How much of whatsupyall/musclemans's posts do u comprehend?

"Then you do* think that logic is universal. "

I suppose I do. I can't think of any way that logic would not be universal. I can understand how certain logic sets would be flawed in different ways, but that there is only one way to have unflawwed logic. Its a tough question. Logic which is a falicy in one persons ideas and is the truth in anothers seems outlandish.

"What usually happens when human logic meets an obstacle? What is the usual outcome?"

Um... we overcome it? I'm not sure what you mean. My writing is even boring me. Damnit I might have to spice it up.

"You are not atheist. You are agnostic."

Well, actually I do disblelive in god (I do not believe in god), I don't DENY it per se, but close. No matter what the dictionary says, athiesm is used to mean one that does not believe in god, and I fit that description quite well. Agnostic is usually associated with uncertainty and undecidedness. I am in no way undecided about god. I truely do not believe he exists. Or at least I believe he exists just as much as I believe there is a giant invisible frog in space. I just can't accept something without evidence.

"Yet, choice is left out, which is what most people think of as freewill. "

Tell that to whatsupall....

 

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Logic vs. Faith

Tough question indeed. That's why I am not inclined to think that logic is unviersal. Logic is an incredibly useful and succsessful human tool. The accuracy of logical arguments increase with knowledge if you know what I mean. So bro... or sis... things that seem illogical now... might just be missing a bit of needed info... this has been repeatedly proven... non-the-less... you need faith to believe in God. If you rely on logic the closest it can get you is to agnosticism. You should try faith before you dismiss it as ludicrous. I think many people fear faith because they don't understand it. Then they ridicule. Then they persecute. It was the same thing with scientists and the Roman Catrholic Church back in the Rennaisance or however you spell it. Now the roles have been reversed. Look at the scientists now. I expect another 'role reversal'. It is imminent You can never understand faith until you put your faith in what/who is the epitomy of truth... God.

 

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The Catholic Church was not the big, nasty, evil institution that you would make it out to be.

While the persecution of Galileo and the murder of Giardano Bruno did much to halt the progress of science, as well as the prohibation of dissection and the Index, it is unfair to say that the RCC "persecuted scientists" at any point.

The RCC held onto power the way any institution does. While this doesn't make them praise worthy, it also does not mean that you can blame the Church for every bad thing that ever happened.

In conclusion, pick on some other religion, why don't you? Leave the friggin' Catholics be. Show a little creativity and stop beating the dead horse of "OOoooh! The Catholic Church is evil! Me make criticism of bad church! Look at me! I've criticised the fucking Catholics for the upteenth fucking time! I can preform fellatio on myself!"

Get a life.

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Oh, and claiming that one has to believe in God to be able to believe in God is, ummm, not exactly MENSA level logic.

 

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MarcAC:

"You should try faith before you dismiss it as ludicrous. "

Faith... = belief without reason. I cannot do this, I really can't. I do not understand how you can either. Has god "talk"ed to you mark? If so, then I need him to do the same with me before I can have faith.

 

Lol, I just posted this in another thread, but it seems fitting here too....

Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence.

 

Frencheneez, you have strong faith and u just dont realize it. You have faith in science and your own judgment...

Faith in God is not as easy as faith in things of the world...

You want God to give you spiritual experience?

"An evil generation will seek for a sign but not one will be given to them except that of Jonah"- Jesus Christ...The sign of Jonah was "REPENTANCE", which is following the virtues of God...Being good, loving, forgiving, patient, generous, etc...

If you do the virtues above, God will reveal Himself to you because you earned it "Seek and you shall find".

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and all this things shall be added unto you"....

Be good and kind to your neighbors FROM WITHIN, be as loving as you can, sacrifice if you have to to save another man's life. And God will reveal Himself to you, now, or the afterlife.........God is the greatest treasure, you donot find him by being perverted, lazy, disrespectfull, you will not see God because your blinded by all these, and God will not force himself on you........

 

More faith than I have in a book or building (bible or church)... But I realize my judgement is most likely wrong too. But I'm speaking for myself, not Frencheneez.

No, that's the christians job in this pyramid scheme right?

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U might say "How could God reveal Himself to an idiot like you"...

