If No Consciousness Exists, By What Right Does The Universe?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Cyperium, May 22, 2021.

  1. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,020
    Imagine a time in the universe before any consciousness exists, to imagine it you have to picture it and have some kind of reference frame for it. You look upon it. Now, take that away, because consciousness doesn't exist.

    What is now the difference between the universe existing and simply nothing existing?

    Resist the urge to try to imagine the universe existing, cause that reference doesn't exist at that time.

    My proposal is that of the strong anthropic principle. I think that consciousness is indeed needed for the universe to exist. Perhaps consciousness has always existed and may be the fundamental part of existence itself. Not necessarily human consciousness as we perceive it, but a kind of consciousness.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,357
    But before I was born I could think of a time before I was born.

    If I'd call out it would answer.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,479
    The Universe exists whether there are people or not. There is no life on the Moon and yet it exists.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,499
    That is absurd. What an over inflated sense of importance. Do you have any idea of the size of the universe?? Any idea at all??
    We are insignificant.
     
  8. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,313
    Absence of a cognitive system to generate evidence (from environmental information) that the universe existed is not the same thing as how it existed/exists minus sensory representation and rational apprehension or technical description.
     
  9. geordief Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,789
    Seems to me that the (inert) universe contains consciousness as a potentiality.

    Then again it may well equally contain the lack of consciousness as another potentiality.

    All (or much)may be revealed when/if we discover other sentient entities elsewhere in the universe that seem to have arisen entirely independently of the life forms we are already acquainted with.

    Or if it can be shown that this is vanishingly unlikely....
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2021
  10. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,020
    I don't understand that last sentence; "if I'd call out it would answer", but there was consciousness around before you were born. The universe was around before any of us was born. However, consciousness anywhere and more importantly at any time necessitates the conditions that made it arise everywhere.


    Consciousness anywhere necessitates the conditions that made it arise everywhere.


    I don't think it is the size that matters. That size means nothing without consciousness. What an empty place it would be without any consciousness. In fact, I think it wouldn't be at all.

    I beg to differ. It might very well be that the universe is reliant on a technical description of what it is, in fact, we uncover more and more of that description, it has surprised mathematicians how much of the universe that we have been able to uncover using descriptions (mathematical relations in this case) and how little that just is without relying on any description (the fundamental constants for example).

    Either way, I think the universe needs consciousness to have a reality in which it can exist.



    Might be that this potential consciousness needs to be manifested somewhere at some time in order to make the potential of the universe manifest. The idea being that there has to be a distinction from what exists and nothing, and consciousness is that distinction. Cause what distinguishes the universe from nothing at all if there is no awareness of it? In what reality does it exist then?
     
  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,098
    Me thunks (sic) thou art confusing exist

    exist

    have objective reality or being.

    WITH

    perceived

    become aware or conscious of (something) come to realize or understand.

    Definitions from Oxford Languages

    If physics worked the way you described nothing would be in existence, which does not appear to be the current situation

    Why? There must be a few million people with no perception of vast sections of reality ie stuff which exists. Many of these non perceptions would overlap

    Hence, according to yourself, these non perceptions actually would not exist

    I suppose you could claim one person's consciousness of something cancels out another person's non consciousness of the same something. I would answer back WHY?

    Why does consciousness have preference over non consciousness?

    And I am certain there is much in the Universe which exist of which, currently, we have no consciousness of its existence

    To bad it will never be discovered because every person on earth has non consciousness of its existence

    Coffee time

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
    Luchito likes this.
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,526
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.”
    ― Philip K. Dick,
    You have this backwards. Physical reality needs to exist for the potential of emergent consciousness to become explicated. Consciousness is an emergent result of a physical pattern.

    All biological patterns are proof of an emergent consciousness (awareness of environment) in parallel with complex biological patterns, such as heliotropism and earliest bacteria.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Major stages in the evolution of the eye in vertebrates.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

    In your scenario, how do you propose that the universe acquires awareness of itself unless there is something physical that is observable to begin with?
    Which contradicts your statement that consciousness precedes physical reality.

