Does wanting it make you deserving of it? Will it work for money? A good job? Beside the point. You claimed they weren't beliefs, and still have to show why they aren't. On the contrary, you made the claim that it's deserved. And haven't shown why. We should just take your word? How can you love someone you know nothing about? You can't love them as a person if you don't know. Therefore whatever love/ respect they get is nothing to do with that person as a person. In fact claiming to love and respect someone you have never met and know next to nothing about is verging on insulting. You made an assumption and acted on it (by making the statements you did). That's a judgement, as shown in my quote. So a pre-judgement isn't in any way, at all, a form of judgement? Where your assumptions are wrong? Okay: "but you really should try to see things from more then just one limitting perception." You take it my perspective/ perception is limited. "After at least attempting to see both sides of the arguement," You assumed I haven't attempted to see both sides (and in fact have judged that I haven't seen). "then you could offer much more valuable feedback to keep a intelligent conversation going." You've judged my feedback as having little value, and the ensuing exchange to be verging on unintelligent. "I don't know if you just like stirring things up online, or if you really think this way all the time" You've assumed that I'm doing this to stir things up, or that I somehow have limited understanding (a failure to look at it from my perspective). "but you seem to have tunnel vision." You've taken it as tunnel vision - another failure to look at it from my perspective. In other words you've made an assumption that your POV is correct and judged that my posts are a display of flawed thinking/ limited understanding or deliberate baiting. Wrong.
I'll take a quote from the Rolling Stones and say, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try real hard, you might find, we get what we need." We all need Love and Respect. Don't get me started on money. If we all got the resources we need, money would be obsolete. What's a good job? As long as you're happy, any position can be good. My perception of what qualifies as a belief is different than others. To me a belief is more like faith in something and the actual belief never disrespects or puts conditions on love, but our percpective of our beliefs can sometimes be disrespectful. The things you pointed out would be percptions based on some sort of belief. ie: Hitler believed his nation deserved to have the world, his perception of his belief caused him to do horrific things to those that were not a part of his nation in his eyes. But again this really doesn't change the arguement. So I don't know why it matters so much, we just have different opinions on what some words mean. You don't have to take my word for it, do you think this is my original idea? Love and Respect have been extremely important to almost all spiritual beliefs ever believed! The why part is something you will eventually figure out for yourself. You should never be insulted by Love! How can I love someone or something without understanding it all, because I love all of life. The more I do know, the more I can relate, but I can still love without any knowledge. When I love all of life, I don't have to love the things people do, so I don't love people based on what they have accomplished, but rather I love everything regardless. I made an assumption, but I'm always willing to learn. I posted my interpretations to see if I was correct or if I was way off, not because I was playing the role of judge. No not really. Pre-judgement is aware that there is a lack of knowledge and evidence, but still tries to make the most logical assumptions based on the knowledge we do have. Pre-judgement is always willing to change with new knowledge where as judgement thinks it already has enough information to make an extreme descision. But since my assumptions never are about being right or wrong, it is only about getting a better understanding, I would not consider myself to be pre-judgemental neither, but using your deffinition, if you think I judge, then it would be much closer to pre-judging then judging, and just be aware that I am not about right and wrong. I'm about balance and comfort. I believe we could both learn alot from eachother if we actually focussed on the important parts of our debates rather then worrying about the wording and stepping on eachothers toes. Unless you are somehow capable of seeing everyones perceptions, which I doubt any of us can completely do, then your perceptions are limitted, as are all our perceptions. We all see the world differently. Nobodies views are right or wrong, they are just different. I find from my own experiences with you on this forum, that you like to make sarcastic remarks, and you point out extremes, but I have never seen you try to understand others that don't agree with you. I am trying to stand in your shoes, and because I am trying to stand in the shoes of a stranger, I have to make assumptions, unless the stranger gives my insight into their life. So explain to me how your perceptions aren't limitted. No I didn't judge, but based on your comments I made an assumption. If you have looked at both sides of the arguement, you must of kept one side all to yourself, because your posted arguments are all one sided. I just don't like continually going in circles with you. We could both learn from eachother, but I don't learn anything from sarcasim or from belittling others. I pointed out your feedback would be appreciated more if you weighed both sides of the pros and cons. You may assume the 'unintelligent' part all you want, but I want the conversation to stay intelligent, and right now it isn't accomplishing that cause I'm still trying to explain when it is painfully obvious you aren't listening. Your 2 cents would be much more valuable if I knew you were listening, then the conversation could go both ways. Unfortunetly, right now it's like we are both talking to walls, not to eachother. I've tried to make enough assumptions so that I can see your perspective, but I honsestly don't know enough about you other then what you post in these forums. It's the sarcasim and belittling that I don't know if you do on purpose, or if it just comes out that way cause you like to feel like you have knowledge. I'm always looking for knowledge, but I have trouble recieving any information when it comes in the form of sarcasim. But if you think your way is the only way, then that is tunnel vision. You have not said anything to make me assume anything different. How am I supose to look at it from your perspective when you don't let me in, and you assume I'm judging when I make assumptions? I am trying to see things from your perception, but when I try, I find myself in a tunnel, or perhaps a hallway if that's better for you Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!. Me, I'm in a field without walls or boundaries. I know nothing about right and wrong. I don't believe in such things. My point of view is excactly that, my point of view. Their are some things I know, but many other things I am still trying to learn. I make assumptions based on your posts, I don't judge, and if you wanted me to assume different, then all you need to do is post something that gives me reason to believe differently. You seem take all critisim to heart, or at least you reply like it was offensive (constructive critisim is something I value). You use sarcasim and extreme situations to try to justify an opinion without looking at both sides of the debate, or at least without pointing out both sides. When I point out such things, you claim I'm judging you, but you still give nothing to contradict my assumptions other then finger pointing, and saying I'm wrong. If you want me to understand your perceptions better, then you need to be more informative, and less sarcastic. You also need to look at more then just the extreme conditions when trying to justify a point, cause extreme conditions can sometimes change peoples perceptions, and if all you look at is the extreme conditions, then you are not getting a good outlook on all the conditions. However, I'm under the impression, that you don't want to share information, you just like to rant. I hope I'm wrong with that assuption, but that is the impression you leave me with. I gotta go make super, talk to you later Dyw. And despite our many differences of opinion, and whether it means nothing to you or not, I still love and respect you bud.
