Gender identity: Crazy/delusional?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Dinosaur, Feb 27, 2017.

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  1. Capracus Registered Senior Member

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    Why should coercion be necessary to recognize the obvious? These individuals have chosen to conduct themselves in a way that poses no threat to others in society, and any risk to themselves is proportional to the personal risk assumed by others already in good social standing. Is asking certain factions of society to exercise common sense a violation their rights?

    All the more reason to support strategies to remedy their torment. This includes tolerance of their nonconformity by those who haven’t yet learned to rationally accept it.

    I would say that when a person possesses a requisite proportion of a given gender’s anatomic function, they could be considered biologically that gender as well. For example if a trans woman were surgically given genetically compatible and functional reproductive organs, and breast tissue, the resulting hormonal conditioning and reproductive functionality would biologically define that human being as a woman. This procedure would depend on future advances in organ generation, which is not a product of my wishful thinking, but a serious goal in current medical research. You don’t have hope that such medical advances will someday become a reality?

    https://cellregenerationjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2045-9769-2-1

    https://research-highlights.keio.ac.jp/article/31/lab-grown-uterus-could-reverse-infertility

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130326151131.htm

    Environmental conditioning is the basis for any evolutionary process, so what’s your point?
     
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  3. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    There's no objective test for autism either, does that mean it doesn't exist?
     
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  5. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Mosiacism and microchimerism do not alter DNA from XX to XY, or vice versa, nor gonadal sex.
    Dubious twins studies and trivial neuralplasticity results.
    Lots of anecdotal stories.
    Transgender brain similarities to their chosen sex is only ever similar, never identical, and easily accounted for by neuralplasticity.

    Apparently you missed the "conclusive studies" part of my question.

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  7. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Try reading that simple English again, deary. Why would your feelings matter, much less be hurt, in how others are identified? Seems you must be projecting, since you protest what hasn't even been implied.

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    Again, what objective biology, not already accounted for by neuralplasticity?
    Again, where did I claim pedophiles pretend to be transgender?

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    You really seem to like this straw man.
    You're obviously ignoring what I say so you can lump me in with "others who believe like you", whatever you imagine that to be.

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    Do you really not know how easy it is to go verify that almost everyone in this thread brought up bathrooms before I did? Are you really THAT deluded?

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    Those links don't say what you think they say, at least not with the certainty you seem to be portraying.
    Oh, I see. You were simple equivocating "children" so you could pretend that you somehow had results that eliminated time for neuralplasticity, and seemingly ignoring the last statement of your own source.
    "Expected" isn't a finding.

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    Do you ever speed? Jaywalk? Do all laws strictly restrain your behavior? No? You mean there's things you do when you don't think authorities are watching or anyone would notice? OMG, what a scandal?!

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    It was always a nonissue until they started demanding acceptance from others.
    WOW! So you really can't read simple English (or just blinding confirmation bias). I say that it being a choice is a straw man and you still insist that's my argument...even after I explicitly said it "is not a choice".
    I'm not whatever boogeyman you imagine you are debating.
    Again, who said either happen? And who said the predators were pedophiles?
    It's your straw man arguments doing the misrepresentation here...but projection.

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    I'm not a spokesman for all conservatives. If you've paid any attention at all, you'd know that many of my views don't align with them. So why should I defend their arguments? Should I equally expect you to defend violent riots regardless of your actual opinions?

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    The photo was taken as the Playmate was sitting inside the gym's sauna. The other woman in the locker room had no idea she was being photographed and that her naked body would be displayed on social media for all to see...
    Another posted: “Its people like you that make others uneasy about changing openly in locker rooms.”
    - http://www.insideedition.com/headli...ng-naked-woman-in-gym-locker-room-on-snapchat
    Maybe you're already " uneasy about changing openly in locker rooms" (prude?), and somehow desperately trying to make that an ad hominem.
    What's the difference between a transgender woman, with a penis and sexually attracted to women, and a straight man in your locker room?

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    You're either tone policing (trolling) or poisoning the well (ad hominem).
    No, that just demonstrates the strength genetic sex. Neuralplasticity does not guarantee the same experience will have the same result on every individual. Hell, even twin studies don't show a one for one concordance.
    You're still making claims you cannot support.

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  8. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Who ever said transgenders don't exist?
     
  9. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    It's called a dictionary.

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  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    If "neuralplasticity" (sic) accounts for the gender-specific structures of the brain, then your chromosome-based assignment of gender goes out the window.
     
