Immigration Crisis or an Economic Opportunity?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Michael, Oct 6, 2015.

  1. wellwisher Banned Banned

    Sweden is able to be a successful Democratic Socialist nation because of the unique culture of the Swedish people. Deep down it depends on the good will of all the people. The same experiment would not work in all cultures. It is like a delicate orchid, which needs very special care. This is why, this ideal does not organically form all over the earth.

    One of the main problems with too much immigration is, if there is not enough assimilation to the orchid's growing medium, the new composite soil, may not be as optimized to this very delicate flower.

    The Swedish example, cannot be found anywhere in the middle east, since those cultures are not conducive to this experiment. Does anyone think you could transplant Democratic Socialism to Syria or Iran, without bloody wars and lingering grudges? This cultures are old and set in their ways. The problem this orchard faces is if the soil is changed too much by immigration, not conducive to orchids, this unique orchid may stop growing and flowering. It may go extinct, never to be seen again.

    The world needs to preserve this unique experiment, so we can study how and why it grows, there.
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  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    One of the German Leaders of Progressive Socialist Paradise Germany:

    "The [German] Elites are not the problem. Right now, the PEOPLE ARE [THE PROBLEM]."
    -- German President Joachim Gauck

    "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche"
    -- Marie Antoinette (purportedly)


    Incidentally, looks like the German government have passed a law that allows them to steal around 1.5 billion Euros from their public health care fund reserve (10 billion euros in total, paid by all members and the taxpayer). This money will be given to asylum seekers. You know, because Germans have no reason to reproduce - their's is one of the lowest reproductive rates in the world (lower than Japan). Why reproduce? The State is going to magically take care of everything. F*ck having kids. Them's expensive. And why worry? German Elites will take care of things. And right now, German Elites needs them some tax chattel.

    Let's see how this works out for the German Progressive Social Paradise.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2016
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  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    News from the front: Progressive Social Paradise, Deutschland, far right anti-immigrant Alternative for Germany (AfD) party beats Merkel in her home district (Reuters).

    German Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats were beaten into third place by the anti-immigrant and anti-Islam Alternative for Germany (AfD) party in a north-eastern state election on Sunday, TV exit polls showed. In a stinging defeat for Merkel in her home district that could weaken her chances of a fourth term in next year's federal elections, the upstart AfD took 21.9 percent of the vote behind the center-left Social Democrats (SPD) in their first election in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern by campaigning hard against the chancellor's policies on refugees, according to a projection by ARD TV at 1.15 p.m. ET.

    "This isn't pretty for us," said Michael Grosse-Broemer, one of Merkel's top deputies in parliament in Berlin in a ZDF TV interview. "Those who voted for the AfD were sending a message of protest." Merkel's approval rating has plunged to a five-year low of 45 percent, down from 67 percent a year ago, due to spreading disenchantment with her open-door policies on refugees.

    According to a Der Spiegel magazine report, Merkel wanted to announce her intention of running for a fourth term this year but put that on hold due to resistance from her Bavarian sister party, the Christian Social Union. The arch-conservative CSU has demanded that Merkel put limits on the numbers of refugees.

    It should be noted, legally, all refugees can (and should) be returned to the first safe country they entered (Turkey and Greece). Let's see what Progressive Poster Child Sweden does.
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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Incidentally, via Reuters: German right-wing leader backs citizens' right to arm themselves.

    The leader of the populist Alternative for Germany (AfD) party has spoken out in favor of people arming themselves with guns and self-defense devices following a series of violent attacks last month. The anti-immigrant AfD has won growing popular support in Germany due in part to Europe's migrant crisis, which has seen more than 1 million refugees arrive over the past year, and it now has seats in eight of Germany's 16 state assemblies. After two Islamist attacks and a shooting rampage by a mentally unstable teenager last month, Germans are on edge and the AfD is expected to make a strong showing in votes next month in Berlin and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

    "Many people are increasingly feeling unsafe. Every law-abiding citizen should be in a position to defend themselves, their family and their friends," Frauke Petry told the Funke Media Group in an interview published on Saturday. "We all know how long it takes until the police can get to the scene, especially in sparsely populated places," she said. Known for her fiery speeches to AfD supporters, Petry sparked an uproar earlier this year when she called for German police to be allowed to use firearms against illegal migrants.

    My prediction, across the coming decades Germany will come to look exactly like the USA - for the exact same reasons.
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    The basic and dominant economic system of both Sweden and Germany is corporate market capitalism.

    Refugee policy has nothing to do with socialist or capitalist economic organization, directly. Any country with any economic system can welcome, or reject, refugees.

    Keep the basic facts of the situation in focus.

