are discarded immediately, and only the best and most viable are kept for the next generation. Countless generations. Countless individuals. Spread out over vast territories. And every single one, born and unborn alike, a separate toss of the dies. As agents of evolution, we have random mutations, cross-breeding, infections, and selective breeding. Yes, selective breeding -- as in when females prefer only a certain kind of male and vice versa. Nobody to supervise -- just a species pruning its own genetic tree.

How did it all begin? How could such complex biomolecules arise out of nothing? This, in my opinion, is the only worthwhile challenge to evolution. Anything else is basically ignorance of the theory and its underpinnings. But even if we don't know how exactly it got started, the picture of how it progressed is crystal clear.

So, how did it all start? That's the cutting edge of biochemical research. We already have evidence of amino acids forming spontaneously in all sorts of situations. We also have experiments showing how primitive 'cell walls' form in suspensions of lipids. I'm not a biochemist, so I don't keep up with all the latest and most exciting breakthroughs. But I'm sure someone here with more biology/chemistry background will be able to supply a better view of this issue.

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Now, let me ask you all another question. Given the abundant, multidisciplinary, ever-growing evidence for evolution, what do you have to say for creationism? How can you possibly find it more convincing than evolution? Or has there been recent evidence for the fact that women are indeed created out of a man's rib? Or maybe you could explain to me the lack of intelligence when it comes to the design of biological systems? Wherefore genetic diseases? Why does a developing human embryo first look like a fish, then like a lizard? Why do humans have vestiges of a tail at the end of our spinal column? Why do we not all have dark black skin, since it's obviously advantageous against the sun? Why do we still have hair over our bodies, when it definitely no longer serves any useful purpose? Why are our brains wired up in such a haphazard and disorganized manner? Why are women's pelvises so narrow, causing such great pain and risk during birth? What's the appendix for? Why are we forced to consume other lifeforms for energy, rather than just generating energy from light like the plants do? What's the point of sleep? And so on, and so forth.

May I also remind the local zealots, that their highest authority when it comes to interpreting the bible -- the Pope himself -- has conceeded that evolution is for real. Though I realize that a lot of you don't succumb to authority (except when it comes to Bible) -- and spin your own interpretations. Just thought I'd mention the fact though.

Now, since you're all so convinced that evolution has failed, let's hear some replies. I just can't wait...

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited May 30, 1999).]
 
Wow, Boris...You impress me. You're brain is definately in overdrive. You ask really good and valuable questions, but let me ask you this...Why is it that creation has to be -vs- evolution? You are thinking "in the box" like many Christians have for ages? Creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive. There was creation (you know, the part that we can't seem to explain), and then the resulting evolution here on earth. The Bible tells us that we were created, but does not tell us HOW, from a scientific stand-point anyway. And you know, that's OK with me. I don't necessarily have to understand all of the scientific details in order to make a judgement call in a generalistic manner. You say that apes are 98% our genetic equivalent. I have also heard that dolphins are too. How about this...(and this is purely "out of my ass", but none the less) maybe God, or creationism IS the missing link. Many people out here say that they believe that aliens were the creators; genetically messing with life forms until they created us. Could be that it was not the aliens, but God, or with the help of angels that this abrupt transition occurred. Also, as far as the age of the earth is concerned. I see no reason, as others have, to argue that this is not true based upon what is written in the Bible. Interpretation, remember is faulty most times. Did you read the post on the pre-Adam civilization? What do you think of that "out of the box" interpretation? Who knows how many times this earth has gone through these spiritual evolutions? My question to you is this...do we really NEED to know? How is this important in the day to day lives that we lead? Anyway, for the sake of arguement, I believe that it is not evolution vs. creation, but creation, followed by evolution.
 
Lori:

I think we all know that you are not one of those Bible literalists. Although you still have your moments of relapse. For example, I've read in your very own posts statements to the effect that "we've all agreed that evolution is out", or something like that. So don't try to dodge the issue.

And, the Bible does tell us exactly how we were created. Out of mud, I think. And you'd really have to stretch your imagination to see that 6,000 years in anscient Jewish calendar really meant 4.5 billion years. Besides, even that's way off, since the universe as a whole has been around for at least 12 billion years. On the cosmic scene, we are mere newborns! By the way, that's *my* argument for extraterrestrials -- some planetary systems have been in existence when the Earth was still a cloud of gas. There are probably civilizations out there not just thousands, but billions of years ahead of us.