But again, needing isn't the same as deserving. Hmm and nothing on my previous list can be an article of faith? And it's not possible to simply believe that certain groups aren't worthy? It matters because your personal definition of belief automatically excludes the list above - you're defining your terms to confirm your personal "prejudices". Um, okay. And have any of them explained why? Another assumption. Why not? If someone who doesn't know anything at all about me claims to love me how can it be love that means anything? It's not a love of me as myself, it's a generalised all-encompassing cop-out. Refer back to my movie references. If someone loves ALL movies then how reliable is a review by them on any particular one? So it's virtually meaningless. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/love Nothing personal in it, just a vague "I love everyone, equally". The judgement followed the assumption... And still comes up with a judgement as to motive/ reason or whatever. Er, pre-judgement also thinks there's enough information, otherwise there'd be no decision until more information arrives... Ah now you're quibbling about words again. Of course we all have limited perceptions, however the implication was that my perceptions were so limited that I couldn't see both sides of the argument. I'd dispute that. Certain views are most definitely wrong. Others are equally definitely right. A wonderful example of your own limited perceptions if I may say so. As opposed to say "everyone deserves respect" being a multi-sided statement? You gave a (fairly fixed) position, I'm querying it. By giving examples where it could fail. (Or finding out WHY it doesn't). Once again, where are the pros and cons in your initial contention? If you don't do it why should I? So you assume I'm not listening? One more time: You have no idea what "my way" is, or whether or not I consider it the only way. Because you're stuck with your assumptions and pre-judgement? Ah, more assumptions. You think I'm not "in a field without boundaries"? You think I'm "in a tunnel". For your information I understand very well where you're coming from, but you seem to think I don't. Misperception on your part. Where, in your original assertion did YOU not avoid extremes? "We should respect each other" Not "maybe we should try to respect most people" or similar. Both sides? So why didn't you say "possibly it's worth trying" or whatever? Already addressed the question of extremes. You are wrong. Hopelessly and dreadfully. For reference try this.
Just ate, but I'm not on much longer tonight. Socratic method, nice. I watch House, that's where I first heard of it! These Posts are getting a bit long to keep saying the same stuff though so I'll try to cover most of it without yours quoted. Both sides to Love and Respect? What do you want me to tell you, love can cause pain, cause that's not a good enough reason to not love. I don't understand any stance that would be against Love and Respect, so please enlighten me on why we should not? All these why's, but why not? No I don't think it is worthy by my definition to just believe certain groups aren't worthy. Their are many Beliefs that might lead to that misguided perception, but the belief would be in something, not against something. You say nothing personal, but thats because I left the personal out. We all have loves and sorrows in our personal lives, and they are all different for each of us. It's the free love that connects me to everything else. But just because my Love is free, does not make it any less meaningful. I have plenty of passion, but my passion is for life in general. Their are individuals that have touched my individual life more, and their are many different forms of Love for each and every one, but I can still Love the rest freely with passion and meaning. Movies, lol. And someone that loves all movies would probably be able to give a pretty good detailed review of any movie they critiqued, to be quite honest. And what action other then making more assumptions have I taken? My assumptions haven't made any descisions. I don't know you, and you make it tough to try, but I do like the Socratic method link Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!. No judgement no matter what I think of my own assumptions you would still deserve Love and Respect just like everyone else. When a picture is Black and White, I see infinite shades of Grey. So I'll take my multi-sided statement 'as opposed to' the one-side approach anyday, thanks for the extreme compliment with that. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! When you Believe IN something, their isn't any right and wrong. However now that I think about the actual views, I'll agree that my perception of views and actions do have right and wrong, I said that bit a little off, so I'll give you that one back. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Agreed. But that sort of love is specific and individual, no? Is "Why not?" a good enough reason to do something? Especially an "all-encompassing everyone should do it" reason? Yep: the belief (in that case) would be my group is superior to all the others. I have to disagree on that. If it isn't personal then it doesn't mean a great deal. Love should be special, should make you feel special. If you love everyone how is that special? But if they loved ALL equally is their opinion on any particular one going to be an indicator of the quality of the movie? You posted the result of those assumptions: made a judgement f my character/ intelligence/ knowledge/ whatever. But the statement wasn't multi-sided: everyone should love/ respect everyone else. That's extreme. Is there not? See my previous example, for example... Thanks. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Not? So you're in pain because of what everyone does? Doesn't it cancel out from the good things that everyone does?
