Happy Australia Day

Discussion in 'History' started by paddoboy, Jan 25, 2020.

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  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Today is January 26th, celebrating the making of a Nation with the landing of the first fleet lead by Capt Arthur Phillip at Sydney Cove, Port Jackson [now Circular Quay] in 1788
    After delivering the Mrs to church [God bless her soul] I will be heading home, putting on my Budgee smugglers, going for a surf and swim at Maroubra beach, then heading back home for a shit, shower and shampoo and preparing the BBQ for myself and some mates with prawns and snags and some VB and Fosters.

    A great Aussie song, recognising all Aussies, indigenous and Imported sung by the Seekers and Judith Durham....
     
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  3. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    You’ve shared a little too much information lol but have a wonderful celebration!

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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Another favourite old Aussie song of mine......


    and the late great Slim Dusty.....


     
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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    He's an Aussie. Be thankful he held back!

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  8. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Also the day referred to by many indigenous Australians as Invasion Day, in which the British nation colonised the country while pretending that nobody lived there already.
     
  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Yep, acknowledged. And murdered and plundered along with many other undesirable so called do gooding deeds mostly prompted by religion btw.
    Yet by the same token, with mainly a couple of successive Labor governments, great progress has been made and recognition of the land Europeans did steal from them.
    Still the 26th January should remain despite some protest for change. I have plenty of idigenous friends, and live not far from a recognised indigenous suburb [Yarra Bay/La-Perouse] and drink with plenty more at a recognised local watering hole. Most are satisfied with the progress being made, the sorry as conveyed by Kevin Rudd, and see no need for change. But obviously extremes and those pushing those ideas, will always be with us.
    I had a good one anyway James! Hope you did too.
     
  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    I haven't really heard a good argument for why we should retain that particular date. Any date would do, wouldn't it?

    If that particular date is upsetting to some people, why not pick a different date?
     
  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Because its been recognised since the forties?
    And obviously changing the date would upset others? No not me in particular, I really wouldn't give a stuff, but as I have pointed out progress has been and is continually being made. Check out the now taken for granted "country welcomes" admissions at the beginnings of most of our sporting events.
    And of course I have no need to remind you of Gov Phillip and the first fleet in 1788.
    There are also some extreme people James, that are crying for much more then just a change of date....It's sad but injustices were done and at times probably are still done.
    I believe I'm maintaining a "middle of the road"approach that most accept.
     
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Ah, appeal to tradition.

    I guess we should ignore the 60000 year history that came before the 1940s, then?

    I thought you were arguing that "Still the 26th January should remain despite some protest for change."

    My mistake. You don't give a stuff. Okay. Got it.

    Australia has far bigger problems to tackle regarding the welfare and full recognition of its indigenous peoples than can be solved by merely reciting a few words about country at the start of sporting events.

    And so...?

    Out of interest, were you pro or anti the apology to the stolen generations? Do you think it is appropriate to apologise for wrongs done by previous generations? Not your fault, you weren't there?

    Not giving a stuff would be middle of the road, certainly.

    Arguing that the date should be retained is taking a side.
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Closer to 70,000 last time I researched it.
    And it is not being ignored, as I pointed out. You don't appear to have been interested in sport James, but I suggest that you start watching some tennis, cricket, football or such.

    Not really no I don't really care too much if it was changed. But by the same token, I don't believe the movement is that strong and will achieve anything much, other then inciting nonsense and racism from the other extreme.

    That is and will be achieved when we get the next Labor government in power I suggest, and I'm all for it.

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    What do you suggest James? Kicking out all us whites?
    I was 100% for the apology by Rudd, and probably would have suggested more. why? What have I said for you to question that?
    Let me inform you I have been in the past a member of the Labor party and was catorgised as a lefty [something along with other stupid tags I disagree with]
    I'm saying that the status quo need not be changed. And I will also say if there was any attempt to change it, we would have far more to deal with, with the extreme looney right.
    There are as you say, far more impressing issues with regards to indigenous folk.

    Now, out of interest, have you any indigenous friends? I don't mean one or two, I mean a dozen or so. Have you researched their opinions? I have, on both counts.
     
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    A strange thing for you to say, as if sport is relevant to the discussion we're having here.

    As it happens, I've been following the Australia Open tennis quite closely for the past week - not that it's at all relevant.