As for apes and dolphins. It's only the chimps that are so close to us. The other apes have bigger differences from us. And dolphins are even more different. And I'd hope you don't even need to know the actual match percentages; you can guess the similarity by just taking a look at the animal!

Given evolution, creationism simply has no niche left to inhabit. Yes, you can claim that maybe some outside intelligence tinkered with the evolutionary process. But the thing is, there is no evidence to support such a hypothesis. In fact, that would be another example of what I'd call "reaching". And in fact, as I have mentioned before, there is actual evidence for *lack* of intelligent design.

On the "need to know". Maybe you don't need to know, but I certainly do! I think the origins of life and the universe are among the most important questions we could ever ponder. So I'd certainly suggest that we NEED to know!!!

Oh, and one more thing I forgot to mention in my original post. There's lots of talk about how the Bible has been translated, and re-edited, and corrupted in the process. Well, the particular portion of the Bible we are concerned with -- the Old Testament -- comes straight from the Torah (the Jewish holy book). As far as I am aware, the Torah has never been re-edited or translated; it has allways been passed down in its original language and form. So, any arguments concerning the metaphorical nature of creationism are bogus. At the very least, the exact story conveyed is of no less fidelity than the 10 commandments. If you believe the commandments could have been passed down faithfully, then you must admit that the story of creation is also here in equally pure form. So when the Bible says the Universe and everything in it was created 6,000 years ago, that's exactly what is meant -- no way out of that.

As for the pre-Adam civilizations. LOL Do you even know how funny that sounds? Pre-Adam?!!! And silly me, I thought the Bible didn't tell you how everything was created. Come on already!

According to fossil record, Homo Sapiens Sapiens has been around for at least a few hundred thousand years. (150,000 years by even modest estimates). So you bet your behind there were civilizations before the Jews, and before the Egyptians, and before the Sumerians.

This, however, seems to be the first time our species has reached the levels of dominance and sophistication we witness today. Why do I think that? Well, we don't seem to be finding fossilized freeways and railroad tracks, or leftover space junk, or artificially terraced mountain sides, or evidence of anscient underground nuclear detonations. And, fossils seem to suggest that there has never before been so many humans on this planet (or we'd have many more remains and prehistoric burial sites all over the place). Finally, all evidence (including cave drawings, camp sites, tools, burial sites) seems to point to the fact that throughout early history until relatively recent times, humans were mired in the stone age.

So, these times are truly unique, and you all (not just Lori) should be grateful and excited to be alive. Humanity is taking steps on a road that no lifeform from Earth had ever trodden. The first baby steps toward the next great leap.

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited May 30, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited May 30, 1999).]
 
Let's take this discussion even a step further and look at it's own historical roots.
First of all I would like to point out that here in Europe the discussion has kind of ended in favor of the evolutionist. Since the pope agreed on the question that creation kind of took place in the big bang and science took over from there, almost all discussion has stopped, this because the Catholics are in majority here. During the nineteenth century all hard line Protestants kind of took off to the New World, taking their ideas with them. That is why this is mainly an American discussion. To tell you the truth, I was surprised this (ancient) discussion still stirred up so many emotions on the web.