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Yep - that's what it's called.
     
  12. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Apparently you missed the "sarcasm" part of my reply. Nobody really thinks you are discussing in good faith.

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  13. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    First, thanks for pointing out my misspelling. I do appreciate not being left to continue the mistake.
    Second, neuroplasticity accounts for the deviations from gender-specific brain structures, which is why gay/transgender brain structures never match those of heterosexuals, but only become similar. If neuroplasticity accounted for all gender-specific brain structures, we would expect to find zero difference between a woman and trans-woman's brain structures. But like all things gender nowadays, the left wants to ignore genetics in favor of "social constructs", which do not account for such brain differences either.
     
  14. Bells Staff Member

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    21,656
    "Deary"?

    How patronising, and, because it is so patronising and condescending, it becomes an insult. I'll put it this way, you keep calling me "deary", I'll just refer to you as twat. That sound okay to you?

    I'm pretty certain I said that my feelings don't matter. Oh, you meant the feelings of transgender? Their feelings do matter on this issue as they are the victims of conservative policies that deny them their fundamental human rights.

    Understand now?

    You have yet to prove that neural plasticity is the cause of biological changes in the brains of transgender children.

    Oh, I apologise, you did not. You just skirted the issue by going on about "potential predators", an argument conservatives use to comment about potential paedophiles.

    But let's look at your potential predator argument, shall we?

    Do you have proof that men pretending to be transgender for "predator" reasons in bathrooms, for example, is now so problematic that we must now legislate about which bathroom to use to such an extent?

    "

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    "??

    Well, I don't need to imagine, Syne. Your anti LGBT stance and your actions as a result of it is one of the primary reasons that saw you demoted on this site.

    Oh, you didn't bring it up. But you took it and ran with it. Repeatedly. I mean, you were the one who went on about "potential predators" in bathrooms, in response to someone asking if you'd be happy with a man sharing the same bathroom as your daughter, in regards to laws that now force transgender men to use women's bathrooms because they were born with female reproductive organs. I mean, this is where the whole paedophile thing comes from in this thread.

    Someone talks about the ridiculous laws that now force men to use the women's bathrooms because they demand that transgender men use women's bathrooms since they were born 'female' and whether you would be fine with a man sharing it with your daughter and your response is to go on about "potential predators"..

    Oh but they do. The science is there.

    For example:

    A variant genotype for a gene called CYP17, which acts on the sex hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, has been found to be linked to female-to-male transsexuality but not MtF transsexuality. Most notably, the FtM subjects not only had the variant genotype more frequently, but had an allele distribution equivalent to male controls, unlike the female controls. The paper concluded that the loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexuality.

    You can access the full text of the paper here.

    _________________________________

    A polymorphism of the CYP17 gene related to sex steroid metabolism is associated with female-to-male but not male-to-female transsexualism
    Bentz, Eva-Katrin et al (2008). Fertility and Sterility , Volume 90 , Issue 1 , 56 - 59. http://bit.ly/2nBkDUd
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    21,656
    Once again, the results speak for themselves. New imaging technology is expected to show from an even younger age.

    Neural plasticity in regards to transgender children would indicate that children are taught to be the opposite sex. That they are trained and raised, or as you put it, pandered to, to be the opposite sex. The opposite is actually the case. Gender identity has every indication of being set at birth. If we were to take your neural plasticity argument seriously, it would mean that environment could alter gender identity in children. Which means that XY babies, raised as girls, taught to identify as girls, would, through neural plasticity, become girls. They do not.

    A seminal study by Meyer-Bahlburg et al involving outcomes of XY individuals raised as females due to severe nonhormonal, anatomic abnormalities of sex development provided the most convincing evidence that gender identity is fixed.[2] These congenital abnormalities include penile agenesis, cloacal exstrophy, and penile ablation. For many years, female gender assignment along with surgical feminization was the dominant approach for these patients. In this study, 78% of all female-assigned 46 XY patients were living as females. While the majority of these patients did not initiate a gender change to male, none of the 15 male-raised 46 XY patients initiated a gender change to female. Thus, the risk of questioning gender identity was higher in those 46 XY subjects raised as females than in those raised as males. The same group examined the degree of satisfaction with surgical intervention reported by patients with 46 XY genotypes and found that those subjects raised as boys were considerably more comfortable with their gender identity.[3]

    Another seminal study relevant to this topic was by Reiner and Gearhart.[4] In their review of 16 XY genotype subjects with cloacal exstrophy who underwent female gender reassignment surgery, 4 of the 14 individuals raised as girls announced they were male, and 4 later chose to live as boys when they became aware of their genotype. The 2 individuals who were raised as males identified as males throughout life. The sexual behavior and attitudes of all 16 subjects ultimately reflected strong masculine characteristics regardless of gender assignment. Thus, children who were born genetically and hormonally male identified as males despite being raised as females and undergoing feminizing genitoplasty at birth. Although the cohort sizes in these studies were small, the data provide the strongest evidence for the biologic underpinnings of gender identity.