Well yur right, I am an idiot..I am a sinner, I am jacked up in the head, but I wasnt always like these...When I was younger, I was a different person. God revealed himself to me twice when I was 15, and 17 yrs old. Because it started when I watch the TV and see those starving african people in somalia, u know those donatiuon request thing, i feel so bad that I would secretly cry in my room. Because of that, I remmebered praying in my room and cry for them...In fact when I recieve allowances for my mother, I would starve myself in school and not buy lunch, and I donate the money to the church instead, knowing that same money will be sent to starving peeps..Thats how it started when I was young, then I began praying more and more...Then I would slowly pull myself away from peers, then one night, I prayed, I heard a very very deep voice on my ears and He said "I love you, I love you, I love you", He said it about 3 times, the 1st time it was loud, then the second one was less loud, then the 3rd one I can hardly hear it...I remembered the hair on the back of my neck was standing, I was shocked...Ever since then I prayed everyday...2 years later I was rejected by a girl I really really liked, and at the time I was breaking up, so I prayed the rosary, and asked God to remove my acnes, (I know it sounds funny) after my prayer, I heard a loud voice within, so loud that it was clearer than the voice 2 yrs before, I was looking at the picture of Jesus face, He said "You dont need that, you need inner healing"...........

FROM THERE ON, MY FAITH WAS HARDER THAN A ROCK AND STEEL COMBINED..I BEGAN PREACHING TO MY FRIENDS, WHETHER THEY LIKE ME OR NOT, I BEGAN PREACHING TO MY MOM, ETC. (Only my family knew this experience I had, I never shared this to anyone because they might call me "delusional"). I was 17 then, ignorant about physics and scientific theories, I had a roommate 2 years Later from High school, his name is Cris, he was an atheist...Thats how I learned how to debate with atheists, plus he showed me internet and I did alot of reading online, then I got my own comp....Then the world was drawing itself inside me. I got addicted with females, working out, clubbing, and I was slowly slowly losing my virtues (but my faith is still rock hard because of the experience), 3 years later, today here I stand, and wants to return to the life of virtues...

Today, Im 22, and just attempting to relive the life that Im called to......Im done with the world, its all a chase after a wind...

So Im sorry if I am insulting....But dont get the truth confused with my personality, truth is truth, and what i said is truth.. But the insults were unecessary...So Im sorry....

 

Holy crap! Whatsupyall has just given me some insight to his scenario... Kudos to you, almost no caps or insults, and you're getting your point across much better already! I can't say I agree with your beliefs, but I encourage you to persue them, as long as you are tolerant of others.

 

It's nice to know that the Supreme Being isn't a date rapist. I feel so much better.

 

Xev, no insult intended, have you just plain grown bored of this site? Don't get me wrong, I find your posts funny, I do. But when I first joined, not too long ago, you and I had an interesting debate, but that was the last time I ever heard you make an insightful post. I know you're smart, but it seems like you're no longer interested...

 

Christian faith is not "blind" belief. Yes, it is belief in the unseen. In that sense it is particularly not blind, since not being able to see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

We base our belief on a history of evidence and miracles that are corroborated by present day experience. My life has been blessed since I was born, and I have that largely to thank to Christian parents. My parents are a blessing - and I know I am a blessing to them as well. God has shown me grace all through my life.

Even when I could question the nature and ways of God, I never had any reason to doubt His presence in my life. I never had reason to rebel against anything. My parents never controlled my life - as a matter of fact, they never gave me curfews or orders. But I knew they cared and trusted me, and I knew they loved me. It was easy to love them back. When I let them doen, I was always the one who got hurt by my own ignorance and selfishness.

I have the same relationship with God. I know I do selfish things, but I also know He warned me against the consequences, and have no reason to blame Him when I reap what I sow.

My faith in God is the same faith I have in my parents, even when they are far away and 'invisible'. The fruits of our relationship will continue even after they are dead, and I will be the living evidence of their existence and their love. God was a father to Israel even when they began following their own heads, but He saw that laws didn't work, so He sent Jesus as living evidence of Him, to fulfill the law in advance. What we live now is the legacy of that. But you can only believe in God if you believe in Jesus as a historical fact.

 

Jenyar:
Did you choose to have faith or did you just wake up with it?

Notme:
There's nothing TO debate. Religion has become an idiot's playground, more or less.

My turning into an embittered, domineering bitch isn't helping either.