Anyway modern bible critique tells us a lot about the origin of the bible texts themselves.
Take for example the creation story in the book of genesis. These are in fact two different stories intertwined. One, the oldest, is dated at around the time of the kings of Israel, 10th century BC. It was made as a kind of propaganda because the priests of Jaweh at the time saw a lot of their followers turning toward other gods of the Kanaïtes. For example the snake was a holy animal for the ancient peoples of Kana. This was because the snake sheds off his skin each year and therefore became a symbol for new life. By depicting the snake as the very animal who made Eve and Adam bite the apple, they tried to put the other religions in a bad position. It seemed they had success because archeological findings show that a lot of temples of the ancient gods where destroyed at that time.
The second story was made during the Babylonian exile, 6th century BC. Again a propaganda stunt for the one true god. At that time Judaism was developing in a true monotheistic religion. Up until that time Jaweh had been more like a tribal god who protected the tribe of Israel. The Babylonians had a very popular creation story at the time and in order to pose a counter balance the priests of Jaweh (I think it was Jeremiah at the time) put their own genesis story forward to give the Jews in exile some spiritual support. For example the Babylonians firmly believed that the stars where in fact gods and that in reading them one could predict the future. This is where our Zodiac signs come from and their astrological explanations. To proof that is wasn't so the Jewish priests stated explicitly that God MADE the stars and that they were merly lamps in the sky, no symbols for the future what so ever !
This last thing they weren’t able to wipe out because this believe has managed to live on till today if you look at the popular magazines but they did managed to unite the Jews again and when Nebucadnezar died and the Jews returned to their land they had streamlined their religion and began a theocracy up until the Alexander conquered them again and the Greeks showed them their was a bit more to life then living according to the thousand and one rules of their priests.
This of course triggered a new response of the zealots and messianism was born. At about the second century BC the Jews where beginning to believe someone, send by god was going to liberate them from the Greeks and their foul believes. This idea evolved and now and then a messiah arose (this is what the Dead Sea scrolls lead us to believe) after a century the Jews weren’t just awaiting an other prophet, send by god (like it had always been in the old testament) but the Son of God himself ! Meanwhile the Greeks had been changed by the Romans and these proved to be even worse leaders. Because August wanted to make his coup on the old republic legitimate, he traced back his lineage to Venus (the Aeneas) and made the emperor a kind of half-God. So everywhere in the vast Roman empire people had to recognize the emperor as a god. This posed no problem in almost all the occupied territories because one god more or less wasn't worth a discussion. For the Jews this was a whole other matter ! Suddenly they had to worship an other god than their Jaweh while he explicitly forbade them to do that, it was a mortal sin ! You can imagine the times were ripe for an other messiah to come. He came and preached his thing but because he kind of was making trouble against the Romans they put a stop to his preaching. That should have been the end of it but it wasn't, Paul, a guy who used to prosecute people who where against the rules of the emperor, became a follower of the new sect. He saw things really big and wanted to break out of the Jewish community with it. After some quarrels with the original apostles who wanted to hold the thing a Jewish only club, he sat of to distant cities in the Roman Empire to spread the word.
Still a lot of resistance was against this line of handling in the early Christian community and as a result of this originated the book of revelations. Here the Jewish fraction of the Christians depicted the Roman emperors as de beasts who rose from the sea to torment the people of god. The only true people who were saved were Jews, the 144000 came only from the 12 tribes of Israel, 12000 of each, everybody else was cast in to the flames of doom. The end was real near because the book talks about emperor Nero as being the last and must foul of the beast and the last battle directly after him. So according to the book of revelations the end of time would have come in the seventies of the first century AD. This kind of became a self forfilling prophecy because it was around that time that there was a final outburst of messianism in Israel and the Romans had to destroy Jerusalem and the temple. The Jews fled all over the Roman empire and this ended a very violent time in their history.
Messianism became a dormant form in as that the Jews settled with the idea that He would come at the end of times when everyone was going to be judged but the End of Time was way up in the Future. The non-Jew Christians however kept on spreading their believes until the empirial court itself became infested with it. This lead first to the freedom of religion for the Christians under Constantine in the beginning of the fourth century and later in that century to making it the official religion of the empire, abolishing all older forms of religion.
When this came about christianism needed some streamlining itself, structures where developed to guide and preserve the true faith. This was needed because as the new religion was gaining momentum, new interpretations of the Holy writings lead to new sects. Constantine wanted to use the new religion to unite his by that time already crumbling empire so he couldn't have deviations of that kind. So the concilies that followed put the right and only believe in indisputable dogma's that preserved the faith for the centuries to come.
A very effective way indeed because while the Roman empire itself collapsed, the religion withstood this new ordeal of God. The barbarian conquerors saw quite fast that in order to hold their kingdom together, it was best to cooperate with the bishops and priests of the Christians so they gave up their old believes and embraced the new faith, forcing their people to do the same.

I could go on but I think I'm kind of losing the track here. My point is that when one puts the stories of the bible in their historical context a whole new image emerges. The creation theories had their use but that is more then 2500 years ago. God didn't came down to earth to inspire the writers of the bible, they were products of their times as much as Marx was a product of the industrial revolution of the 19th century. There is no more point in clinging to them like there is in clinging to the old mechanics of Aristotle that objects tend to fall down if there is no force working on them.