    No.
    No.
    I don't believe so.

    Is it the acceptance thing that bothers you, isn't it? That you believe you are being forced to accept transgender people? That they are given equal rights as a natural progression of "acceptance".. That's your real issue, isn't it?

    So when you argue about their "chosen gender", you aren't arguing that they are choosing to be transgender? You aren't arguing that they are somehow choosing which sex to be?

    Well, let's see. Billvon questions whether you would have an issue with a man sharing the same bathroom as your daughter, in an argument that centers around the fact that transgender men are legally forced to now use female bathrooms because they were born with female reproductive organs and their birth certificate said "female". Your response to my querying your comment about Billvon's question is to go on about "potential predators".

    What exactly did you mean by that response to Billvon's comments?

    But your argument mirrors that of conservatives on this issue.

    Are you now saying that conservatives are wrong to argue against allowing transgender using the bathroom they identify with and the arguments they put forth against it, such as "potential predators", which you ridiculously parroted in this thread?

    Considering your repeated ad hom attacks in this thread, don't you think it's a bit rich for you to accuse others of it when all I suggested was that you use doors in your change rooms like we have here in Australia?

    And our change rooms tend to have cubicles, same with our public showers and whatnot.

    And thirdly, your quoted link.. Is it a man who pretended to be transgender who took the photos and then, from the title of the article, fat shamed a porn star? I mean, was it a potential predator who did it? That's your argument about letting transgender using the bathrooms they identify with, so your quote makes no sense at all and has nothing really to do with the thread. What you are showing is that women pose a greater risk to other females in public change rooms than transgender women do...

    Ironic really.

    Well isn't that what you are doing? So far, in this post alone, you have accused me of being deluded, not being able to read, became patronising and condescending by calling me "deary".. And you think my observation about your "lol", and I might add, your repeated use of emoticons, is an ad hom attack?

    You're wrong.

    Provide something to support your argument and we might take you seriously. Otherwise, what's the point of your arguing or posting in this thread if you keep making claims you cannot even support? What's your role here, Syne?

    _________________________________
    Evidence Supporting the Biologic Nature of Gender Identity
    Aruna Saraswat, Jamie Weinand, and Joshua Safer (2015). Endocrine Practice: February 2015, Vol. 21, No. 2, pp. 199-204. http://wb.md/2mBTUoW
     
  16. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    1,547
    Everyone has an absolute right to their feelings, however misguided.
    Bigots can be as prejudiced, intolerant and closed-minded as they like, so long as they don't interfere with the rights of other people.
    So - Why is it this important to retain the right to exhibit bigotry?
    How can the entitlement to mislabel and insult total strangers be important enough to alienate - not to mention bore and annoy - an anonymous on-line community, and make a total ass of oneself?
    I just cannot fathom the motivation.
     
  17. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Tone policing again? Hey, I'm happy to refrain from things you find insulting (you feelings again...even if they are not inherently insulting), just so long as this doesn't become a standard ploy to troll. Sound okay to you, woman?

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    You said, "My feelings aren't hurt by transgender using bathrooms, Syne." If they don't matter, you bringing them up was just a non-sequitur nothing-burger.
    Humoring mental illness (gender dysphoria) is not a human right. Nor are these conservative policies. These are policies that have existed for a very long time...supported across the board.
    Since you don't seem to possess a rudimentary understanding of neuroplasticity:
    Facts About Neuroplasticity
    FACT 1: Neuroplasticity includes several different processes that take place throughout a lifetime.
    Neuroplasticity does not consist of a single type of morphological change, but rather includes several different processes that occur throughout an individual's lifetime. Many types of brain cells are involved in neuroplasticity, including neurons, glia, and vascular cells.
    FACT 2: Neuroplasticity has a clear age-dependent determinant.

    Although plasticity occurs over an individual's lifetime, different types of plasticity dominate during certain periods of one's life and are less prevalent during other periods.
    FACT 3
    : Neuroplasticity occurs in the brain under two primary conditions:

    1. During normal brain development when the immature brain first begins to process sensory information through adulthood (developmental plasticity and plasticity of learning and memory).