    I suggest that the Australian government starts taking indigenous matters seriously, which would mean actually listening to what our indigenous people have to say about what they want from the government. It would also mean taking further steps to address massive indigenous disadvantage in terms of economics and opportunity in Australia.

    There's really no need for you to get defensive. Nobody is suggesting you should be kicked out of the country.

    Sounds like you give a stuff. You're taking the conservative position.

    You're too scared of the looney right to stand up for indigenous issues?

    See, the thing about your whole "the status quo is fine" thing is that you're in the white majority whose lives are mostly unaffected by the status quo. As long as you're happy and provided for, there's no need to kick up a fuss, right?

    Australian aboriginal friends? No, I can't say I do. But indigenous Australians make up about 3.3% of the Australian population, so the statistics are against me. Moreover, the majority of that 3.3% doesn't live in my state, and the indigenous population where I live in my state is also lower than in some other areas.

    Yes, I have.

    For instance, from a recent poll of 1156 random Australians:

    Asked about whether the date of Australia Day should change, 54% of Indigenous Australians polled were in favour of a change, compared with a total of 15% of total Australians polled.
    Source (with a further breakdown of opinions and demographics):
    https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-and-name-of-australia-day-changed-poll-finds

     
  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Nothing strange at all. It is simply some small way we can recognise the previous long term owners of this land before the Invasion. It does though invalidate whatever it is that you are trying to push.
    That has obviously happened and will continue under the next Labor governemnt led by Albanese.
    Nothing defensive about it James...simply common fact, as undesirable as it was after the event. Just though another point for you to sweep under the carpet.

    Most reasonable thinking people do not see it as a conservative position, including a great majority of indigenous folk, many who I can claim as friends.
    No, I'm concerned about the "fuck you, I'm alright'position the majority of our people took at the last election by re-electing the biggest fool since Abbott. I will not give them any more reason to dismiss the Labor position, which is not concerned greatly with changing the date.
    You can put it anyway you like James, but that greater majority also includes many indigenous folk.
    A shame James, I have plenty great indigenous folk to mix and drink with and plenty I regard as friends.
    Yes, I have.
    1,156 is a piss in the Ocean James as you well know. I have around 70% to 40% for leaving the date as is, and that's in a normal everyday situation over a beer or two.
     
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Strange James, in your usual lengthy posts you generally reply to all replies. You asked me about my thoughts on the apology in parliament but failed to comment on my reply. Did it undermine somewhat the position you are trying to paint me into?
     
  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And 54% is of course a small margin to see any need to change something that has been with us since the 40's and could very well create more division, particularly since great progress is, has and will continue to be made when we elect a Labor gov again..
     
  18. foghorn Registered Senior Member

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    I hope no budgerigars were hurt at the end of the day.

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  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    paddoboy:

    Interesting. You're not sure what it is that I'm trying to push, but whatever it is you're sure you've invalidated it. Go figure.

    My main problem with what you've written here is that I get the impression that you think that whatever problems indigenous Australians might be experiencing, it isn't something that white Australians need to be overly concerned about, and there's no urgent need to change the way that governments (Labor or Liberal) deal with indigenous matters.

    If Labor was really going to sort everything out and make it hunky dory, I wonder why they didn't do that last time they were in government. Do you really expect things will be any different the next time we get a Labor government?

    Also, what about the next three years of Morrison and co.? Should we whitefellas all just tell our indigenous compatriots to wait until Labor eventually get elected again, and to keep quiet until then?

    Arguing that the status quo should be maintained is the definition of a conservative position. What do you think is being conserved by conservatives?

    Unfortunately, this pandering to the right is commonplace around the world right now. People are so concerned about losing the votes of the hypothetical right-winger who might theoretically flip over to the liberal side if given appropriate self-serving incentives, that they lose sight of the voters they are alienating by failing to stand up for progressive policies and instead offering conservative-lite policies.

    Not according to the recent poll I provided.

    You're saying that your impression of what your indigenous mates in your local pub would say on the topic negates the poll of 1156 random Australians that I cited? Did you poll 1000 of your closest indigenous friends to get your 70-40 figure? Is that a representative group, bearing in mind that I quoted from a poll that takes a random sample of Australians?

    You say that 1156 people is a small number of respondents. Have you run the statistics on that? What variation would you expect in a poll of 1156 people? If you conducted the poll again on a different random group of 1156 Australians, what are the chances that the 54% majority would turn into a 46% minority, for instance?

    How many people are typically polled by polling companies on political questions like this one?
     
