Hey Israel, You Missed One!!

that wasn't the reason. israel arrested them in response to the capture of the israeli soldier in gaza.

 

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aaa, if the crux of your argument is to elucidate the sequence of events, then you are correct; I apologize that my analogy was not precise in its chronology and thank you.

If you are instead suggesting that Hamas has not established itself as a terror organization seeking to expunge Israel, then I invite you to validate your claim.

 

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Ahem:

http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

"After the United States, the principal donor of both economic and military aid to Israel is Germany.

By far the largest component of German aid has been in the form of restitution payments to victims of Nazi attrocities. But there also has been extensive German military assistance to Israel during and since the Gulf war, and a variety of German educational and research grants go to Israeli institutions. The total of German assistance in all of these categories to the Israeli government, Israeli individuals and Israeli private institutions has been some $31 billion or $5,345 per capita, bringing the per capita total of U.S. and German assistance combined to almost $20,000 per Israeli. Since very little public money is spent on the more than 20 percent of Israeli citizens who are Muslim or Christian, the actual per capita benefits received by Israel's Jewish citizens would be considerably higher."

Not to mention the Jews were given their own freakin' country, heh. Not repaid? Pssh..

- N

 

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Ha, change the word 'Israel' to 'Muslim.' (praise Allah)

 

Neildo, you have just shown that the U.S. isn't the only country that is supporting Israel.

 

Why not just put "theist"? Equal opportunity and all that. Takes care of the whole detestable lot as far as you're concerned.

 

Neildo, you are correct that the Germans have repaid the Jews as much as it is possible to pay for 6 million lives, but realize that the "variety of German educational and research grants [that] go to Israeli institutions" are the result of Germany being a haven of engineering and Israel being a biotech hub. The cooperation is more a forward-looking partnership irrelevent to the ethnicities or histories of either country.

Also, although Buffalo Roam's original analogy that compares Israel to civilizations that have conquered and expelled an indiginous people is flawed, a better disproof than the Germany counterexample is the fact that the Jews are the indigenous people of Israel, and that they fought a defensive war rather than an expansionist war that created Arab refugees.

Either way, I agree with Buffalo Roam's conclusion that expecting all the concessions in this conflict to come from Israel does not make any sense.

 

It's Islam that supports killing for defence, I can't recall another. Can you?

 

Every country that has an Army, Navy or Air-Force.

Islam is a social religion that covers politics, remember?

Seems like every country is following the rules laid down then.

Or are there no atheists in the military services?

 

One more thing that I missed. It is not killing that is permitted in self-defence, it is fighting.

[PROPAGANDA]
Here are the relevant verses:

[5:87] O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[4:90] ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

And,

[4:94] O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

[7:28] They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"

The Qur'an repeatedly emphasizes that defensive war -- fighting to protect oneself against invading enemies -- is the only kind of combat sanctioned (2:190 - 191). In numerous other examples, it teaches that the use of force should be a last resort (2:192, 4:90); that normal relations between peoples, nations and states, whether Muslim or not, should be peaceful (49:13); that necessary wars must be limited in time and space (2:190); that maximum effort must be applied at all times to advance the cause of peace (10:25); that whatever means are undertaken to work for peace during a conflict (such as mediation and arbitration) must be attempted over and over again until resolution is achieved (8:61). [/PROPAGANDA]

 

Sam, when analyzing religious law, you cannot extrapolate contemporary praxis from a source text like the Quran or the Bible, as centuries of legal battles and hermeneutics determine the execution of the ancient text. The praxis of Islam derives from the Sharia, which clearly calls for offensive combat to spread Islam.

Obviously, not everyone will interpret source texts the same way, and many people from all religions interpret peaceful texts through the lens of fanatacism and develop violent ideologies: Look at the crusaders and the Spanish Inquisition amongst Christians; Hezbulla, Hamas and the Taliban amongst Muslims; and the Kahane party amongst the Jews. The test of a society's mettle is how they handle these extremists. Christians reformed, the Jews exiled Meir Kahane, yet it looks like many Muslims are buying into violent Islamic extremism. This is a real shame for the millions of Muslims who would love to live in peace, but the dominant strain of Islam isn't helping Israel any.
Despite the harmonius message of the actual text of the Quran, too many Imams rountinely call for the killing of Jews, because in their eyes, the very existence of Israel, even in pre-'67 borders, is an attack against Islam.