    2. As an adaptive mechanism to compensate for lost function and/or to maximize remaining functions in the event of brain injury.

    FACT 4
    : The environment plays a key role in influencing plasticity.

    In addition to genetic factors, the brain is shaped by the characteristics of a person's environment and by the actions of that same person.
    - https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/plast.html

    Enrichment studies have shown that a caring environment aids learning and development. But neuroplasticity also has a darker side. Impoverished environmental conditions, prenatal substance exposure, sensory deprivation, emotional trauma and nutritional deficiencies can cause plasticity to play its unkind hand, wreaking havoc on the developing young brain. Long-term chronic stress (“toxic stress”) provokes the release of high levels of the hormone cortisol that can lead to permanent damage to hippocampal neurons, causing learning difficulties and memory impairments. - http://brainworldmagazine.com/neuroplasticity/
    Man in Drag Caught in Macy's Women’s Restroom Secretly Taping Women

    Police: Man in bra and wig found in women's bathroom

    FAU police: Man caught videotaping women in bathroom

    Man caught filming women in pizza shop bathroom jumps out of ceiling: police

    Man who choked 8-year-old girl in women’s restroom stokes alarm over transgender access

    Or just Google "man caught in women's bathroom" to find countless more. Are you really so blissfully unaware of all this?

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    Sure, the bigotry of lumping everyone who disagrees with you into one monolithic group.

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    Really? Doubling down on it, even though you just admitted and apologized for that pedophile straw man?

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    My specific response to that point was that people will use the bathroom of the gender they pass as, regardless of actual sex or laws...just as they always have.

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    You wouldn't have new laws, with potentially steeper penalties, if they didn't demand to be overtly accepted by others, which only fascists could enforce.
    From that paper:
    The etiology [cause] of transsexualism is unknown, but it has been speculated that the influence of sex steroids on early brain development may play an important role. Transsexualism may also have a genetic component, based on rare reports of twin–twin concordance and families with several affected members.​
    You know, aside from the fact that this correlation only holding for female-to-male transgenders undermines it as a biological mechanism for transgenderism in general.

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  18. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Again, "expected" is not a finding.

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    Again, you're citing trying to change children from their biological (XY) sex, which only affirms the strength of genetic sex on gender. Neuroplasticity does not imply that the same experience will have the same effect on different individuals. Considering the rarity of transgenderism, we would assume that this particular neuroplasticity effect is a rare vulnerability.
    “Neuroplasticity is a double-edged sword,” Neville observed, referring to how experience-dependent changes in the structure and function of the brain can confer benefits but may also leave systems vulnerable. - http://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/brain-development-and-neuroplasticity#.WMzCpvmzta4
    No, its the actual repercussions of allowing predators the opportunities. The demand for acceptance would be ignorable if it lacked real world negative consequences.
    Yeah...I'm just not sure how else to say that. Their....gender identity? But straight people have their gender identities too. Misidentified gender? Dysphoric gender? Hell, I'm not even sure if transgender man means MtF or FtM. Are there crib notes for this crap?

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    My first actual response to that, once you had clarified the intended connection, was:
    If we didn't placate gender dysphoria, it wouldn't be an issue. Aside from that, if you can pass as your chosen gender, no one will think twice about you using your chosen bathroom. And if you can't pass as your chosen gender, it's only an issue if you are prone to flashing your junk around. But we can't simply let anyone use any bathroom solely on subjective self-reported gender without enabling potential predators to exploit it.​
    See where I talked about going to the bathroom of the gender the person passes as? This is my actual reaction.
    There's just no reason to codify supposed "trans-rights" into law, considering the risks I've already cited.
    And considering transgenders ostensibly seek to be accepted as their chosen/target gender, it's contradictory to demand special accommodations.
    I'm saying that there are predators, as I've cited, but no significant evidence of pedophiles specifically. So again, why would I defend something I don't believe?

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    You don't really understand that poisoning the well (frequent from you) is an ad hominem, do you?
    You said, "Our public showers, even at the gym, have doors.. Perhaps you should try that sometimes.." So from that I'm supposed to glean that A) you live in Australia, B) you have zero awareness of US (the country whose laws we are discussing) locker rooms portrayed in countless US movies, C) that you were referring to "doors" when you said "try that", instead of "try them", or D) that "showers...have doors" somehow implies that "changing rooms" have them as well?
    Sounds like you're just backpedaling.
    I really thought you had to be aware of the copious number of predators in women's rooms I've cited above. That story was just to illustrate the vulnerability.