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greetings,
Plato
 
"So when the Bible says the Universe and everything in it was created 6,000 years ago, that's exactly what is meant -- no way out of that."

Boris, could you give me the exact location in the Bible (Chapter and Verse) where the age of the Earth is given. Because I' ll make a sizable bet that it isn' t in there.
 
Oops :) I think you caught me there.

Actually I don't think I got it out of the Bible, somebody on the board must've quoted that number some time back. Sorry, brain-fart's on me.

But the point still stands though. So ok, substitute the "... was created 6,000 years ago" with "... was created over 7 days" and you'll see what I intended to say.

Again, sorry for that bit of misinformation. (Hmm, actually I may have gotten it from the Jews; it's the year 6000 something in their calendar, which presumably starts at the point when the world was created.) Anyway, you get the point, I hope...

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I am; therefore I think.
 
Brandon,

The 6000 years actually come from a calculation if one adds up all the lifetimes of the archfathers who have lived from Adam through Noah all the way up to Jesus. The bible if full of lists of these guys with how long they lived. The early one realy had long lifespans, the proverb 'old as Methusalem' finds his origan there, I think that guy in perticular walked around for 1000 years ! I don't know the precise calculation but I'm sure you will find it on other sites if you take your browser and search on 'Genesis Date' or something in that line.

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greetings,
Plato
 
What is to say there are no other concepts to our being or is it delusion?
Just because ideas do not fit into science they are ignored or laughed at, even so with religion. I believe, here, we are allowed free speech, so my opinion should not offend even though you may laugh, HO! HO!
We think therefore we should not be ignorant.
The evolution chain makes sense in so far as-where's the missing link? Bones have been dug up for years and everything has been found apart from the missing link. How unusual. Maybe it is because it does not exist. Then there is religion. Look at the first chapter. Adam and Eve, where they black, white, asian. Thewy surely could not have been all.
Erik Von Daniken gave forth ideas of alien intervention in the good book. Reports today would atleast give thoughts to this possibility. It is like the pyramids and how they were built- just makes you wonder.
In the beginning earth was created from dust and out of the dust came life. Millions of years later, alien intervention. The hybridisation of a race of people that could live upon this planet. Maybe we are ninety-eight percent ape, ever thought of it that way. We always compare ourselves with other things not the other way round. Then there is the question of genisis, influenced by one single creator or by an alien race?
Man asked the question of whence we came. Science was probably a bit tricky in those days and human perception a bit vague. Telling man he is an excellent work of biological experimentation would be a bit difficult to comprehend, so give him a simple story of creation, it is easier and the aliens remain in the shadows. No-one knows the true answer after all. No-one can prove or disprove any ones idea.
People believe in god, but where is he? I can not see him or here him.
Maybe the DNA string is the master and we but the host. When it has reached its final evolutionary stage it will discard the unwanted carcass.
Evolution and creation will still be argued even when we are long gone. Solid proof! There is non- not until the missing link is found or god shows his face. Why argue the toss now. Destiny is our judge and it will reveal the answers when it is good and ready. Just live out your life in peace and harmony and leave the dilemmas to another generation. All we need to remember is that we are all equal and should be treated equally.
Well I'm off back to the nuthouse so see ya later.
Your never alone with schizophrenia.
 
Both Evolution and Creation go hand in hand. It is really quite simple, something is created and from then on experiences evolution. Why is there so much debate over this issue?

If when you say creation you imply that all we see was simpily created by god and never changing, i'm sorry but you must have came down with a case of stupidness. Everyone can see the validness of evolution (and infact it should be fact not a theory!). But there does come a point when something has to be created (duh, when something is born..)

To me that is as far as we have to go when discussing this silly issue...



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We live, we die, WHO CARES!
-Double Overdrive



[This message has been edited by Double Overdrive (edited June 02, 1999).]
 
Mr. Overdrive,
What in the hell is your problem, man???
It seems that all you want to do is
come out fighting... if they choose to
discuss it futher..than they can. Who died
and made you boss of a topic being dead or
not... lighten up man.. life is too short.
 
