Extreme Atheism - leads to a Proxy God by default.

[Quantum Quack]

Search engine Key words: mind control, prophecy, Astrology, Clairvoyance, Religious Eschatology, Mental health, Persecution complex, Determinism, Atheism

This thread was inspired by a comment made by a fellow member of sciforums. Other members also have by holding Determinist beliefs have indicated similar positions which can be summed up by:

the quote: Poster details available upon request.

"Belief in gods is a commonly held position by most humans, but such beliefs, just like your (the) notion of self determinism, aren’t rational or consistent with scientific understanding."

Pretty straight forward ....yes?

The consequence is that the Determinist believes that humans have no genuine freewill and it is just and illusion to believe we do.

That of all choices we have to choose from only one is predetermined by the universe to be taken and that we are completely under the control of such a deterministic universe.

Thus placing the universe in a position of Godly power over humanity.


Essentially this means that when taking Atheism to the extreme using Determinism to justify such extreme, one can only conclude that the universe is in control and not individual humans.

This begs the question:

Do extreme atheists believe in a God?

Care to discuss?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

I dont know any atheists who accept determinism as fact... do you accept God as fact.???

 

[Quantum Quack]

I dont know any atheists who accept determinism as fact... do you accept God as fact.???

Care to elaborate?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Interesting read.
Fatalism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism

The view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do.[1] Included in this is that humans have no power to influence the future, or indeed, their own actions.[2] This belief is very similar to predeterminism.​

Predeterminism:

Predeterminism is closely related to determinism.[3] The concept of predeterminism is often argued by invoking causal determinism, implying that there is an unbroken chain of prior occurrences stretching back to infinity. In the case of predeterminism, this chain of events has been pre-established, and human actions cannot interfere with the outcomes of this pre-established chain. Predeterminism can be used to mean such pre-established causal determinism, in which case it is categorised as a specific type of determinism.[1][4] It can also be used interchangeably with causal determinism—in the context of its capacity to determine future events.[1][5] Despite this, predeterminism is often considered as independent of causal determinism.[6][7] The term predeterminism is also frequently used in the context of biology and hereditary, in which case it represents a form of biological determinism.[8]​

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predeterminism

 

[Write4U]

Do extreme atheists believe in a God?

Care to discuss?

Determinism can be explained, defined, and proved mathematically. God cannot be explained or defined by any form of logic. It rests on pure unprovable mystical assumptions.

To equate God with determinism is an illogical exercise.

It it not even comparing apples and oranges, they are both fruits.
It's comparing apples with flying spaghetti monsters and we know how apples grow.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Determinism can be explained, defined, and proved mathematically. God cannot be explained or defined by any form of logic. It rests on pure unprovable mystical assumptions.

To equate God with determinism is an illogical exercise.

It it not even comparing apples and oranges, they are both fruits.
It's comparing apples with flying spaghetti monsters and we know how apples grow.

How would you describe a Universe that has complete control over your thoughts and choices using an unexplained method. ( the USA military would love to know)
Then consider the entire 8 billion or so humans on this planet in the question?

What do YOU end up with? ( apart from flying spaghetti monsters)

 

[Quantum Quack]

According to a Determinist (Fatalist) what is responsible for all of human suffering?

 

[Baldeee]

Determinism can be explained, defined, and proved mathematically. God cannot be explained or defined by any form of logic. It rests on pure unprovable mystical assumptions.

To equate God with determinism is an illogical exercise.

It it not even comparing apples and oranges, they are both fruits.
It's comparing apples with flying spaghetti monsters and we know how apples grow.

Questions:
What is an "extreme atheist"?
How is one defining "God"?
Does determinism answer the question of how the universe arose (the normal remit of God)?