    Since you conveniently ignored the question:
    What's the difference between a transgender woman, with a penis and sexually attracted to women, and a straight man in your locker room?
    What, afraid your answer may expose an inconsistency in your argument?

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    Look up "tone policing" and "poisoning the well".
    Bare assertion.


     
  19. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Brain-based research has repeatedly shown that female-to-male transsexuals have several male-like characteristics in neuroanatomy. In 2010, a team of neuroscientists compared 18 female-to-male transsexuals with 24 male and 19 female gynephilic controls, using an MRI technique called diffusion tensor imaging or DTI.[17] DTI is a specialized technique for visualizing white matter of the brain, and white matter structure is one of the differences in neuroanatomy between men and women. The study found that the white matter pattern in female-to-male transsexuals was shifted in the direction of biological males, even before the female-to-male transsexuals started taking male hormones (which can also modify brain structure).

    Similar brain structure differences have been noted between gay and heterosexual men, and between lesbian and heterosexual women.[18][19] Studies have also found that circumstance and repeated activities such as meditation modify brain structures in a process called brain plasticity or neuroplasticity. In May 2014, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences reported that parenting "rewires the male brain" for fathers.
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Brain_structure

    A potential limitation in the gray and white matter studies is related to brain functional plasticity. It has been demonstrated that changes in both white matter microstructure and gray matter can be induced by training/experience in healthy human adults (50, 51); thus, it would be difficult to know with certainty whether any observed brain differences between transgender and cisgender individuals are intrinsic or a consequence of experience.
    - https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-lookup/doi/10.1210/jc.2014-1919

    Forcier and Olson-Kennedy’s claim of an innate discordance between a child’s brain and body derives from diffusion-weighted MRI scans that demonstrate the pubertal testosterone surge in boys increases white matter volume, as well as from brain studies of adults who identify as transgender. A study by Rametti and colleagues found that the white matter microstructure of the brains of female-to-male (FtM) transsexual adults, who had not begun testosterone treatment, more closely resembled that of men than that of women.12 Other diffusion-weighted MRI studies have concluded that the white matter microstructure in both FtM and male-to-female (MtF) transsexuals falls halfway between that of genetic females and males.13 These studies, however, are of questionable clinical significance due to the small number of subjects and the existence of neuroplasticity. Neuroplasticity is the well-established phenomenon in which long-term behavior alters brain microstructure. There is no evidence that people are born with brain microstructures that are forever unalterable, but there is significant evidence that experience changes brain microstructure.14 Therefore, if and when valid transgender brain differences are identified, these will likely be the result of transgender behavior rather than its cause. More importantly, however, is the fact that the brains of all male infants are masculinized prenatally by their own endogenous testosterone, which is secreted from their testes beginning at approximately eight weeks’ gestation. Female infants, of course, lack testes, and therefore, do not have their brains masculinized by endogenous testosterone.15,16,17 For this reason, barring one of the rare disorders of sex development (DSD), boys are not born with feminized brains, and girls are not born with masculinized brains.

    Behavior geneticists have known for decades that while genes and hormones influence behavior, they do not hard-wire a person to think, feel, or behave in a particular way. The science of epigenetics has established that genes are not analogous to rigid “blueprints” for behavior. Rather, humans “develop traits through the dynamic process of gene-environment interaction… [genes alone] don’t determine who we are.”18 Regarding the etiology of transgenderism, twin studies of adult transsexuals prove definitively that prenatal genetic and hormone influence is minimal.
    - https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-dysphoria-in-children
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    22,897
    Still no dictionary on your end, obviously.
    There are no circumstances under which we would expect zero differences in brain development between trans, gay, and straight human beings.
    Are you unaware of the fact that those were all "straight" identified men?
     
  21. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    3,497
    Exactly, because genetic sex makes a difference.
    Are YOU unaware that many transgender women (?) are straight and have no intention of removing their penis?

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    Bruce Jenner is a notable example.
     
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    And the difference is reflected in the structure and function of the brain. Hence the matter at hand.
    What do you mean by "straight", and what's your point?
     
  23. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    1,547
    Thanks, Syne. I understand now.
    Bigots need a small, discrete, expendable group on which to concentrate their collective anxiety concerning the sexual dysfunction of a puerile, paranoid society.
     
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