    Consciousness does not exist independent of physical patterns. There is no Magic!
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
  13. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,098
    Strange coincidence

    I came across Chris Langan's Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe (CTMU)

    Based on a very quick check this

    If No Consciousness Exists, By What Right Does The Universe?

    seems to be a thunk along same lines

    EDIT

    Had spare few minutes to read a bit more, seems CTMU is a version of defining god into existence

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,526
    This from the link:
    This appears to me as a misleading statement. Not that it is necessarily wrong, but that it uses bad "language".

    In effect what is proposed is : Reality is an emergent self-referential organization of fundamental values into self-organizing patterns. (Chaos Theory)

    The language it uses is the language of natural mathematical processing functions, constants which guide the self-referential dynamics into evolving complex patterns. But as has been demonstrated self-referential organization does not need to be conscious.

    Newton’s Third Law: Action & Reaction; Whenever one object exerts a force on a second object, the second object exerts an equal and opposite force on the first.
    https://www1.grc.nasa.gov/beginners-guide-to-aeronautics/newtons-laws-of-motion/#

    Mathematical values and functions are in essence a semi-intelligent self-referential operating platform. A perfect example can be found in the evolution of AI, which is an artificially constructed pattern with self-referential information processes.

    Understanding the Self-Referential Problem
    https://futureoflife.org/2019/03/21...ng-ai-an-interview-with-ramana-kumar-part-2/#

    From this we can conclude that "evolution by natural selection" is a form of self-referential pattern forming with increasing complexity and "ability to do work", without the necessity of conscious motivation.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
  15. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,146
    It seems to me this makes the widely prevalent, and in my view wrong, assumption that "consciousness" is an entity, a thing. I believe this is a category mistake.

    What we call consciousness seems to be simply the activity of the brain, not an entity at all. It is an activity, a process, that goes on in living organisms with a well-developed nervous system.

    At any rate, I have seen no evidence that consciousness is anything more than that.
     
    Yazata likes this.
  16. geordief Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,789
    Is there any demarcation point between the brain and the environment ?

    Does your definition /understanding of "consciousness" bleed into its surroundings?

    The brain can be anywhere in the body .Can the body be anywhere in the environment?
     
  17. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,098
    The skull

    No

    The brain can be anywhere in the body

    NO

    Can the body be anywhere in the environment?

    Lots of places in the environment would kill you

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!




     
  18. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,146
    I don't follow you. When you boot up your PC, the operating system of the computer starts to function, creating activity in the processor. I see consciousness as the activity of the brain. The brain is an organ with a definite anatomical location.
     
  19. geordief Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,789
    I have heard/understood that the brain is synonymous with the nervous system(and,from memory that some animal's brain is situated somewhere other than the head)

    There is no hard and fast demarcation between the brain and the nervous system is there?


    Is it a bit like in topology where a teacup transforms into a doughnut?

    Sure the brain is at the centre of the nervous system but I think I have heard that parts of the nervous system can function in a brain like way
     
  20. geordief Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,789
    I think/hope I am using all the terms in a functional way rather than any concrete way (I normally accuse myself of "literalism")

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,526
    You cannot use any terms in a functional way in this instance. Michael is correct in identifying the skull as the literal demarcation point between the brain and the environment.

    The brain is a self-organized lump of bio-molecules completely isolated from the exterior. It is a "brain in a box". it cannot see light, it cannot hear sound, it cannot smell odor. It is indeed a central processing system of secondary information.
    That is not correct.

    The senses experience excitation which is converted into electro-chemical information. The neural network is the transportation system of that electro-chemical information. The brain is the processor of that information (in the case of an octopus, it has 8 individual smaller semi-autonomous brains, connected to the main central brain).

    The information itself is of an electro-chemical nature, received, which the central brain must process and compare with information stored in memory, in order to make a "best guess" of what that information represents.
    I agree. Consciousness is an emergent extra-sensory product of the combined brain processes of electro-chemical sensory information.

    Consider the biochemical self-organizing pattern of the brain;

    Stunning details of brain connections revealed
    Date: November 17, 2010
    Source: Stanford University Medical Center
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101117121803.htm#
     
  22. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,146
    Oh I see what you mean. Certainly the optic nerve is supposed to do some neural processing, I think. But it's a detail. The point is I have never seen anything to suggest that consciousness is anything more than the activity of the processor in a nervous system. For instance, if you shut down this activity, consciousness ceases.
     
  23. geordief Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,789
    Fair enough.
     

Share This Page