It can be, it doesn't have to be. I shed a tear when Nada was shot in the streets of Iran. I know many that cry at movies. Love and pain can be experienced in many many ways. Not just individual. Dude, you do realize you're asking why I should Love and Respect, and then using this cop out about why not as a reason? Again if you can't understand why, I don't know how to explain it, but even you gotta know, your replies are not getting to any answers - Do you like walking in circles? So the perception is to do something about it, but the belief would still be in something. Now when you start grouping things in a belief, part of the misperceptions is what is included in the grouping too, the belief still comes from a belief in something, but our own understanding can change with knowledge and awareness. Because I already know we are all conected, I know the groupings people misuse, are not real. We are all a part of the same group. Their are many different forms of love. If you don't think free love is special, then you do not understand free love. First of all, it wouldn't be about how much each is loved, it would be about why. The critique would show the pros and the cons, and then you could judge for yourself which has the kind of things you look for in a movie. But why are we still talking movies? Not a good comparison to love anyway! LOL - I have made assumptions, I do not judge. You say you don't take things to heart, yet you keep claiming that I'm judging you, and by the way you bring it up, it sounds like I may of hurt your feelings. Dude, I'm sorry if I somehow offended you, but I honestly just make assumptions based on what I know, and all I have to base things from you is sarcasim and walking in circles, but you never really give good reasons for anything you say, and yet you expect detailed reasons for everything. Everyone loving and respecting everyone is not what I'd call extreme. I'd call it Free Unity, as opposed to the Controlled Chaos we currently live.
Circles? Nah. I'm trying to find out YOUR reasoning for the assertion. Um, depends what you mean by "connected". If it covers everyone how can it be special? By definition? Ah, so you love each separate person for different reasons? Not offended AT ALL, honest. But I am a stickler for accuracy. Detailed reason? Sure. If there's no reason, no valid reason, then why do something? BTW I haven't particularly used sarcasm in this thread. Not extreme? EVERYONE to love EVERYONE else? Loving 6 billion people isn't, er, slightly over the top?
That actually concerns me a little Lori, but if you can feel the pain, I'd most certainly assume you can feel the love too. The way you answered it almost sounded like you only saw the bad, when I know you see good too! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I do feel good when I see good things getting done! Just like the sorrows in the world can bring sadness, the joys of the world can bring happiness.
Do you really need a good reason to Love and Respect? If so, can you not think of one for you? I don't need a reason to Love and Respect, I just do. Number one, just because I Love everything, doesn't mean I don't know other forms of Love as well. Number 2, it is special to you to have such feelings for everything, it is very special and comes with a heightened awareness. Lol, I told you from the get go the movie comparison was weak. As for different reasons, I love those I know from my personal life for many different reasons, but their are many I don't know that I love freely. If I get a chance to connect with anyone, I might have a reason for the love if I want one, but I don't need reasons to love. I have enough love to share that I don't put conditions on mine. Again, do you honestly need a valid reason why to Love and Respect? If so, can you not find your own reasons? I can't think of any good reason why not to Love and respect. I don't need a reason for such a thing, that I really can't explain it to you. It's obvious to me. And as I said, we already live in Controlled Chaos, I think it's time for some Free Unity - I see it as change, not extreme. See both the Controlled Chaos and the Free Unity have 2 sides that balance eachother. Complete freedom would include chaos, just as complete unity would include control. I'm ready for a new approach, but not one of the extremes (freedom/chaos or control/unity) a little of both sides still.
i'm sorry...i thought he said "cancel out the good things everyone does". my bad. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! no, it does not cancel out the good things everyone does. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
That's what I needed, saved from myself Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!. And Dyw, I use to be a judgemental person in all my views. Perhaps that is why some of my assumptions get mispercieved that way, because I really don't judge anyone anymore, but I do try to understand, so I have to make assumptions to fill in for the many gaps where I am missing the knowledge. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Perhaps that is part of the reason why forgiveness is so important, to forgive those that have harmed us and forgive ourselves, I mean I guess we wouldn't need to forgive anyone but ourselves if we truely didn't judge, but by forgiving others, it almost acts as a cop out to forgive ourselves for judging them Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!. I don't know though, just something I thought up. I am learning as I go, I don't ask why as often as you, so I don't have all your answers. My whys are more at things like: Why can't we get along? Why does money still control so much now that enough resources can be provided to everyone if everyone new how to share? Why is their poverty/homelessness/famine/disease (curable diseases)/etc...? Why war? Why so much disrespect, hate, fear, greed, etc...? Why can't we change?