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notme2000: I think Xev has had it up to here with people like Whatupyall and to be honest, so have I

 

That was the most useless (or one of the innumerable) posts you have ever made, Xev. Gimme a break

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I do believe she's tired of this post. Tssk tssk, us atheists need more mental endurance to debate more here. Not that I'm particularly great but at least I try.

Xev, lame lame lamitty lame

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__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos

 

Meh!! There's no point continuing this thread is whatsupmuscleman has no intention of actually reading any of our posts

 

Xev:
Both, in a way. I was born to Christian parents, and by the time I could question my beliefs there was nothing left to question. Not because of them or myself. It has been pure grace. The reason I say this is that I have come to realise that what I at first thought was my personal philosophy or my own way of living has turned out to be God's will.

Ironically, the moment I realised this I thought I had to struggle to keep it that way. Predicatably, my strength failed and I had to realise the hard way what God meant when He said we need nothing more than what He has already given us - His grace is enough.

After school I didn't know what I wanted to study. So I just went to university one day with my dad and someone there asked me what I liked. I liked theory, literature, philosophy, psychology, art, computers and people. So they recommended Information Science with a few electives. When I got to the information science department I met a lecturer who turned out to be starting a publishing course in that department. So after a year of Information science I switched to publishing, where I met the most inspiring person of my whole life, who became my best buddy through varsity, and who turned out to be that lecturer's son. Remember the name John North... you'll read about him one day.

That lecturer got me into a job at a local publisher - which paid for my honours under an Oxford University Press publisher - which later got me into a job in Cape town, where I met my girlfriend. My honours lecturer (with whom I had become good friends) became extremely ill with a variant of scarlet fever only found in horses, while I was there (The doctors had no idea what to do), so I asked my Bible study friends to pray for her with me. That was the first time my girlfriend (who had her doubts about God) ever went me. That lecturer is still very much alive, and only a month ago I got my present job through her recommendation. I have never had to go for a real job interview in my life, which is a lot to say for a white South African male in the present South Africa.

Besides my lifelong "lucky streak", I have had my share of misfortune. While I was staying for free in the most expensive town in the Western Cape (friends of my girlfriend's parents had inhereted the house and let me stay there while they are in Germany), my girlfriend left me. Subsequently I crashed my car while driving against the sun, and since it wasn't my car (my grandmother gave it to me) and wasn't insured, it cost me my life-savings to repair. My mental state wasn't well... but all my friends proved true, and I realised how fortunate I was (you'd think I would have realised it sooner). But I realised that God gave me everything I ever needed, and that what I had lost was given to me in the first place! That was a turning point in my life. Ever since then, instead of looking for Laetitia Casta on the internet, I found this forum.

And you have no idea how much more of the Bible I've been reading because of this forum

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So thanks to atheists I have gotten to know God a lot better. And you know what, even if things got completely out of hand and I lost everything now, I can never lose what I have learned and experienced. Even more still - I have to give thanks to God publicly, because I really have nothing to claim for myself.

J

 

Frustration Indeed

You have attributed too much meaning to my comment Xev. Nowhere did I say the Catholic Church was a big nasty whatever. I'm a Christian Xev. Are you trying to tell me that you think the Roman Catholic Church is a religion within itself? This was one great* catharsis [notice the double wammy

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]. It could not have been aimed at me though. Your frustration shows bro... or sis... Veritably so; you see things that aren't there."Oh, and claiming that one has to believe in God to be able to believe in God is, ummm, not exactly MENSA level logic."Please show me where I made the 'botch-up'. Oh one more thing."Get a life". What kind of statement is that? How do you know I don't have a life? Or are you inherrently defending psychics too? Or better yet the existence of ghosts? The only rational reason you would think I don't have a life is because I post on this website, and in that case, you know you just told yourself and everyone else who read YOUR post to get a life - the frustration shows.

 

Zero:
Lame, yes, but I made a bunch of paedophilia jokes yesterday and I'm afraid that I'll be struck by lightening or something if I started telling date rape jokes.

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Jenyar:
Thanks.

Marc:
Umm, yeah.
I said get a life because of the whiney, self rightous, "bad RCC, eeeevviiiiilll" crap.

 

In reference to argueing with whatsupyall:

"Don't argue with the stupid. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." - Unknown