 

Yes, and?

But hey, are the Germans really "supporting" Israel, or is it more along the lines of mandatory "old guilt"?

- N

 

What force has Israel used to enforce the co-operation, and as escucho has pointed out,

 

How typical. You focus on one small part yet disregard all the other things Germany does, and has done, for Israel.

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- N

 

To answer your question: Israel supports killing for defense. At least I thought "defense" was the reason Israel gives for killing 1100 mainly innocents in Lebanon in last month (not to mention the 200 Israel killed in Gaza during that same time).

Are you saying that this disproportionate killing (not to mention the destruction of essential infrastructure) was not "defense motivated" but a simple war crime?

 

Biily T,

"At least I thought "defense" was the reason Israel gives for killing 1100 mainly innocents in Lebanon in last month (not to mention the 200 Israel killed in Gaza during that same time)."

Your language implies that you think Israel is targeting these people in an attempt to kill as many civilians as possible. Let us examine the goals and mechanisms of Israel vis-a-vis those of Hezbulla.

Hezbulla's charter calls for the destruction of Israel. When they fire their most powerful weapon, an unwieldly zelzal rocket, in the direction in which Jews live, they know one thing: they will probably kill Jews. That sounds like a cross between ethnic cleansing and genocide.

In comparison, Israel's main goal is to live in peace with its neighboors, as is evidenced by the many concessions Israel has offered to its Muslim neighboors from the Peel commision to Camp David. When militant Muslims reject Israeli offers of peace, Israel is faced with the difficult task of fighting an enemy that has woven itself into civilian society and uses women and children as human shields. It is a shame that many Lebanese civilians were killed, but if Hezbulla is launching rockets from civilian areas, and they know the Israelis will bomb the launch sites, why are they inciting Israel?

"disproportionate killing"
As I mentioned a few posts back, William Safire wrote a great piece about "proportionality" in the Israel-Islam conflict. There is no rule in war that if someone attacks you with a machete you can defend yourself only with a brick and a super dragon punch. If someone comes to kill you, you neutralize the threat. Notice that Hezbulla and Hamas are doing everything in their power to kill any and all Jews, whereas Israel is exercising extreme restraint in proportion to the amount of damage they could cause if they accepted the standards of respect for human life their enemies employ.

 

Neildo

and how is Israel making the Germans do this?

 

"Are you saying that this disproportionate killing (not to mention the destruction of essential infrastructure) was not "defense motivated" but a simple war crime?"

Disproportionate killing? So what is fair killing? 1-1? Is that how wars have to be fought these days? I guess China or India will win by default. What a retarded concept.
Hezbollah starts a stupid war which gets 1100 of their own people killed and then they whine about Disproportionate killing. I guess we should all start using sticks to give Hezbollah a fair chance.

 

crazy151drinker, don't you know that you need to understand the terrorist, validate their feeling, say, Please May I, before you do anything, that this is a sporting event and all side must be treated equally, and the side must lose equally, this is a bunch of bullshit, to end a problem you have to deal with the problem and that may mean a ass kicking for one party to make them understand that the way their are going about things is not acceptable, and the use of civilians as target and shield is not acceptable, the Israelis used precision guided munitions, and attacked launching sites, fighting positions, and command and supply structure, that the Hezbullah placed in civilian areas, with the purpose of causing civilian casualties, for propaganda purposes, what precession weapons did the Hezbullah use, none and even the stuff that had some targetable munitions were launch at the cities against civilians, not at targets of military value, and again the U.N. stepped in and saved the Terrorist, with a cease fire that now nobody wants to send troops to, The French insisted on this cease fire and now they won't send more that 200 troops, yea, now that is standing behind your principles, and Lebanon hasn't even tried to disarm the Hezbullah, or the resupply, and then scream bloody murder when the Israelis do. How long before the next round? not long unless the U.N. does better than it has ever done before, it time either the U.N. bring meaning full sanctions against the Countries supporting hezbullah and terrorism, or get out of the way and let war do it job, and stop saving the Terrorist and Arabs from the consequences of their not making a real peace with Israel.

 

With plastic forks and knives or guns and missiles?

Thank you for making my point.