    Germany will enslave the refugees, and later fight a civil war to free them and make them citizens?
  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    How are you delineating corporate market-capitalism from fascism? For example, a privately owned company that receives tax-currency from the Government to provide a good or service? Is that 'corporate market-capitalism'? How about a publicly owned 'institution'? Are Government Schools examples of 'corporate market-capitalism'? Are Private Schools that receive tax-currency through tuition vouchers examples 'corporate market-capitalism'?

    Germany has a mixed economy of progressive socialism (as exampled by it's socialist Government schools, progressive Government debt-based currency and progressive Central Bank and progressive Income/Labor tax - which the Government used to influence their highly Government regulated limited-choice markets) and Government legalized "Corporations" which are allowed to, once meeting a massive number of Government Regulations, offer a few products to the public/tax chattel -- whom are then allowed to use their meager Government currency to *gasp* express their subjective value and desire within their highly Government regulated society to *gasp* trade with one another / participate in the non-free Government-regulated markets.

    No, the middle class will pay for the ghettoization of their cities through the Welfare State. Over time, their once beautiful cities will look like our shit hole no-go zone cities. But, that's just a transitional phase. In time, they'll look like other Authoritarian Paradises, like: Egypt, Lebanon, Londonstan, etc....

    That said, I have to say, Europe is making a wonderful example of itself. Now, almost every single Japanese I speak to are admittedly opposed to allowing any refugees into Japan. Any talk of multiculturalism is completely off the table. No way. They all point to the mess that is Germany (not sure if they noticed Sweden) as an example of what not to do.

    So, some good is coming from German idiocracy. Who knows? Maybe future historians will look at MaMa Merkel as having heralded the shift of power and influence from the West to the East like a clarion call?

    Thanks Merkel, you ole' bag of East German poo

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    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    I'm not sure what you mean by the notion of delineating the economic system characterizing fascism from fascism itself. Are you asking how I differentiate politics from economics?
    So not at all like the US history, but with similar end results.

    You have such faith in the certainty of events that have never yet happened anywhere.
    Are they also going to give up their socialist institutions, government currencies, health care, etc, - modeled after the same traditions of government as Sweden's and Germany's, and according to you the source of those countries's current difficulties?
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Saving Refugees to Save Europe
    - George Soros

    The article is worth the read.

    IMO: Decades of Progressive "Democratic" Socialism, has distorted the price mechanism, and through the Central Bank fiat currency manipulation has subsequently altered Europeans behaviours in a manner where they no long have children. Price is one of the principle means by which people value things and themselves; and thus alter their behaviour accordingly. It's one of the reasons why money was invented in the first place. A gold star on your Grade A homework. Want more of those, do more of the same.

    Not to mention, a person will dedicate decades of training to "become" a physician or lawyer - because they want to 'make a lot of money'. Whereas they may have made a good baker. Positive reward is powerful in driving behaviour.

    Well, one behaviour that has been greatly affected is procreation. The same thing happened in Japan. For similar reasons. And is happening in the USA (which is why The Narrative is so important). It's difficult to have a family when you're paying for the previous three generations the Socialists promised themselves. One big fat Baby Generation feeding off the productive capacity of the next 3 and it's no longer possible for people to pay for both the Baby's Social Entitlements as well as raise the next generation. So, many people just stop having children.

    The Narrative

    Well, bye bye EU, nice knowing you. Oh, and a big big shout out to Germany, you're really making my job in Japan much easier. Not that it wasn't easy to begin with, but a little empirical reinforcement helps - Popper would be proud

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  12. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    It's easier to raise children now than ever before. Raising fewer children is a sign of prosperity and female empowerment. Notice Europe is more prosperous than South America, where abortion is often illegal. If anything, a large population is a bad goal, it will be harder on the environment and thus less sustainable in the long run.
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    The people who stopped having children were the ones who could easily pay for them.

    So your explanation there is delusional - contradicted by observable fact, all around you.

    Meanwhile, the ability to pay for the big fat Baby's social entitlements was built in, originally - the fat built up by the Baby was to be drawn down, via a progressive income tax. The Baby was set up to pay for itself. Do you recall what happened to that eminently sensible social contract?
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    They could have easily 'debt' for them.
    Not paid.
    They could have indebted for them.

    Manipulating the price of money, as well as its supply (Progressive Central Banking) led to one generation having more children than they otherwise could afford (seemingly, to you, 'easily paid'), resulting in the next generation (a big one - and productive, and somewhat free) believing they could live without children ('easily afford their 'free' retirement). This massive distortion of price-mechanism is why Europeans (and Japanese) had too many children (aged 60 - 80) and now not enough children (aged 9). Worse still, the effects are generational. As in, many resources have to be (and are) diverted to care for the old, and not spent on the young. Literally undermining society itself. One solution may be to strip the old of their assets. Oh, I mean: 'Tax'. If they had children, or friends who will care for them - then this will be their means of living. If not, the benevolent State will 'care' for them. You know, General Welfare.