  20. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Just giving you the benefit of some doubt.Let me put a few questions to you. You do support and find as absolutely necessary a change of date for Australia day, is that correct? So what date suits you? Is this date the choice of all indigenous folk? Is a change of date favourable with us white imported Aussies also?
    I see that as dishonest by you James, as someone who is obviously educated, would make no misatke about what I have said. Let me give it to you again. from post 6 and first reply to you...
    Pretty clear James and why I question your honesty taking into account your education. I then go on and say that I see any change of date as not really of much consequence and not supported by any great majority of indigenous people. You on the other hand appear to want to envelop this so called political correctness for appearance sake. Me? again I don't see it anywhere near as important as other indigenous matters.
    Governments never move as quick as you or I could wish for James, and more often then not, things are done to improve and eliminate injustices that many of us never hear about anyway. The indigenous injustices have been constantly improved over many successive Labor governements from the time of Gough through to Hawke, Keating, Rudd and Gillard, including the parlimentary apology.
    What do you suggest James? Remembering no one has said anything about keeping quiet. Are you promoting a revolution? riots? what?
    It is the position of a sizable majority, including that of indigenous folk.
    While certainly we do have a preponderance of right wing governments at this time, people are standing up to be counted and that includes the current situation in the US. But tell us James, what do you suggest?.

    Never been polled James and know no one who has in actual fact. And of course polls are in many cases wrong. You remember what the polls were telling us before our last Federal election?


    Anyway James, this thread was started by me to celebrate and pass on knowledge to others that it was Australia Day on the 26th Jan.
    And for the information of others, the following was the advert on TV promoting this fact and obviously the fact as portrayed in the add, that everything was never honky dory and wrongs were done.
    https://www.smh.com.au/national/wha...hts-raw-and-painful-past-20200121-p53teo.html

    The video is about a third of the way down.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And also the traditional owners and their customary traditions, which we saw at the beginning at many of the Australia Day ceremonies.

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    Not at all!

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    Na, just telling it as it is after a good surf!

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  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    paddoboy:

    If that's what most indigenous Australian want (and there are indications that it is), then yes, I support it.

    Why do you think your conservative preferences ought to override the preferences of those who have a legitimate complaint regarding the date? White privilege?

    Lots of dates would suit me just fine, but I don't think it's up to me to decide.

    I haven't made a mistake. And why do you respond to a comment about what is happening here and now with references to wrongs done 200 years ago?

    How great a majority would you require before you'd support changing the date? Would you ever support a change?

    You think this is a non-substantive matter of "political correctness gone made", do you? That would be consistent. You're highly resistant to changing your ways, as you have demonstrated in the in regard to sexist attitudes.

    Some symbolic gestures have been made, certainly, usually after lengthy periods of resistance and government intransigence. While those are important, they do little to address the practical disadvantages that indigenous Australians suffer on a daily basis.

    I've already told you what I suggest.

    I'm promoting the idea that indigenous views should be given fair consideration and not dismissed with a wave of the (white) hand because the "white majority" is too complacent or actively resistant to respond to reasonable requests.

    No. Only marginally over half of the voting population voted for our current conservative government, for instance.

    First and foremost, I suggest that people ought to inform themselves about the political world they live in. Conservative populists like Trump get voted into office because they are able to pull the wool over the eyes of uneducated, uninformed voters, who can thereby be convinced to vote against not only the best interests of their country, but against their own best interests (economic, social, health, you name it).

    Different polls said different things. Most of them correctly predicted the election outcome within their margin of error. Polls are not "in many cases wrong", unless they use a biased sample or are constructed so that they build in a bias, either intentionally or unintentionally.

    People can't be wrong about their expressed opinions. They can always lie to the pollsters, if they want to, but when they say they believe something or intend something (e.g. intending to vote for one party or another) usually they have no particular motive to lie in an anonymous poll.

    What are you celebrating? Governor Philip's landing at Botany Bay in 1788? Or something else? If it's not the landing of the First Fleet, then why is the date important?
     
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    54% TO 45% is just more then half as illustrated by one poll of which there is only a small sample. Still no good reason to change for the reasons I have stated previously and you so ingeniously ignored.
    No its not and I dare say that the barely just more then half [according to some poll you dug up] of indigenous folk are also unable to agree on a date.
    Yes you did and I also said

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    you were dishonest.
    Now if you can't see that and need to again attempt some cover up you go right ahead....
    you said....POST 16:
     
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