If the answer to the last is "no" then determinism is simply the obeying of natural deterministic laws.
If one wants to define God simply as the natural laws then the argument is question begging and insincere.
Otherwise God (creator of universe, for example) is an entirely separate matter.
I can't see any genuine question in the title that is not borne from ignorance and a desire to flame.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Care to discuss?

humans have a need to forget the past to enable them to climb for better things in the future.
that is the premise of continuity of society.
philosophically the aspect is hindered by aspects of revisionism by way of litigious compliance to perceived loss.

ironically the loss is an aspect of the now as moral culture dictates the level of superiority.
this in turn defines a sense of inequality by virtue of modus operandi normative moral companion.

determinist fatalism is the essence of repatriation of past events in to a current model of cultural normative morality.

that is my current not too deeply thought out opinion on the subject.

additionally, the aspect of divinity in sense to the other aspect of self.... god and godly concepts
innate compartmentalism of subjective narrative lends to a goal of attaining moralistic pre determinism

as easily as we separate ego from ID do we separate god from human thought(the essence of thought contains the aspect of other by general perceived default[?])

 

[James R]

Quantum Quack:

The consequence is that the Determinist believes that humans have no genuine freewill and it is just and illusion to believe we do.

Some determinists believe that; others do not. There are a couple of threads on Free Will currently running where the matter is being debated. My own position is that free will is compatible with determinism, for example.

That of all choices we have to choose from only one is predetermined by the universe to be taken and that we are completely under the control of such a deterministic universe.

Predetermined by the universe? Is that just a fancy way of saying that the universe is deterministic, or are you trying to incorporate the idea of a Master Plan for the universe itself on the part of some kind of Creator god who starts the machine running and then does not interfere after that? That is essentially a deist position, not an atheist one.

Thus placing the universe in a position of Godly power over humanity.

Maybe you're saying the universe is God. If so, then you're talking about pan-theism. That kind of God is implicit in everything, which is quite different from the theistic conception of God as a separate being exerting "power" over other things (such as humanity).

Essentially this means that when taking Atheism to the extreme using Determinism to justify such extreme, one can only conclude that the universe is in control and not individual humans.

I disagree, for the same reasons that I have disagreed in the Free Will discussions that determinism necessarily means that humans are not in control of their own choices. As far as I can tell, when I choose some things, nothing stops me from freely choosing them. That means I'm in control, not something else. Or else it means that I'm in control together with something else that doesn't take issue with my choices.

Do extreme atheists believe in a God?

What's an extreme atheist?

Regardless, the answer would appear to be an obvious "no", since an atheist of whatever type is somebody who does not believe in God, by definition.

 

[Quantum Quack]

What is an "extreme atheist"?

Good question.
How I would define it is thus:
Atheistic extremism is a belief system that requires a person to evangelize deterministic fatalism. Claiming the belief to be about natural law and that there is no alternative to that belief.
That those who believe in self determination are deluded or inclined towards theism.
Those that abhor any belief in anything associated with theism.
Those that are proactive in attacking verbally or in print any one with religious thoughts or sentiment.
Sound familiar?

How would you define extreme atheism?

How is one defining "God"?

a proxy God by default of the consequences of deterministic fatalism.

Does determinism answer the question of how the universe arose (the normal remit of God)?

Not that I am aware of...
The normal remit of God would normally suggest a creator God.
Hindu's have many Gods but only one creator God (Brahma)
The ancient Greeks also had many Gods.

"of God like ability" to control the thoughts and choices of man...

Thus placing the universe in a position of Godly power over humanity.

Godly was the word I actually used but God like would be probably better.

Why do you think I was referring to a creator God?

 

[Capracus]

How would you describe a Universe that has complete control over your thoughts and choices using an unexplained method.

The Universe has no more control of you and your thoughts than it does over it’s own behavior. While the universe could be a conscious entity like ourselves or an imagined deity, there’s no reason to assume that it is, but there is reason to assume that it is subject to the same demonstrable determinism as the elements that comprise it. So it’s not the universe or some infinite entity that dictates motivation, but the universal process of deterministic interaction.

 

[James R]

How would you define extreme atheism?

 

[Dywyddyr]

Good question.
How I would define it is thus:
Atheistic extremism is a belief system that requires a person to evangelize deterministic fatalism. Claiming the belief to be about natural law and that there is no alternative to that belief.