    Let's see who the Millennials elect, a couple cycles from now

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    In a free market, less children would have been born before, and more children would be born now. We'd have a more sustainable population growth. Instead we got your typical Central Banking BUBBLE. This is what they do (see: Housing BUBBLE for another example, or Bond BUBBLE, or the Natural Gas BUBBLE or the millions of other bubbles they blew - population being just one of many).

    Government / State Authoritarianism / Centralized coercive violence / Socialism (democratic, progressive, or otherwise) is returning full circle in Europe - and the price will finally be paid.
    The ultimate price: Europe itself.
    Only this time, there's no rebuilding Europe. It doesn't actually work that way. There's a reason why Germany and Japan (and finally China) rebuilt their economies in a couple decades and there's a reason why other nations don't / can't.

    In the meantime,
    Welcome To America, Europe.
    Enjoy your stay, just mind the bullets.

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    Oh, and thanks for the example. It was a doozy. That much is for sure. Great job guys. Enjoy paying for millions of refugees and their families and extended families and etc.... Work hard now. Not 10 to 4, try 6 - 10. Free doesn't come cheap.

    I'm sure they "thought" they could afford NOT to have children - they were manipulated and are now realizing they were wrong. The LAST thing they could afford to do was not to have children. Unbeknownst to them. Progressive Central Banking - destroying Civilization itself, so you don't have to.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2016
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    I don't disagree that large populations are unsustainable. Too bad we have a bubble in population two generations ago.

    I'm not sure why you think raising children is 'easier'? It's not easier. It's harder. In the past families were close and could help. Now children are shoveled into day supervision centers where they are not raised at all. They then graduate to Government schools where (if they're a boy) they're put on anti-depressants (if not already) and shit through a 12 mile long pipe at 1 mile per year. Only to find at the end, they cannot competently read or write. Or just barely so.

    No, given the society we inherited, children probably require even more time and energy now, compared with before. Oh, and plopping a kid in front of a TV or video-game, isn't exactly 'raising' children. Do you have any idea at how many children start school unable to read the alphabet? It's a lot.
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Gemeinsam Finden Wir Antwoten Kostenlos Vertraulich Rund Um Die Uhn.

    Markus Koth, Federal Criminal Police of Germany spokesman, stated that women should trust their intuition. You know, if, as a woman, you come across a group of [immigrant] men or a situation that seems to pose a risk, you should avoid the situation, be ready to take “detours” and get help from a police officer in the area.

    Hmmmm, this is dangerously close to dog whistling to the racists AND being sexist.
    ** brackets, my inclusion.

    Mark continues (more directly): However, if these precautions do not work and the woman finds herself under attack by “asylum seekers”, she must be prepared to defend herself “with courage and determination” by screaming in a loud voice to “please call the police”.

    LOL... Mark does like his Mansplaning doens't he

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    Note: Mark will have to work on his advice in the future, Asylums Seekers Lives Matter

    How's this sound? Germans work hard, pay taxes, and then give jobs to asylum seekers based on ethnicity, or gender, or skin color or religious belief - but not on aptitude. Not on individual ability. How's that sound? Perdy Smert? Little Hans doesn't get to attend University - sorry. Wrong arbitrary attribute.


    Oh, and when you're not paying for your kids to be excluded from University (see the racist standards held for American Asians to attend US Universities) you can pay for generational welfare ghettos, Government schools with 20% functional illiteracy rates from their graduates, PIC bailing out criminal bankers and endless war. THEN, find the courage to blame Koch Industries, oh, I mean Volkswagen and vote for Change You Can Believe In.


    In the meantime, here are other tips that were given are:
    • Wear sneakers instead of high heels, so you can run away.
    • Don’t be alone, but travel in groups of at least two or three.
    • Avoid alcohol and drugs.
    • If you drink, it’s best to drink from a bottle.
    • Be aware and observant of your surroundings.
    • If you are assaulted, don’t be a victim. Take action by aiming at your attacker’s genitals, joints, eyes, nose, and ears where you can inflict the greatest pain.
    Of course, no American would think twice about taking all of the above precautions. Those are just the beginning Germany. Soon you'll look just like the USA, and for the exact same reasons. I'm fairly certain, you'll eventually have the right to carry a gun too.

    Enjoy The Narrative

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    Last edited: Sep 15, 2016
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member


    Want to know where this NEVER happens?