Flash,
Maybe, in a sense, Overdrive is right and so are you.
Life is too short to worry about the dilemmas of mankind, even though, I must admit, I DO enjoy these debates.
There are people out there today who are looking for the answers-digging up fossils and scrutinizing the bible. Be patient, in time the answers will be revealed.
"Oh and don't forget the hybridisation theory," I said, shouting aloud.
BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


[This message has been edited by generalhurrss (edited June 03, 1999).]
 
Howdy Bev,
Ever thought of the evolutionary changes.
Ape to apeman is a serious leap. Where's all the minute genetic changes along the way. And the big question is if it is evolution why are apes here today.
Apeman was the first hybrid placed upon the earth after aliens dicovered they could create an intelligent species from the ape.
That is why apes are still with us. They did not phase out through evolution because there was no evolution for their species. Apeman phased out because he did not come up to alien interventions expectations, so they tried again with the next hybrid race and so forth, phasing each species out until we became.
Prove/disprove.

Anyone here have the genetic code for an alien?
 
Aliens=Angels. Divine intervention, right? General, who created the aliens? By the way, is this another "quiz"? Do you have the alien genetic code by chance?

Boris, I did not mean that evolution doesn't exist, just that Darwin's theory is not valid in it's entirety. There's something "missing".

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God loves you and so do I!
 
It is nice to know that someone loves us.
The genetic code, hmmmmmm, let me see, nope I ain't got it.
Next dilemma, who created the aliens. This will never end.
Okay god, time to show yourself.
Maybe evolution created aliens, but it took a billion years for their change to be as they are now and here, on earth, they toyed and sped up the process of evolution for future colonization of other worlds.
Time will reveal all, whether it is revealed from the earth, from the scriptures or from the stars.
Patience is a virtue, not learnt in schools.
 
For hybridization, missing link, and impossibility of change arguments, see my original post; I think I already covered all that.

As for incompleteness of evolution: I for one am totally sure it is incomplete. But not in the sense that it's missing something major; the devil is always in details. So, we have various variants, such as punctuated equilibrium and alien intervention. Some of these variants are more speculative than others, and as usual with the scientific process, most if not all of the variants will not make it.

As for why the apeman is nowhere to be found -- there many more (reasonable) possibilities other than alien meddling. For one, the 'missing link' might have been bred out by the modern humans -- so if you're looking for a living specimen, you've got over 5 billion right in front of you. Another possibility is that the apeman was exterminated by the modern humans -- similar to what happened to mammoths. You know, 'the evil demons of the woods' or some such thing.

The whole point is, evolution does make sense on its own. And the only reason to add things like aliens or God to it would be if it didn't make sense.

As for Lori:

Well, I'm glad you see the light :) However, in light of your admission you must also concede that the Old Testament is pure bs. Given that, the Bible no longer gives you any foundation for discussion of aliens and their nature. (See, there's always an angle in these debates... ;))

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I am; therefore I think.
 
Boris, duh!!! The Old Testament is not BS!!! Everything you don't understand is not bs. And you know, the most rational arguement for not being able to find a missing link, is that THERE IS NONE! How about that? We didn't evolve from an ape! What, don't tell me that you "believe" the religion of Darwin, do you? Do you guys have a church and everything? Oh, no, just a science lab and extremely limited vision.
 
Lori:

I would agree that your explanation for the 'missing' status of the missing link is the most reasonable one, if not for just this one thing:

It is only a tiny piece of a huge puzzle that is evolution. Although the puzzle is missing pieces, the overall pattern shows through quite clearly. Your suggestion is that because of the few missing pieces we ignore the obvious pattern staring at us and adopt a whole other interpretation. Based on what? That those pieces are missing?! If you saw a war veteran without a leg, would you assume he never had one? Or, would it not be more reasonable to assume that he did have one, but lost it somewhere along the line?

It's not a matter of 'belief' or 'religion'. It's a matter of analyzing noisy data (duh!!!) and coming to the most statistically justified conclusion.

So far, the evidence for our evolutionary origins has been increasingly overwhelming, and the absense of a fossilized apeman is not nearly such a serious breach as you make it out to be. It is only a geological accident, which, by the way, could be rectified any day by a surprise find!

As for the Old Testament and BS: the story of creation is BS. It just is, Lori. It contradicts with everything we know. Accept that fact and move on.

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I am; therefore I think.
 
Just wanted to comment on the "who created the aliens" part of this.

Maybe they also dont know how they came about... just a thought..


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I doubt, then i might be
 
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