I wonder why you feel free to make up your own definitions.
Deterministic fatalism (evangelised or not) isn't a particular feature of atheism (extreme or not).

That those who believe in self determination are deluded or inclined towards theism.

And yet isn't "free will" god-given (at least according to Christians)?

How would you define extreme atheism?

Being extremely atheistic - e.g. certain that there's no "god".

a proxy God by default of the consequences of deterministic fatalism.

Not. Even. Close.
Unless you also want to redefine "god".

 

[Quantum Quack]

Predetermined by the universe? Is that just a fancy way of saying that the universe is deterministic, or are you trying to incorporate the idea of a Master Plan for the universe itself on the part of some kind of Creator god who starts the machine running and then does not interfere after that? That is essentially a deist position, not an atheist one.

No that is what the determinists refer to as predetermination.
See my post #4 for more detail.
What does a God by proxy or a proxy God mean to you?
I believe that determinist, especially of the fatalist variety believe in a universe that has total control over human thought and choices. They state this clearly when they state that free will or self determination is an illusion. I refer you to the OP

"Belief in gods is a commonly held position by most humans, but such beliefs, just like your (the) notion of self determinism, aren’t rational or consistent with scientific understanding."

which was posted to another thread by another poster...Do you want the post number?

Maybe you're saying the universe is God

No James that is the Determinists (Fatalist's) position....
The OP is quite clear about that.

I disagree, for the same reasons that I have disagreed in the Free Will discussions that determinism necessarily means that humans are not in control of their own choices. As far as I can tell, when I choose some things, nothing stops me from freely choosing them. That means I'm in control, not something else. Or else it means that I'm in control together with something else that doesn't take issue with my choices.

yes, I have similar beliefs to you...
It is the fatalist or extreme atheist that believes that freewill is impossible.

Regardless, the answer would appear to be an obvious "no", since an atheist of whatever type is somebody who does not believe in God, by definition.

until they take it to the extreme and forbid self determination and place the responsibility of such upon the universe.

The controversial aspect of the OP is only the sheer irony that a fatalist is actually believing in a God like universe that has absolute control over human thought and choices, A proxy God that absolves humanity of responsibility for his entire existence.

 

[James R]

And yet isn't "free will" god-given (at least according to Christians?

It's often used as a "solution" to the problem of evil. God allows evil because he allows human beings free will, and we choose evil. Or so the argument goes. The Original Sin argument is the same. Humans ate the fruit of knowledge, thus achieving free will and bringing evil into the world.

So yes, the theists (as least the Abrahamic ones) are quite keen on self-determination (free will).

 

[Quantum Quack]

View attachment 2523

lol

 

[Quantum Quack]

It's often used as a "solution" to the problem of evil. God allows evil because he allows human beings free will, and we choose evil. Or so the argument goes. The Original Sin argument is the same. Humans ate the fruit of knowledge, thus achieving free will and bringing evil into the world.

So yes, the theists (as least the Abrahamic ones) are quite keen on self-determination (free will).

other wise referred to as GRACE I think...

 

[Quantum Quack]

The Universe has no more control of you and your thoughts than it does over it’s own behavior. While the universe could be a conscious entity like ourselves or an imagined deity, there’s no reason to assume that it is, but there is reason to assume that it is subject to the same demonstrable determinism as the elements that comprise it. So it’s not the universe or some infinite entity that dictates motivation, but the universal process of deterministic interaction.

so are you saying humans have free-will and self determination or not?

Cap's you can't have it both ways, either humans have freedom to choose or they don't.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I wonder why you feel free to make up your own definitions.
Deterministic fatalism (evangelised or not) isn't a particular feature of atheism (extreme or not).


And yet isn't "free will" god-given (at least according to Christians)?


Being extremely atheistic - e.g. certain that there's no "god".


Not. Even. Close.
Unless you also want to redefine "god".

"a proxy God...by default", means what to you?

Do you believe in predetermination?