    Want to know where this ALWAYS happens, in every city, everywhere and all the time?
    The USA

    As I understand it, by the early 2020's (not long from now) there'll be more non-ethnic Germans aged 18 - 35 then actual Germans. Let's see how that works out for you Germany. Oh, and you may want to reconsider your right to own a hand gun. Calling out for the police isn't going help you when you're surrounded by a group of men ready to rape your 15 year old daughter. Or a group of men kick in your door. Just a thought.
  18. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Because God knows no real German every raped anyone.
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    No: easily paid for them. The people who stopped having children were the ones who could best afford them - without debt, if they chose. Your argument, that people stopped having children because the cost of entitlements for others took all their money, is in conflict with demographic fact. You can argue that they chose to buy three SUVs and twice the house that they needed, instead of having children, but not that they were impoverished by entitlements and the welfare State. They weren't.

    No, it doesn't.

    In particular, it happens due to immigrant overload almost nowhere in the US - a few places in a very large country have any such problem.
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    The point isn't that a very small minority of ethnic Germans rape other Germans. They do. The same is true in Japan. A very very very VERY small number of Japanese attack other Japanese. Insanity exists everywhere - in all societies.

    But guess what?
    It's very common to see Japanese school children, as young as 6 years old, walking down the street to the train station, taking a 30 - 40 minute ride into the city, exiting the station and walking a few blocks to their school. Alone.

    I know parents in America who won't even let their children walk down the street at age 6 - hell, you'd probably have your children taken from you (by the State - for the Good of Society, and The Roads) if you allowed your 6 year old to walk a few blocks, in an American city, at age 6 - alone.
    It's literally unthinkable for most of America. That's something Japanese don't have to worry about. While, in American cities, you'd best put steal bars on your doors and windows if you live in a large city - AND there's plenty of neighborhoods (entire areas of a city) where you'd be outright killed for making the mistake of venturing in uninvited. And you sure as hell are not going out at night. Such a problem doesn't exist in Japan.

    Thanks to Germany, I don't anticipate such problems happening to 'real' Japanese, anytime too soon.
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    That's not what my argument is. My argument is that Central Banking distorted the price/value mechanisms Germans used to project into the future, thus altering their (then) behaviors. No one CAN have enough information to really know what the future will be like - that's why we need sound money. Germans came to believe they would not be required to have children in order to secure their future. That information was not correct. I promise you, if Germans were informed that if they did not have any children - they'd never be allowed to retire, ever. Then more would have had children.

    Central Banking and Statism distorted this information. As an anecdotal, I know Germans who are, when not gazing into the lint in their belly button waffling on about how we live in a supercomputer, have ZERO understanding of the world around them - everything is 'free' and everything will always be 'free' forever. Not a care in the world. The State will be there to take care of them for the rest of their lives. They are 100% true blue Statist Authoritarians.

    You'd fit right in.

    So, let's see how it works out for them. I'm guessing, not so good.

    Anyway, if you like Londonstan, then you're fine. Some people will love the new multicultural Germany. Particularly an economic-immigrant/refugee on welfare. I mean, what could be better? Free housing, free electricity, free food, free schooling, free medical and once your four wives come over, you can have all the children you could ever hope to produce for the glory of Sky-Daddy-O.
    AND, get this, once you're a Citizen you get to bring over your entire family and their extended family and marry all the cousins you can and they can each live in a free house too! You're a hero. A Warrior for Gawd!


    Yes, Germany and Sweden; The Socialist's "Democratic" Progressive Paradises.

    Oh, and as to how the movie ends, well.... if you want to see another Workers' Paradise, you needn't go to Venezuela or North Korea, just visit Detroit. That's your future Germany and Sweden. Detroit.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member


    In many so-called "Islamic" countries, women are murdered, harassed and/or raped for not wearing the Hijab. I personally think it should be the immigrants who should be culturally sensitive and adopt the Ethnic Germans traditions and dress. They should attempt to model their behaviours, ideas, language and possibly even beliefs - to align with their new Germanic adopted country's. The one that they chose to migrate to, specifically because of it's German heritage - which has provided all of the resources needed TO adopt refugees.

    Or, Germans can adopt a set of superstitious practices from a Bronze Age religion that has formed the cultural backbone of most of the mess that is, and has been for over a thousand years, the Middle East.

    Yes, lets see how cultural relativism works out for you Germany. Another fine example you'll make of yourselves.
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Then you shouldn't have posted it. That's what you posted, and what I objected to, and what you defended, and what I repeated again my objection to.
    Here it is again, to jog your memory:
    That isn't true. Retirement in modern industrial economies is most easily paid for by taxing part of the increase in productivity brought about by investment during their lifetime of work. Bringing in a bunch of low wage low productivity hires doesn't work nearly as well.

    Once again - just to remind you of physical reality - both Sweden and Germany have capitalist economies. They are both industrial corporate capitalist countries, and they have been for many decades now.

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